625 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Mao of DC, on 15 December 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

I don't know if you read the command chair about clans tech but it looks like the nerf isn't going to be to bad.

Are you joking? Lights that can't get above 100kph? No upgradable armour on the Summoner? At a minimum 2/3 of the Clan mechs will be DOA under those rules.

[Mao of DC]

Gaan Cathal, on 15 December 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Are you joking? Lights that can't get above 100kph? No upgradable armour on the Summoner? At a minimum 2/3 of the Clan mechs will be DOA under those rules.

I guess you never heard of MASC it should get the lights over 100kph. You are also assuming that not of the light will have a large enough engines I call BS on that. As far as the armor and such goes that is the price you pay for slightly better weapons and the ability to pick and chose your hardpoints. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

[T0rmented]

ok so they are nerfing the TT values i get that, those values are blatently OP, but their tech is still going to be better, even if its not quite as many points better as it was. This still makes it so that anyone without clan tech will still be at a disadvantage to anyone with that tech. Game still becomes an arms race for the better guns nothing has actually been affected by the devs attempts at change. Nerf counts for nothing.

[Jakob Knight]

Something to understand with all the info put out so far. It is still a minimum of six months from implementation. That is six months of changes to look forwards to.

We have all seen how the Devs think nothing of changing what they have said on nothing more than a whim. I think we can count on this not being the final version in any realistic sense. For one thing, I believe they have radically underestimated the advantages half-weight equipment can produce (LRM20 instead of LRM10? AC/20 instead of AC/10?). For another, they have a history of caving in to crying mobs (unless the mobs have a point that goes against what the Devs have decided they really like), so it is very possible we will see Clan mechs with full customization as well as half-weight weapons thrown against equal-weight, equal-number IS forces and called 'fair'.

At this point, all we are seeing are proposals and ideas, all put out in order to sell a huge expense package that no one really knows how it will be actually implemented. Will Clan players have to be restricted to only certain matches? Will they find their Omnimech purchases not usable with Factions? Will they discover the final result is a stable of mechs that work completely different from the way they are portrayed now, when they purchased them?

Right now, the restrictions that seem to be in place (engine being set in stone, needing multiple mech purchases to enable limited hardpoint changeout options) -may- counterbalance the huge advantages of being able to change out hardpoints to make optimal builds, access to half-tonnage weapons that are more effective than IS models, and the very real possibility that the XL engines the Clan mechs come with may -not- end up being vunerable to torso destruction as in IS mechs. We just do not know enough at the moment to say.

So, I would say wait until we have more info before deciding how balanced or unbalanced this all is, and only purchase the packages if you are a ) absolutely, fanatically sure you will want Clan mechs in any form and b ) are a gambler who will accept the possibility that you may end up with less than you bet for when the dice finally stop rolling.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 15 December 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Well, the reduced weight (you cannot change it unless you want to rewrite ALL the canon configurations) will not have such great impact because you cannot reduce your legs armor or even mount a small engine or less than a fixed number of heatsinks (this will work against the feared ballistic build, to mount an UAC/20 you need tonnage but you do not need so much heat sinks, now if you have for example 15 minimum heatsinks which cannot be removed well you cannot free tonnage which will likely be useless if you run a "cold" build.

[Gaan Cathal]

Mao of DC, on 15 December 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

I guess you never heard of MASC it should get the lights over 100kph. You are also assuming that not of the light will have a large enough engines I call BS on that.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page

Go look up the Kit Fox and the Adder. They have a speed of 97.3kph with their stock engine. There is only one engine, since it doesn't change with config. Ergo...no, it's not BS.

And MASC doesn't exist, and will up the minimum speed for effective lights once it does.

And, to counterpoint your derpy 'loose armour to gain firepower' argument - that's why armour has weight. Compare the Timber Wolf (decent armour and engine heavy) with the Summoner (decent engine, paper armour). Summoner is DOA because Timber Wolf, even asides from the IS mechs that will be far more flexible than it.

[Shephard]

DI3T3R, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

On the one side, we have the IS-Mechs we know and love/hate/both.

Then, one day Clan-Mechs get introduced. They are faster, more flexible, more durable, have more firepower. Real killers. Everybody will want to have one, so their use has to be restricted or discouraged in some way.

But why do this with nerfing them? The Clans always fight outnumbered, why not go the extreme in this one?

10vs12? Why not 5vs12 or 5vs16 or 10vs18?
If people want to play Clanners, why not make them fight hordes upon hordes of inferior and dishonorable enemies until it's no longer funny?

A Cluster against a Regimental Combat Team? Outnumbered in Mechs 1:2 and outnumbered overall 1:18?
Why not?

This is perhaps one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Since you've posted this in the clan forum, I can only assume you plan to play as a clanner. But really, just how many players do you really think will want to play for the IS side in these 5v16 games knowing full well that their equipment is vastly inferior? The answer is very, very few.

This suggestion, if implemented, will kill the game.

[dragnier1]

DI3T3R, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

On the one side, we have the IS-Mechs we know and love/hate/both.

Then, one day Clan-Mechs get introduced. They are faster, more flexible, more durable, have more firepower. Real killers. Everybody will want to have one, so their use has to be restricted or discouraged in some way.

But why do this with nerfing them? The Clans always fight outnumbered, why not go the extreme in this one?

10vs12? Why not 5vs12 or 5vs16 or 10vs18?
If people want to play Clanners, why not make them fight hordes upon hordes of inferior and dishonorable enemies until it's no longer funny?

A Cluster against a Regimental Combat Team? Outnumbered in Mechs 1:2 and outnumbered overall 1:18?
Why not?

I had this thought, with clans implemented as original and no ghost heat. Someone really good takes 4 cerppcs and clrms 80. He can solo 1 v 12 and win.

Now picture yourself in the receiving end, for each round you play, for many months.

Edited by dragnier1, 16 December 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Gaan Cathal, on 15 December 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page

Go look up the Kit Fox and the Adder. They have a speed of 97.3kph with their stock engine. There is only one engine, since it doesn't change with config. Ergo...no, it's not BS.

And MASC doesn't exist, and will up the minimum speed for effective lights once it does.

But there is Speed Tweak..

[DI3T3R]

CyclonerM, on 16 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

But there is Speed Tweak..

Uller and Adder are for starters only, I have no doubt, they will eventually add Mist Lynx and Fire Moth.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gaan Cathal, on 15 December 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page

Go look up the Kit Fox and the Adder. They have a speed of 97.3kph with their stock engine. There is only one engine, since it doesn't change with config. Ergo...no, it's not BS.

And MASC doesn't exist, and will up the minimum speed for effective lights once it does.

And, to counterpoint your derpy 'loose armour to gain firepower' argument - that's why armour has weight. Compare the Timber Wolf (decent armour and engine heavy) with the Summoner (decent engine, paper armour). Summoner is DOA because Timber Wolf, even asides from the IS mechs that will be far more flexible than it.

This is due to the Clan streamlining destruction. But IF (his is a big one too I know) A Omni has "Omni Pod" that I would assume will allow for any mix of weapons to be used so long as they fit the slot limitation of the Pod. SO a little less speed and armor, for the ability to have More flexibility in weapon choice.

I take off an AC20 and I have to put on another Ballistic. An Omni takes off an AC20 and can replace it with a ERPPC and a LRM15!

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 December 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

I take off an AC20 and I have to put on another Ballistic. An Omni takes off an AC20 and can replace it with a ERPPC and a LRM15!

LRM 10 in case of MWO because Paul said he thinks about increasing the weight for launchers....and we all know - it may be only a rough concept - but in the end it would happen:
Clan LRM 20 weight 7.5t
Clan LRM 15 weight 5t
Clan LRM 10 weight 2.5t
Clan LRm 5 weigh 1.25t

OH oho regarding 2.5t...what about machine guns -
not to forget abot the change of HPs to generate Hardpoint - Franken Mechs

The best solution of an Omni would have been to make it [optional] - keep it an Omni with some drawbacks - if it is still an Omni - you could change the variants on the ready screen - when you know on wich map you will fight. This simple choice allone would have made Omni Mechs outstanding....

but like the Clan Mechlab is supposed to work - its worse - its feels like: HEY OmniMech must behave different - it must be different - at all costs

Edited by Karl Streiger, 16 December 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[The Boneshaman]

whene clan tech comes out will it be able to buy them the first day or we waiting? will they allow clan tech on IS mechs? sorry i havent been keeping up on this post and dot feel like reading 13 pages. im lazy

[Karl Streiger]

The Boneshaman, on 16 December 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

whene clan tech comes out will it be able to buy them the first day or we waiting? will they allow clan tech on IS mechs? sorry i havent been keeping up on this post and dot feel like reading 13 pages. im lazy

Nobody knows
or in other words:
when Clan Tech is to powerfull nobody want to play IS
it it is to weak + not min/maxing of Clan Mech upgrades and engine nobody want to play Clan
...
...
...

Edited by Karl Streiger, 16 December 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Karl Streiger, on 16 December 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

it it is to weak + not min/maxing of Clan Mech upgrades and engine nobody want to play Clan

I would play Clan anyway.

[Karl Streiger]

CyclonerM, on 16 December 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

I would play Clan anyway.

As i would for IS - or Clan Wolverine

[CyclonerM]

Karl Streiger, on 16 December 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

As i would for IS - or Not-Named-Clan

Fixed. I did it for you, some hardcore traditionalist Clan warrior might have you Abjured or executed for it

Also, sorry but there is no Minnesota Tribe faction -yet-

As usually, i feel very good when i see some Inner Sphere veterans who love the old good Sphere and will not betray it for a few shining Clan 'Mechs (read also "Joseph Mallan").

If you were not a Blakist (as i assume by your sig) AKA space terrorist (just like Errodien, you know?) i may have added you to the list of honorable Inner Sphere warriors i will be honored to meet in combat

[Void Angel]

DI3T3R, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

On the one side, we have the IS-Mechs we know and love/hate/both.

Then, one day Clan-Mechs get introduced. They are faster, more flexible, more durable, have more firepower. Real killers. Everybody will want to have one, so their use has to be restricted or discouraged in some way.

But why do this with nerfing them? The Clans always fight outnumbered, why not go the extreme in this one?

10vs12? Why not 5vs12 or 5vs16 or 10vs18?
If people want to play Clanners, why not make them fight hordes upon hordes of inferior and dishonorable enemies until it's no longer funny?

A Cluster against a Regimental Combat Team? Outnumbered in Mechs 1:2 and outnumbered overall 1:18?
Why not?

So one side bestrides the earth like the gods of old, and the other side tries to swarm them down like jackals against a lion? That's only going to be fun for one side, excepting a small population of masochists and die-hard roleplayers. Any system of asymmetric team sizes is going to have that problem to some degree, and implementing the Clans' supertechnology as-written will require a lot more disparity in forces than a mere 10v12. It's not like tabletop where you can balance it out using point values and army-building rules. You can't do that here - it's the format, combined with the amazing power Clan technology. Mechwarrior Tactics could use force asymmetry to balance the Clans - MWO cannot.

What's the real problem here, anyway? It's not really a roleplaying issue, as I've seen claimed. If you want to roleplay the Clans, roleplay them. But if your definition of "roleplay" has to include having an unfair advantage in gameplay, you've slid off of RP Mountain and fallen into the Chasm of Munchkin Power-Gaming.

[CyclonerM]

Void Angel, on 16 December 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

What's the real problem here, anyway? It's not really a roleplaying issue, as I've seen claimed. If you want to roleplay the Clans, roleplay them. But if your definition of "roleplay" has to include having an unfair advantage in gameplay, you've slid off of RP Mountain and fallen into the Chasm of Munchkin Power-Gaming.

Unfair? The Clans developed their own new weapons while the Great Houses where trying to conquer each other's realm

Jokes aside, Clan warriors fear not the challenge, they seek it. We just want that our 'Mechs and weapons have their unique characteristics if they have to be nerfed, and indeed they have in some way.. It could have been worse.

But i really want 10vs12, reflecting bidding against a supposedly inferior force and Clan organization based on 5.

[Void Angel]

I can see the 10v12 - I was kind of hoping for that situation myself, but it doesn't really fit with the game format. What about mercenaries who have both sets of tech? Do they have to choose between Adjective Animal and Inner Sphere 'mechs on a per-match basis? It just seems to have too many issues to be worth it overall.

As far as Clan tech needing to be unique, I absolutely agree with you, and so does PGI. The question asked in the OP, though, is "why does it have to be nerfed?" The answer seems obvious.