540 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Tenpin, on 27 January 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

I thought I'd share my stats. Whether the stats provide any evidence of the Matchmaker/ELO providing balance or not is still open to discussion but I think my sampling is large enough to account for any system-based averaging to have had an effect..

I only play in PUGs, I do not drop in premades, and I have only dropped with other players a handful of times. By handful I mean less than 30 times.

Here are my stats for ONE mech:
RVN-3L

2,478 matches.
Wins:1,286
Losses:1.182
W/L ratio: 1.09
K/D ratio: .97

Statistically ALMOST 50/50

You win a bit more than you lose and you die a bit more than you kill.

[IceCase88]

Here is an idea. All of you crying about regularly being rolled friend each other and form some premades. Problem solved. You can have competitive matches which are under 12-6. If the match ends quickly and little damage is done by one team then that is not a competitive match. Being rolled cannot be avoided. There cannot be socialist results, aka victory redistribution. All that can be done is to set the playing field with the same mechs available and the same weapons available. After that it all depends and the players as well as the team. There are too many variables that throw the odds in favor of one team like the pilot tree, mech tree, pilot skill, purchased equipment, etc.. Maybe you have a player piloting mechs that have not been basic'ed yet or a player with his mech mastered. There are too many variables to take into account to blame matchmaker or lack of tonnage limits for failures. Rolls can and will happen. Suck it up and move on. Desync from the crowd that is getting rolled by waiting a few minutes between matches.

[MischiefSC]

Not all premades have an advantage. I have some friends that when we do drop together we get rolled - mercilessly. I've got other friends I drop with and do amazingly well. Hell, I got to tag along in some 12mans the other day and we CRUSHED every match save one and we dropped for a while.

Being a premade isn't a huge advantage. It's significant but just like dropping in pugs, YMMV.

Best answer is getting good and, well, honestly? Learning to ride the meta if you want to win.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Not all premades have an advantage. I have some friends that when we do drop together we get rolled - mercilessly. I've got other friends I drop with and do amazingly well. Hell, I got to tag along in some 12mans the other day and we CRUSHED every match save one and we dropped for a while.

Being a premade isn't a huge advantage. It's significant but just like dropping in pugs, YMMV.

Best answer is getting good and, well, honestly? Learning to ride the meta if you want to win.

I agree with just about all of this. My one exception is learn how to fight the Meta and be happy if you reach about 50/50 against it.

[Mudhutwarrior]

IceCase88, on 27 January 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Here is an idea. All of you crying about regularly being rolled friend each other and form some premades. Problem solved. You can have competitive matches which are under 12-6. If the match ends quickly and little damage is done by one team then that is not a competitive match. Being rolled cannot be avoided. There cannot be socialist results, aka victory redistribution. All that can be done is to set the playing field with the same mechs available and the same weapons available. After that it all depends and the players as well as the team. There are too many variables that throw the odds in favor of one team like the pilot tree, mech tree, pilot skill, purchased equipment, etc.. Maybe you have a player piloting mechs that have not been basic'ed yet or a player with his mech mastered. There are too many variables to take into account to blame matchmaker or lack of tonnage limits for failures. Rolls can and will happen. Suck it up and move on. Desync from the crowd that is getting rolled by waiting a few minutes between matches.

You left out the biggest one. Voip is overpowered when compared to the keyboard. I can think of several instances every match where I could have communicated if I didn't have to stop to type.

Funny how you guys always miss the most powerful tool in the game pugs dont get.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 27 January 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

You left out the biggest one. Voip is overpowered when compared to the keyboard. I can think of several instances every match where I could have communicated if I didn't have to stop to type.

Funny how you guys always miss the most powerful tool in the game pugs dont get use.

FTFY PUGs can get that tool, all they have to do is download TS3 like the groups have and then use the servers that are set up for their use.

I however agree about the whole typing thing... You'd think that I'd be a good typist with all the post I make. Not so. not in the least.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[Sandpit]

Mudhutwarrior, on 27 January 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

You left out the biggest one. Voip is overpowered when compared to the keyboard. I can think of several instances every match where I could have communicated if I didn't have to stop to type.

Funny how you guys always miss the most powerful tool in the game pugs dont get.

Nobody forgets it (mainly because you post it every thread about once a page). it's that it doesn't matter to the discussion. This topic is "Every game is a stomp". Read that title. it's simply untrue.
Also, this is about premades vs. pugs, not voip.
Voip is sorely needed but it's not available in-game. Repeating that line for the 1000th time doesn't change the fact that it's not in game yet. So you have two options.
Join a TS server
or
Type

[MischiefSC]

Are we honestly going to say that everyone on VOIP is calling targets? Saying 'help! I'm being ***** by a Commando back here!' is still going to leave your team with no clue as to WHERE YOU ARE. Even that's more communication than most groups do. Situational awareness and paying attention to the map will pretty much do anything VOIP will do 90% of the time.

The exception being highly competitive 12mans and the like, but that's not how it's played 99% of the time anyway.

The advantage of a premade is being familiar with 1/3rd of your team, every single match. That's significant. Anyone can do that.

[wanderer]

Quote

All of you crying about regularly being rolled friend each other and form some premades

So in other words, the solution for getting beaten up by premades is "be a premade". Isn't this basically saying "be in a premade or be rolled by a premade?"- or "PUGs are a failure from game start against any significant level of outside organization?"

Because it's true. PUG play and play in premades are fundamentally incompatible. One is a game that involves organized tactics, optimized focus, and dependable team-mates.

The PUG is a random man in a random mob at the mercy of the premade, for his backup is random and disorganized at best.

PUGs determine victory on who manages to lose by being the -most- disorganized, usually in random patterns that resemble Brownian motion if observed on maps. The survivor of the random collisions is the winner.

Premades instead tend to function until their organized capacity to support each other is literally bludgeoned away by firepower. PUG matches frequently end with a disoriented, shell-shocked loner running like a decapitated chicken as the other team plows them under. Usually that starts with 5 or so loners and they just whittle them down.

Premades have always stomped PUGs, having a major advantage over their opponents. VOIP-using premades are easily worth an extra 'Mech for each player and provide an unfair, unpredictable by MM advantage that cannot be balanced for- unless it is removed entirely.

Put a random delay in from when people hit "Launch" to actually being in queue to kill sync dropping and put premade groups in their own queue- which will -only- take solos after it's failed to find any premades that can fill the gaps...and PUGs have their own queue entirely in which no organized group can enter (hopefully with random "de-sync" for entry that'll castrate attempts to cheat the system.).

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 27 January 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

So in other words, the solution for getting beaten up by premades is "be a premade".

Actually, the solution is stop blaming premades for losses. That's step 1.
Step 2 would be use better teamwork and coordination.

Look at the thread title and then tell me that's a legitimate statement.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 27 January 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

So in other words, the solution for getting beaten up by premades is "be a premade". Isn't this basically saying "be in a premade or be rolled by a premade?"- or "PUGs are a failure from game start against any significant level of outside organization?"

Because it's true. PUG play and play in premades are fundamentally incompatible. One is a game that involves organized tactics, optimized focus, and dependable team-mates.

The PUG is a random man in a random mob at the mercy of the premade, for his backup is random and disorganized at best.

PUGs determine victory on who manages to lose by being the -most- disorganized, usually in random patterns that resemble Brownian motion if observed on maps. The survivor of the random collisions is the winner.

Premades instead tend to function until their organized capacity to support each other is literally bludgeoned away by firepower. PUG matches frequently end with a disoriented, shell-shocked loner running like a decapitated chicken as the other team plows them under. Usually that starts with 5 or so loners and they just whittle them down.

Premades have always stomped PUGs, having a major advantage over their opponents. VOIP-using premades are easily worth an extra 'Mech for each player and provide an unfair, unpredictable by MM advantage that cannot be balanced for- unless it is removed entirely.

Put a random delay in from when people hit "Launch" to actually being in queue to kill sync dropping and put premade groups in their own queue- which will -only- take solos after it's failed to find any premades that can fill the gaps...and PUGs have their own queue entirely in which no organized group can enter (hopefully with random "de-sync" for entry that'll castrate attempts to cheat the system.).

That was supposed t be a Cyberman not a PUG.

[DaZur]

The funny thing about the clamor for VoIP is that the presumption that it being "in-game" would automatically fix things.

It's the ol' Lead a horse to water thing ...

The odd presumption is that everyone is going to suddenly step up and toe the line and be obedient and cooperative teammates, when it's proven even given the right information and tools... players will still wander off aimlessly and get themselves killed.

Edited by DaZur, 27 January 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Just throwing this out there...

I almost exclusively PUG (99%) of the time. I do not use VOIP (I type enemy movements or if I am going back to base, etc...)

Win/Loss
1,245 / 1,271

(1.43 KDR if it matters)

My win to loss ratio is almost 50% exactly since stat tracking was implemented.

Yes PUG stomping happens a descent amount (for sure), but ultimately you end up about even in the long run as a PUG with no VOIP.

Just thought I would mention my experience after seeing all these posts about how beat up PUGs get with no VOIP. VOIP would be nice if implemented and I would use it if it was, but really things should work out about even at the least in the long run. PUGs shouldn't be loosing more games than they are winning by a HUGE margin.

[Ngamok]

DaZur, on 27 January 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

The funny thing about the clamor for VoIP is that the presumption that it being "in-game" would automatically fix things.

It's the ol' Lead a horse to water thing ...

The odd presumption is that everyone is going to suddenly step up and toe the line and be obedient and cooperative teammates, when it's proven even given the right information and tools... players will still wander off aimlessly and get themselves killed.

Exactly. There is VOIP in some games but there are people who still will turn it off or down and nothing changes for those people. You tell someone now hey so and so you are by yourself in D3. They won't turn around. They'll see something and chase it and die and disconnect shortly after.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Comms and speedy intel are at the core of every military unit. Except here there is no reason for them.

Give em up if they are not important to you then.

Really they do take people for {Surat} most often.

[Ngamok]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 January 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Just throwing this out there...

I almost exclusively PUG (99%) of the time. I do not use VOIP (I type enemy movements or if I am going back to base, etc...)

Win/Loss
1,245 / 1,271

(1.43 KDR if it matters)

My win to loss ratio is almost 50% exactly since stat tracking was implemented.

Yes PUG stomping happens a descent amount (for sure), but ultimately you end up about even in the long run as a PUG with no VOIP.

Just thought I would mention my experience after seeing all these posts about how beat up PUGs get with no VOIP. VOIP would be nice if implemented and I would use it if it was, but really things should work out about even at the least in the long run. PUGs shouldn't be loosing more games than they are winning by a HUGE margin.

Wins / Losses 3,324 / 3,244

My main problem is that on Friday I am usually drinking a lot and I wind up losing more than I win and have to rely on rest of team to carry me. I'll be that guy that just runs at something because my hand / eye coordination is eyeing my beer or bourbon or rum.

Edit: I am also distracted because I gave a group of friends that get together on Friday and shoot the chat while drinking and talking about the good old days of gaming together.

Edited by Ngamok, 27 January 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 27 January 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Comms and speedy intel are at the core of every military unit. Except here there is no reason for them.

Give em up if they are not important to you then.

Really they do take people for {Surat} most often.

I have.

Come to the Dark Side Mud.

we have Beer!

[Sandpit]

DaZur, on 27 January 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

The funny thing about the clamor for VoIP is that the presumption that it being "in-game" would automatically fix things.

It's the ol' Lead a horse to water thing ...

The odd presumption is that everyone is going to suddenly step up and toe the line and be obedient and cooperative teammates, when it's proven even given the right information and tools... players will still wander off aimlessly and get themselves killed.

Oh, have no doubts. it wouldn't change much but it WOULD stop all the "premades have voip and that's the only reason they win" tagline

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Oh, have no doubts. it wouldn't change much but it WOULD stop all the "premades have voip and that's the only reason they win" tagline

Pre mades have more experience working together so they are stomping VOiP users still!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Mischief I track my matches so its not anecdotal or exaggerated. It is a terrible matchmaker. I can change my win/loss the moment I start dropping in 4mans. It dramatically increases. In 4mans I can usually get upto a 3/1 or 4/1 win/loss. As a pug unless I drop assaults and heavies it is impossible to maintain a 1/1 win/loss at the moment. Especially not after skirmish was introduced.
...

In that case, I must rock. I pug 97+% of the time, and I carry a 1.04 W/L (since they turned on stats anyway).

And 170 of those matches were in Locusts if you want to call out worthless builds.