343 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Craig Steele, on 11 March 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

No, what I am doing is I'm ignoring a tangent argument that does not address the point.

You are wrong because both Nicholas and Leo enjoyed the support of the Grand Council, the united will of all the Clans, ergo they acted in accordance with the will of the Clans. We can argue the merits of that sure but it doesn't matter a jacks proverbial because even if they were both traitors, it doesn't change that Ulric DID NOT have the support of the Grand Council for his actions and WAS a traitor to the Clans.

Show me in your extensive library a canon source that demonstrates that Ulric's sabotage of the Clans Invasion was the will of the Grand Council (I honestly doubt you can, but happy to be guided)

You want to make tangent arguments that go no where, I want to debate the point. That's the only 'convenience' here.

If you cannot debate the point you want to belittle me, sure I get that. Attack the man because if you make me look silly ergo you are right.

You are not, and your tangent arguments serve no purpose except to distract.

EDIT: Actually while I am here, whats your Canon source that Nicholas manilpulated the Grand Council? I'd be interested to review that. Thanks

The source books I have state that the charges were drummed up by Crusaders desiring to dethrone Ulric by means of coersion. They also state, that only by a mere technicality and an extremely tenuous argument were they even able to get anything to stick.

Their charges that stuck, if you recall, were based on the fact that he was diluting the gene pool of Clan Wolf for experienced warriors by agreeing to uphold the agreement with the IS. The argument was based on the principle that in 15 years when the truce was up, the blood lines would be somehow "weakened" by the lack of combat with the IS for 15 years and there would be no combat experienced veterans left to lead.

Now, through the 250 or so years to this point, this has never held water, as the clans are constantly fighting trials and combating each other over honor and all sorts of other things. The ONLY reason those charges stuck, were because the council consisted, at that point, of 9 crusaders and 7 wardens. Additionally, if you recall, the vote against Ulric was NOT unanimous, indeed, the Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, Wolves and several others were dissenters. It was only on the last day that the Jade Falcons were able to succeed in getting a 9-7 majority vote to cast him out. At which point Ulric declared a Trial of Refusal that would become the refusal war.

Through the entire invasion, the Grand Council was fine with Ulric, so much so THEY PRAISED HIS WORK on NUMEROUS occasions. Yet he was betraying them as you say? You can argue this all you want, but do not omit the basic facts and point to circumstantial evidence as significant proof.

Additionally, Clan Wolf was so superior at this time, they were the fastest advancing Clan THROUGH ALL WAVES...say what you want about the worlds they took, The Ghost Bears had less opposition and took fewer worlds and sustained more losses during their invasion.

All this from canon sources, yet you consistently are adamant that Clan Wolf was weak? So, the Ghost Bears, who fought less RCT size forces than Clan Wolf took fewer worlds, advanced more slowly and lost more warriors...but they were the strong Warden Clan?

Additionally, based on your information earlier, the Smoke Jaguars encountered similar number of RCT sized forces as Clan Wolf, and yet advanced more slowly, took fewer worlds, and lost more warriors as well.

So which is it? They had a weak corridor and fought no one (not true)? Or, is it more likely your skewed view point over looks facts which are openly available in YOUR sources, and not convenient for your argument?

As for my sources, I have a lot of books on .pdf I would not even bother to begin naming them...dare I say I may have them all.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 March 2014 - 10:28 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 11 March 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Know what? Not reading that (1). And you wouldn't know canon if it bit you in the test tube rear end.

You don't argue about canon. You argue about the facts you've so deeply twisted (2).


PS: Read the back of your Clan Wolf: Source Book. http://www.sarna.net...Clan_Sourcebook
"In 2784, General Aleksandr Kerensky led his loyal followers out of the Inner Sphere and into exile, far away from the strife and chaos of the Succession Wars.
In 2815, his son Nicholas founded the Clans.
In 3049, the Clans returned to the Inner Sphere, determined to avenge their forefathers and restore the glory of the long-vanished Star League.
This sourcebook gives a complete history and cultural description of Clan Wolf, one of the most prominent Clans and the one that bears the name of Kerensky himself. Included is a post-Tukayyid roster of the Wolf touman and personal profiles of important Wolf leaders."


Also, as added bonus: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolf
"Clan Wolf proved themselves expert warriors: they annihilated Clan Wolverine and absorbed Clan Widowmaker, long before their successes in the invasion of the Inner Sphere."



Shall we continue on this? Or shall I place you on my ignore list (3) now and save myself the trouble of doing it after your next post? You'll have the honors of being the first, and only, person on my ignore list if this is the case. (Which should say something.)
(Also, if you really want to see something special. Look at the posts that are liked. Either, you are presenting twisted facts (possible, but unlikely I think), or your presentation stinks to the high heavens. Either way, I don't see you getting very many likes in this thread. Personally, I think it's more presentation and personality.)

Spoiler

Let me help you. You started off good, but totaled 20 likes in all. After page 4, when we started to question you, you stopped getting any likes at all. From page 4 to page 7, you received no likes. You started posting from the first page on.

I started posting on page 3. Excluding Shar (as any likes from him might be from our previous meetings on the forums, so out of fairness), I got a total of 20 likes. Remember. I started to posted after you did. I also excluded Shar Wolf's likes. I also made less posts overall... (And Shar Wolf, for the record, liked your earlier posts, but I counted him into your likes.)

I did not count how many people individually liked our posts (4), just how many likes they received in general. Though the Like system isn't perfect, and probably not the greatest indicator, but I'd say it should show you a little something. Also, from my observations, Koniving, CyclonerM and a couple other faces I saw in here are very high lore buffs. They started off liking your posts, which tells me that you had good information to start with. They also liked my posts, which tells me I presented good information to. Also, me and CyclonerM have clashed before on these forums, and I wouldn't say we get along overly well. So I take his liking my posts as "OH MY GOODNESS! HE LIKED MY POSTS!" I take these likes that were given out to say that your information is/was good to start out, and probably is still good. But your closed mindedness (5), presentation, and poor attitude afterwards when someone challenged your position has since shown your posts to have a corrupted view of things. You are argumentative and everything you don't agree with becomes "That isn't canon, and I don't argue non-canon" (6) or "I only look at and consider canon" or "I only present canon with no personal affiliations or bias". (You also love the "Warts and all" expression. ) These are blatant escapes from the tougher parts of this discussion that conflict with your personal views on Clan Wolf in general, and thus, you are ignoring the evidence presented before you (7).

"Ergo" I continue to say, Clan Wolf was not weak.

(1) Of course not, why read it when you know you still don't have an argument. You should read it, I make concessions to you. But yeah you might have to admit your non canon world has flaws when compared to canon sources.

(2) facts are facts, opinions get twisted. Facts are still facts and you have no basis to dispute them. I can dispute your opinions quite easily because my opinion is based on facts (of a fantasy sci fi universe of course)

(3) Do as you will. I'm not going to cry about it. You want a fantasy world based on non canon sources that suits your ideal world, I prefer a detailed canon view of all sides strengths and weaknesses. I'm quite happy to be right in this instance. Personally I don't use ignore lists cause you never know if someone has something worthwhile in the future but it's certainly a function thats there for you.

(4) Seriously? How juvenile is this deduction. How many likes. Well lets see. I am in a Clan Wolf Forum telling Clan Wolf fan boys that their long cherished idea of military excellence has no basis in canon and you think that because you get more likes defeding that view with non canon sources it's a measure of your accuracy? Oh dear, really you should have thought about that before you posted it. Or are you really that arrogant that you think you know why people press the "like" button? I mean seriously?

(5) Oh you mean like, "shall I just ignore you now or when I get your next post" or perhaps, "I have bothered to read it" cause I know what you're saying anyway. Yeah. I can see how MY close mindedness must really be an issue for you.

(6) Thats a fallacy based on your emotion. Go reread. I point out the difference between a canon argument and a non canon opinion and invite you to make a canon based argument rather than a fantasy one and somehow I am argumentative? If anything you're argumentative trying to prove a point without any supporting evidence. Isn't that the definition of argumentaive? Arguing for no reason with no basis?

(7) Can't be evidence if its not a fact. Small distinction I know, but pretty important one cause I can (and will) ignore 'evidence' that is not based on fact. So do courts of law for that matter.

You still want to attack me because why? You cannot refute the Canon, you make no attempt to refute the canon but it doesn't match your opinion therefore I am wrong.

So lets see, Wolf Clan was weak because in canon they
- Lost their trials against other Clans
- Got given an Invasion Corridor they did not earn
- Fought primarily against the weakest IS army
- Did not finish their battle at Tukayyid
- Got Absorbed.

Now if you want to debate this with some canon that refutes it, fine. I'm happy to discuss If you have no canon that refutes that and all you can offer up is "you're a nasty pasty cause I think your're wrong, and I'm just gunna ignore what you say" OK. Knock yourself out.

Now Gyrock (who I will come back to shortly seperately) might be arguing tangets but he at least has a basis of an argument. I can respect he has a view and am willing to debate with him. I'm still going to come back to what I believe but if he can show me some stuff of substance I am not going to ignore it. Like him I probably have every Source Book (In fact I'm pretty sure I am missing only 2 or 3 adventure modules) but I will freely admit my novel library is somewhat diminished by skungy mates who don't return stuff.

Go have a look at the Totem mech thread and you will see that within a couple of posts of being quoted canon (in exactly the same format i do by the way) I conceded that guys point. I am not above anyone here all I ask is that you make your point on canon. If you can't do that it's not that I am argumentative, it's that you don't have an argument.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tesunie, on 11 March 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Excluding Shar (as any likes from him might be from our previous meetings on the forums, so out of fairness),
............
I also excluded Shar Wolf's likes.
......
(And Shar Wolf, for the record, liked your earlier posts, but I counted him into your likes.)

I usually don't even read who posted when I click like.
(which has had the embarrassing side effect of me liking some of my own posts when re-reading stuff)

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

The source books I have state that the charges were drummed up by Crusaders (1) desiring to dethrone Ulric by means of coersion. They also state, that only by a mere technicality and an extremely tenuous argument were they even able to get anything to stick.

Their charges that stuck, if you recall, were based on the fact that he was diluting the gene pool of Clan Wolf for experienced warriors by agreeing to uphold the agreement with the IS. The argument was based on the principle that in 15 years when the truce was up, the blood lines would be somehow "weakened" by the lack of combat with the IS for 15 years and there would be no combat experienced veterans left to lead.

Now, through the 250 or so years to this point, this has never held water, as the clans are constantly fighting trials and combating each other over honor and all sorts of other things. The ONLY reason those charges stuck, were because the council consisted, at that point, of 9 crusaders and 7 wardens. Additionally, if you recall, the vote against Ulric was NOT unanimous, indeed, the Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, Wolves and several others were dissenters. It was only on the last day that the Jade Falcons were able to succeed in getting a 9-7 majority vote to cast him out. At which point Ulric declared a Trial of Refusal that would become the refusal war. (2)

Through the entire invasion, the Grand Council was fine with Ulric, so much so THEY PRAISED HIS WORK on NUMEROUS occasions (3). Yet he was betraying them as you say? You can argue this all you want, but do not omit the basic facts and point to circumstantial evidence as significant proof.

Additionally, Clan Wolf was so superior at this time, they were the fastest advancing Clan THROUGH ALL WAVES...say what you want about the worlds they took, The Ghost Bears had less opposition and took fewer worlds and sustained more losses during their invasion. (4)

All this from canon sources, yet you consistently are adamant that Clan Wolf was weak? So, the Ghost Bears, who fought less RCT size forces than Clan Wolf took fewer worlds, advanced more slowly and lost more warriors...but they were the strong Warden Clan (5)?

Additionally, based on your information earlier, the Smoke Jaguars encountered similar number of RCT sized forces as Clan Wolf, and yet advanced more slowly, took fewer worlds, and lost more warriors as well.

So which is it? They had a weak corridor and fought no one (not true)? Or, is it more likely your skewed view point over looks facts which are openly available in YOUR sources, and not convenient for your argument? (6)

As for my sources, I have a lot of books on .pdf I would not even bother to begin naming them...dare I say I may have them all.

(1) Source?

(2) Yup, there are a couple of minor differences from my sources (eg, vote was 19 - 15 pg 22 Warriors of Kerensky is one of them which means at least one Clan was split voting) but your sentiment I agree with completely. But I still don't see your link to my view that throughout 3048 to 3058 this makes Wolf a military stronger Clan.

If you are making a rebuttal to my narrative where I mention a unamious vote, the trial I was referring to the Vote for Invasion which was 16 Clans vs Wolf Clan. I use the word unamious only because in Clan Culture after a vote you can request a trial which Clan Wolf did and they lost, ergo there vote now technically becomes a yay (in the sense that they cannot argue the point anymore, defeat in combat meant all Clans were not supposed to be united on the matter, ergo unamious) If you want to change the wording to 16 out of 16 (cause Clan Wolf doesn't count having failed in combat) OK.

(3) Some did, some didn't. I don't think I detailed any of the acquasations or supporting comments of Ulric from other Clans. I'm not making an argument on the basis of "Focht said he was a good guy" or "Crichell hated his guts". Rather I offered up what canon says he actually did and invited to debate. There are two aspects, betrayal of Clan Wolf and Betrayal of the Grand Council (and hence all the Clans) segments of the timeline

Ulric as Khan was sworn to lead the Clan (ra ra ra) according to its customs and practices. This is the expectation of the Bloodnamed warriors when they vote any Khan (in any Clan) although I grant you, each Clan has different processes, oaths, rituals etc.

Ulric abandoned several long held Clan Wolf practices such as

The Warden view of return to the Inner Sphere as champions and Protectors became (under Ulric) Clan Wolf warriors will die fighting fellow Clans to stop them from approaching the Inner Sphere. Ineffect, until he was forced by the orders of the Grand Council, Ulric was using Clan Wolf Warriors to prevent all Clans from returning to the Inner Sphere (which Nicholas had promised them)
The long held Wolf Clan customer of trials for position proven in combat was abandoned (and I use the example of the 328th Assault Cluster) so that Wardens were dominating the Clan Wolf command structure.

As Il Khan he also prevented Clan Wolf warriors from winning a decisive victory against Comstar by declaring the battle done while Clan Wolf was still fighting.
As Il Khan he requested the entire Clan Wolf touman to fight his trial of Refusal against Clan Jade Falcon which as Il Khan, he had no justification to receive (Il Khans are above all Clans)

I am aware of course these are debatable, there is at least one argument that I know of but on balance, I think these instances are of Ulric persuing his personal agenda over the majority of his Clan and some long held traditions.

As Il Khan it is even more clear. Ulric's duty was to succesfully prosecute the Invasion of the Inner Spehere (remember at this time the vote was 16 out of 16 votes said yay, Clan Wolf said nay but lost it's challenge and hence doesn't count) on behalf of the Grand Council wishes.

He did not. His first act was to ****** the Smoke Jaguars and the Falcons by assigning them supporting Clans directly oppossed to them (ie, fueding) instead of supporting them.

Secondly he revealed the Clans military objetive to the Inner Sphere (he told Focht) and what would happen afterwards (ruling class replaced by Clans)

Thirdly he did not set any cut downs on the bidding for Tukayyid (this could be intrepeted as complete incompetence, that Ulric had no idea of what forces were required but I prefer to think he was not a tarrible military mind, just not a great one)

Fourthly Ulric took an internal Wolf Clan matter which could have been settled in house to the Grand Council seeking combat with the Flacons. (Remember, he is the Il Khan and responsible for conquering Terra and he is going out of his way to incite combat between his forces)

I can go on, but you may concede on the strength of these, happy to debtate.

(4) So firstly we need to bear in mind this is an apples and oranges comparison. Clan Wolf faced the weakest IS force and its rate of advance or casualities should have been stronger than other Clans. I have never said Clan Wolf was "the weakest" and so have not compared to any other Clan. I have said that Clan Wolf was weaker than other Clans.

Now lets look at some numbers for the primary phase of the Invasion (R= Regiment Oppostion or greater). I contrast to JF only because the source books are very detailed (down to names of pilots in touman) and they are the primary antagonists.

Wave 1 CW 10 worlds R 3, JF 9 worlds R 7

Wave 2 CW 6 worlds R 0, JF 12 worlds R 5

Wave 3 CW 11 worlds R 5, JF 5 worlds R 1

Wave 4 CW 16 worlds R 3, JF 16 worlds R 5

Totals CW 43 worlds R 11, JF 42 worlds R 17

So these numbers (direct from the Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon source books) show that at the end of wave two Clan Wolf was measurably behind Clan Jade Falcon (16 worlds vs 21) and had faced regiment strength opostiton on 3 worlds compared to the Flaaons 12.

The analysis is evidence that the long cherished view that Clan Wolf was the greatest cause they crushed the IS has no basis. The facts are that Clan Wolf was not the fastest. That they did face measureable less opposition. After Ulric crippled the Jade Falcons with internal combats Clan Wolf (whihc had no such internal pressure) went ahead again and took more worlds.

But it's apples and orange to say that becasue Wolf Clan went hard and took less casualities, they were better. Considering what they had in front of them that they could only keep up with the Jade Falcons (who were also protecting the Clan Wolf flank) is suggestive.

(5) I never said that, I said I admired them for holding more true to the Warden cause than Ulric / Clan Wolf did.

(6) Review the data and you will see in that comparison I only detailed wave one and I never made the claim that Smoke Janguar was stronger then Wolves. In fact, I have never held any Clan was stronger than Wolves, I have not disclosed my opinion on that.

Having said that, It's not Clan Wolf.

I know thats not popular in the Clan Wolf forum but the canon is the canon. I'm not overlooking anything but I am more than happy for you to submit and argue a point (based on canon which I suspect you clearly can do) if you feel you have one. I'm not going to make your argument for you, clearly I have already reviewed and not placing value on other points.

I issue the same challenge to you I did to Tesunie, if you feel that from 3048 to 3058 Clan Wolf was the 'top dog' and the strongest Clan, I invite you to support that view with examples from Canon of what they actually did that supports your view.

[Uncle Totty]

Tesunie, on 11 March 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Okay. Here is a hint. I don't care about the rest, as most of that was politics within the grand council. Prove that the trial was ended prematurely, giving Wolf a "fake" victory.

Craig Steele, on 11 March 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

(1) Clan Wolf Sourcebook pg 51, "Clan Wolf inflicted heavy enough damage on the Comstar forces that the 13th Army was committed to the mountains. Before the new Constar force could join the engagement however, the battle for Tukayyid ended".

Because Wolf took the second target by then. Where does it tell me otherwise? Where does it say "Clan Wolf did not take their second target city"?

Edited by Nathan K, 12 March 2014 - 02:33 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

Because Wolf took the second target by then. Where does it tell me otherwise? Where does it say "Clan Wolf did not take their second target city"?

It doesn't and I have never made an allegation they didn't. I also never said it was Fake, it was Judged a victory (and for that matter, so was every other Clans result)

Fact - Clan Wolf was the only Clan to take both objectives
Fact - Clan Wolf was still fighting Comstar forces around the objectives, the battle did not end because they took the objectives. The battle was by all accounts continuing as a tense and hard fought battle.

If you are implying the battle was over once Clan Wolf seized both objectives my question would be, why were they still fighting? This is arguably the only real lever here so if you have something in canon I'd love to hear it. It will refute one of the several points I have that demonstrate Clan Wolf's weakness. One won't change my mind, but it will certainly tick a box.

Fact - Comstar had gathered forces for a counter attack - as they had for virtually every other engagement against a Clan on Tukayyid
Fact - Clan Wolf was low on ammo and had taken "heavy" casualities, including the death of Khan Raddick
Fact - Ulric declared the battle for Tukayyid over before the Comstar forces were able to engage Clan Wolf
Fact - Clan Wolf was adjudged the victor in their trial by virtue of holding both objectives when the campaign was declared over
Fact - They did not finish the battle and earn themselves either an outright victory or defeat, they did not defeat their opponents.

We can suppose either way what the outcome might have been had the battle continued as long as other Clans engagement, its irrelevant to the point though.

The point is that Clan Wolfs engagement on Tukayyid did not go the distance, their victory was a "Judged" one and hence it is not evidence of military might.

Heres some more Facts

Clan Nova Cat did more damage to Comstar forces than any other Clan on Tukayyid. Invading Clans Sourcebook pg 117 "....were judged to have lost despite the fact they inflicted the most severe losses on their opponents of any other battle on Tukayyid"

Clan Smoke Jaguar sustained the highest casualities of all Clans on Tukayyid, a staggering 90% casualties. "... the mortality rate ranged from a high of 30% dead, 60% wounded, for Clan Smoke Jaguar,...." pg 52 Clan Wolf Sourcebook

Those facts also have no bearing on the point being made.

[SpiralFace]

The Wolves have always been one of the most powerful clans, but I wouldn't say they where the MOST powerful clan. Ulric was more of an opportunist then anything, which allowed the wolves to rapidly expand their OZ territory and capitalize on information better then any other clan could do during the invasion.

The wolves where always powerful, but always a politically divided clan. Ulric and his predecessor as a warden never wanted to invade, but when the Grand council called for the invasion, Ulric rose to the challenge to ensure that his clan stayed on the forefront of the clan politics, because an original invading clan would hold more political sway then other clans. And also keep crusader descenters in the wolf ranks quiet and keep his own seat of power secured.

They captured Phalen Kell early in the invasion, and leveraged his knowledge as a mercenary that served in the theater they invaded in quite extensively to get detailed information on planetary defenders, house regiments attached to the region, and capabilities of militia to respond to threats from invaders. Going so far as to have him actually squire a full system with just himself unarmed.

He parlayed with Anastasius Focht. The only clan to do so. Focht was actually actively helping him early in the invasion because comstar saw Ulric as a puppet they wanted to eventually control so they ensured the wolves capability's to invade where well supported by comstar which made their logistical chain VERY quick. Up until they found out that their primary goal was Terra, where they quickly withdrew their assistance. But by that time, Phalen Kell had been promoted up to a warrior, and the advisory to Ulric.

Ulric WANTED to win Tukyyid. As the ilkahn of the time, he wanted to win tukyiid with the wolves to become the ilclan to the clans. And there for dictating all of clan policy. Having worked with comstar and Focht, he knew the man and had a better idea of their capabilities then the other clans. Who thought of comstar as just more Inner sphere barbarians. He might have seen that the battle was over sooner, but that was also because he had the luxury of already taking their two objectives, which allowed them to monitor the situation better then many of the other clans still trying to claim their own.

Edited by SpiralFace, 12 March 2014 - 05:09 AM.

[Gyrok]

Craig check the following:

Lost Destiny pp 362-367 about the Grand Kulturai regarding the events at Tukayyid, the Grand Council deemed the Crusaders were, in fact, wrong.

Also, take a look at Clan Wolf Sourcebook p. 54 where it discusses Phelan (Kell) presenting Clan Wolf's arguments in the Grand Kulturai, and that these arguments that Clan Wolf was superior during the invasion were not disputed by the Clans themselves.

Also look at The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p.21 the section about Enforced peace.

Take a peek at Bred for War pp 50-56, 92-97, 105-110 and it discloses that Vlad Ward and Marialle Radick, known Crusaders trying to coerce the Council, filed charges. It also states the flimsy charges brought up that they managed to get to stick on pp 129-136.

If you read those sections and are still convinced of your view point...then I am afraid you are beyond my help.

Edited by Gyrok, 12 March 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 06 March 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

1. Yes, you are correct, my apologies it most certainly was a Trial of Refusal. IDK why I said Greivance.

2. What's your source for this claim that Wolf Clan killed more warriors than they lost. All my sources say "narrow defeat". It's a mute point because they still lost and hence under the "might is right" credos of the Clans, Wolf failed to carry their view. But I would still be interested to know.

3. Ummm, it has eveything to do with the Warden / Crusader competition. Clan Wolf was still recognised as the leading Clan of the Warden view, and Jade Falcon was the accepted leader of the Crusader cause. Ulric's whole 'strategy' of defeating the Crusader movement was to cripple the Jade Falcons military knowing that they would still have politicial strength but would be unwilling to allow their allied Crusaders to advance further without the Falcons. This was why Ulric chose to escalate an internal Wolf Clan matter to the Grand Council so as to bring the Jade Falcons into the fight. Had he not it would have been Wolf Crusaders vs Wolf Wardens, basically a civil war.

Had Clan Wolf won the Refusal War, then the minority Warden view would have been proven in the field. Or more accurately, that the view espoused by the Jade Falcons was weak. Might is Right. All the Clans would have had to re assess what had been established by Clan Wolf, that the Warden view had a place and the Crusader view was weak. Ulric knew this, so did the Falcons. Both sides saw the Refusal War as an opportunity to put to bed (again if you're a Crusader) the strength of their belief. It's also one of the key reasons why this time the Trial become an Absorbtion, because Clan Wolf had shown itself unwilling to accept the Councils will and were therefore unfit to be part of the Clans.

The important point is that never until Ulric twisted it was the Warden cause about defending the IS against the Clans. At no time did Nicolas articulate that the Clans would be fighting each other to defend the Inner Sphere, his words were for all the Clans to unite in this task (although again, each Clan took a little angle on his words according to their view and developments)

4. Absolutely, thats my point. That between 3048 and 3058 Clan Wolf never acted as a Clan, in fact they acted un Clan like. They disavowed any Trial that they lost and only subscribed to the "might is right" principal if they won. The activily went out of their way to circumvent the unanimous will of the Clans (Wolverine got annihilated for less than what Wolf did). The only battles they won were against Inner Sphere Barbarians, and mainly against the weakest of the armies in the Clans Invasion corridor (FRR). Heck they even fled the field in the Refusal war, Phelan was ordered to run away.

Some Wolf fan boys point to Wolf's superiority because they took Gunzburg with only a single warrior, Phelan, and he didn't fire a shot. It's laughable because basically the only weapon Pheln used was his tongue, a weapon abhored by Clan culture as one for the weakest warrior. Wolverine & Mongoose were both destroyed because they over used diplomacy in a culture were combat is the standard by which a warrior is judged.

So we have Clan Wolf who in summary, losses to other Clan's in trials but refuses to accept their loss with honour. Celebrates diplomacy over combat. Betrays it's own people and it's chain of command. Initiates a "jobs for the boys' mentality instead of the Clan culture of 'best man for the job proven in trial'. Has success in the field primarily against the weakest of Inner Sphere militaries.

All of this is canon, it's not disputable. I just put it together under one light without the excuses and it reads as a very very weak Clan if it could even be called a Clan.

But Vlad does a great job, he is trying hard to restore Clan Wolf.

I have to disagree with you there. The Refusal War's outcome was unexpected. The Absorption was illegal & unClanlike. That is canon as well. Any Clan in that position would not have agreed to it. What other Trials have Clan Wolf lost that they refused to honor? Also technically speaking Clan Wolf won the Refusal War.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 12 March 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Craig check the following:

Lost Destiny pp 362-367 about the Grand Kulturai regarding the events at Tukayyid, the Grand Council deemed the Crusaders were, in fact, wrong.

Also, take a look at Clan Wolf Sourcebook p. 54 where it discusses Phelan (Kell) Wolf's arguments in the Grand Kulturai, and that these arguments that Clan Wolf was superior during the invasion was not disputed by the Clans themselves.

Also look at The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p.21 the section about Enforced peace.

Take a peek at Bred for War pp 50-56, 92-97, 105-110 and it discloses that Vlad Ward and Marialle Radick, known Crusaders trying to coerce the Council, filed charges. It also states the flimsy charges brought up that they managed to get to stick on pp 129-136.

If you read those sections and are still convinced of your view point...then I am afraid you are beyond my help.

LOL, I know all those references but they are not evidence of Clan Wolf being superior, they are evidence of people saying Clan Wolf is superior.

You are focussing on the Tukayyid / Grand Council side of things right? Some have argued how it was the Crusaders of the Invading Clans that stuffed up Tukayyid with the ridiculous bidding and ignoring Ulric. Thats part of the stuff your referencing to by the way.

Now lets look at who those Crusaders actually were.

Clan Smoke Jaguar, Ardent Crusader.
Clan Jade Falcon, Ardent Crusdaer
Clan Wolf, Ardent Warden
Clan Ghost Bear, Strong Warden
Clan Steel Viper, Ardent Warden (since their founding Khan no less, Mercer)
Clan Nova Cat, Strong Warden (and open Ulric admirer)
Clan Diamond Shark, nominally Warden, call them Warden leanings.

Please tell me where these mysterious Crusaders that had such an impact on these battles. Clan Wolf was the champion of the Warden cause, 5 of 7 Clans involved in Tukayyid were Warden. How is it that 4 other Warden clans (well 3 and a half to allow for Diamond Shark) could be over come by the Crusader cause while their chief and commander (both as Wardens and Il Khan) is sitting in the same room.

The theory that the Crusader broke the back of the Clan assault by screwing up Tukayyid holds no water, they were not even close to a majority and virtually every other Khan hated the Falcons or the Jaguars. The Wardens were not going to just jump ship so they idea that the Crusaders caused the debacle at Tukayyid holds no water. If blame must be laid must be laid fairly on the majority and the leader which was the Wardens and Ulric.

As for your quotes, just a couple of points of clarity.

Phelan Kells presentation to the grand council was not that Clan Wolf was superior, it was that the Clans were superior pg 54 reads "Phelan Kell reminded the assmebled Khans of one basic fact: that despite their superior skills, the Clans had just suffered a major defeat" (my italics)

The Bred for War reference were about Wolf warriors seeking to bring charges up on an internal Wolf matter to the Wolf Council. Not to the Grand Council. Ulric knew he had votes to defeat the acquasations (there were three of them from memory) but he chose to escalate one of them to the Grand Council so it would initiate a war with Clan Jade Falcon. I will concede though that the Crusdaers were hoping (and envisaged) that Ulric would do so but politicing is like that, Ulric was no saint in the politicing either.

For example appointing Natasha as a Khan. When he was made Il Khan the Crusaders envisaged the normal Clan process of a Khan being nominated and voted by the Bloodnamed warriors would see a Crusader enter into Clan Wolf's highest ranks (politicing). Ulric "....named Natasha Kerensky as his replacement......... The Crusaders could only hope she would fail in her upcoming trial...." pg 42 Wolf Clan Sourcebook. That was a snowballs chance in hell obviously.

So here we see Ulric ignoring the Clan Wolf (all Clans?) custom of the bloodnamed warriors electing their Khan by majority vote (pg 55 Warriors of Kerensky) and we see Ulric appointing his successor like some ancient king. The source doesn't specify which Crusader challenged Natasha (well it doesn't even say it was a Crusader but chances are) but the outcome is well known.

In the main, your references are about the Clans honouring the Truce, not the strength of Clan Wolf. Some Crusaders wanted to go again, some Wardens did to. But the Grand Council said no. I have no problem with that. But it doesn't address the key aspect, up until then Ulric was activily disobeying the Grand Council order to take Terra when he was Il Khan.

If we are just talking about Ulric, well canon shows Ulric
1) Subverted the laws and customs of Clan Wolf he was sworn to uphold as a Khan by ignoring Trials of Position to appoint personal stooges that would support him in his personal goals
2) As Il Khan betrayed the Clans war goals to the enemy
3) Arranged his forces in such a manner that it encouraged internal fighting rather than his core objective of seizing Terra, in effect he was ensuring his own army was too weak to the job by killing themself.
4) As Il Khan demonstrated poor and biased judgement at best (or it was outright sabotage) at Tukayyid that cost the Clans a chance of victory
5) Sacrificed hundreds (thousands?) of Wolf warriors in the refusal war, a war that need not have been fought as it was an internal Wolf matter, to satisfy his personal goals
6) And on that Refusal War, he required the entire Wolf touman (compliant due to the aforementioned leadership manipulations) to fight on his personal behalf in a Trial that should have been traditionally less than a star (pg 22 Warriors of Kerensky reads "Ulric called for a Trial of refusal against the verdict. However this Trial would go far beyond a simple one on one or Star on Star engagement".

Thats all in canon and screams out traitor and Ulrics leadership is one of the key reasons why Clan Wolf was weaker than other Clans during this Khanship. They were simply ******** by his personal agenda from achieving anything great.

Instead of being led by the best warriors, they led by good warriors loyal to Ulric (although I grant you, Natasha and Phelan were far more than good but it may well have been that the Bloodnamed of Clan Wolf knew someone better, we'll never know. This comment is more targeted at the Galaxy / Cluster level)

Instead of fighting to a great victory on Tukayyid Ulric called it quits while they were still going toe to toe

Instead enhancing Clan Wolf and its prestige, its warriors were dying in a Refusal War they could have avoided with a vote (Clan waste culture?)

All because Ulric said.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 12 March 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

I have to disagree with you there. The Refusal War's outcome was unexpected. The Absorption was illegal & unClanlike. That is canon as well. Any Clan in that position would not have agreed to it. What other Trials have Clan Wolf lost that they refused to honor? Also technically speaking Clan Wolf won the Refusal War.

Where does that come from?

The Grand Council approved the Absorbtion so there was nothing illegal about it.

Ulric was found guilty of Treason and the Wolf Khans found unfit to rule by the Grand Council so the Absorbtion was certainly warranted. Khans being unfit to rule the reaosn for the other Absorbtions.

Technically speaking Clan Wolf won the refusal war? Firstly my mind is boggled that there even is a technical definition for "winning" but seeing as they did actually lay down their weapons and surrender I am kinda thinking that between two combatants, one knew they were beaten and the other knew they were victorious.

[Gyrok]

Ulric's vision encompassed being the champion of the warden cause, and further, he knew that Clan Wolf would BECOME weak after a civil war between the crusaders and wardens. Natasha Kerensky was constantly issuing trials of grievance against crusaders, and despite her best efforts (none the lacking, either) there were many crusaders among Clan Wolf.

Ulric knew this, and was no fool as to the momentum of the Clans. To serve the higher purpose he saw in the Warden cause and protect a way of life, instead of subjugating an entire group of people numbering in the 10s if not 100s of billions, he saw the clear way to solve the issue that would tear the clan apart as having an all out civil war among the clans themselves. By taking the strongest clan from the Warden cause, and having them fight the strongest crusader clan, he was able to cull crusaders from both camps by having them fight each other.

Further, to protect the warden cause, he made the decision to send off the remainder of the Wardens (who were arguably the best warriors and leaders the clan had...without dispute) to exile. This action further ensured that, no matter what, crusader wolves were bid to fight crusader falcons.

Even then, you have situations like Twycross, where Natasha Kerensky inflicted more losses on the Falcons than they care to remember, additionally, you have many more situations where the wolves routed the falcons or inflicted such heavy losses that victory was really defeat for both sides.

According to you though, the Falcons were stronger...in reality, their attempt for a trial of absorption was honestly a sign of weakness. It was unexpected, and as you would say "un-clanlike" and by this standard, one would argue the Wolves were the stronger of the two from this point forward. As their refusal of the absorption was upheld and they emerged as a new/old clan. While the Falcons wanted to absorb them to gain strength lost from the war.

As Jaroth pointed out, technically Clan Wolf did win the refusal war.

[CyclonerM]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Technically speaking Clan Wolf won the refusal war? Firstly my mind is boggled that there even is a technical definition for "winning" but seeing as they did actually lay down their weapons and surrender I am kinda thinking that between two combatants, one knew they were beaten and the other knew they were victorious.

So let me remember how the Wolves have been "beaten".. They won several battles (look yourself on the sources for the complete list of planets) or inflicted heavy losses on the Falcon forces.. The war ended only when Natasha Kerensky was killed in a duel (no arguing, Joanna's action was admirable) and Ulric Kerensky, who issued the Trial of Refusal itself, was assasinated by Khan Chistu. I do not see any evidence of the Wolf being beaten in any way.

The whole Refusal War stopped having sense after Ulric's death, at hand of that savashri of Vandervhan Chistu

[SpiralFace]

The refusal war itself was a pretty self indulgent war on Ulric's part to begin with.

The clans blamed him for the ultimate failure of Tukayyid despite the fact that his clan was the only clan that came out ahead, and he himself WANTED to win Tukayyid to try and become the ilclan to dictate the rest of the clan politics as the ilclan.

When that crumbled around him, the writing was on the wall for him. He was a man with a target on his back. The collective clans blamed him for the 15 year truce as an "unclan" like compromise that threatened the technological advantage the clans had over the IS at the time. Even his own clan pressed charges against him that threatened to have the wolves rip themselves apart.

So what does he do?

Rather then just accepting his fate and going quietly, he stages a puppet war where on the surface he bids his entire clan, knowing fully well that half of his clan are not fighting to win, but fighting to flea to the IS, with the "bothersome" elements that he didn't agree with left to die at the hands of another clan that actually shared their philosophical beliefs.

There was no "winner" or "looser" to the refusal war. It was a puppet war staged by Ulric as his "way out" to try and escape his ultimate fate with the clans. But rather then concede, he decided to pit everyone with different beliefs to himself against each other and cause so much damage that it devastated Clan Jade Falcon.

Jade Falcon got no satisfaction out of the war. It destroyed nearly half of their resources going against the wolves, and while they got half of the Wolf Clan absorbed into their own Touman, they lost it all when Vlad splintered the group after successfully showing that the jade falcons did not necessarily play fair during the war.

Wolf for all intensive purposes became a dead Clan. The "Warden" wolves where not fighting the war as the war was intended, but simply used the war as a cover to plow their way out into the inner sphere and escape clan space where there where enemy's on all sides due to the failure of Tukayyid.

Ulric left the crusader elements of his clan to die. He did not care for them even though they where his own people. He used them as a scape goat and cover to screen his plan to flee to the IS with his "chosen few."

From there on out, the "original" clan Wolf was for all intensive purposes dead. The Warden's fled clan space, renounced their seat at the Counsel, and where essentially excommunicated by the whole Grand Counsel for the autocracy that Ulric did by abandoning the people who simply didn't see the world his way.

The Crusaders where left for dead, and got the fate that Ulric left them too. They either died like the warriors they where, or got absorbed into Jade Falcon, who then gave them the "honor" of splitting them into their own, new, "Jade Wolf" clan so that the Falcons could have a puppet faction on the Grand Counsel in their pocket, and where then reformed into a "New" clan Wolf only when Vlad successfully showed that they dishonorably destroyed Ulric.

There where no winners in that war. It was a puppet war led by a shrewd but self serving leader that ultimately left no winners behind.

[Tesunie]

Shar Wolf, on 11 March 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

I usually don't even read who posted when I click like.
(which has had the embarrassing side effect of me liking some of my own posts when re-reading stuff)

I like posts that I like, no mater who wrote it. I've even liked posted that I disagreed with, because they were at least in part true, or presented a great point.
I've done that once myself. Went over it to reread it again, and realized I had liked my own post somehow... Ended up unliking that as soon as I noticed it.

Jaroth Corbett, on 12 March 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

I have to disagree with you there. The Refusal War's outcome was unexpected. The Absorption was illegal & unClanlike. That is canon as well. Any Clan in that position would not have agreed to it. What other Trials have Clan Wolf lost that they refused to honor? Also technically speaking Clan Wolf won the Refusal War.

The Absorbtion was an atempt to keep Falcon strong, so that another clan couldn't take advantage of their weakness after the Refusal.

The war was pointless once Ulric was assassinated... I mean killed in "honorable combat"... They were winning otherwise from what I'm reading.

"The War"
"The Refusal War was hard-fought and Ulric's plan to keep the Falcons from restarting the invasion by weakening them proved its merit. In order to ensure that the Falcon's believed the Wolves were coming with all they had, Phelan launched a couple of assaults with his Alpha Galaxy before running to the Inner Sphere.
The Wolf Touman won victory after victory, smashing through the Falcon units, though often at great cost. Little did Ulric and Natasha realize that this was part of the Falcon plan. saKhan Vandervahn Chistu placed the less-experienced Falcon units in the way of the Wolf assault so that they could wear the bulk of the Wolf forces down. The plan worked effectively enough. On Twycross, Khan Natasha Kerensky found herself unable to route the Falcon garrison force that included mostly second-line troops but also the rebuilt Falcon Guards. She ordered her troops off-planet to join Ulric's task force, personally serving as rear guard by challenging Falcon warriors to single combat. Star Commander Joanna ultimately slew Natasha when Khan Kerensky's cockpit was destroyed. Her Dire Wolf remains there, in mute testament to the Black Widow.
Star Colonel Ulric Kerensky finally reached Wotan, the Falcon Occupation Zone capital, in early December 3057. As his forces battled those of saKhan Chistu, their respective command Stars sought each other out. Ulric eagerly engaged Vandervahn, but, unbeknown to him, Chistu had hidden two Stars of missile boats and converted his ER Small Laser to act as a spotting laser. When Ulric entered the field, Chistu rained missiles on the former ilKhan and killed him and most of his Star.
With Natasha and Ulric dead, the Falcons attempted to chase Phelan Ward down, but Phelan's Wolves united with the Kell Hounds to fight back, soundly defeating the pursuing Jade Falcon force on Morges."

"Aftermath"
"The war concluded with a pyrrhic victory for the Jade Falcons. Ulric's death rendered the charges of genocide leveled at him moot and the remaining Warden Clans argued eloquently in favor of not disregarding the Truce. Regardless, the Jade Falcons were in no position to resume their invasion. They took the drastic step of turning the Trial of Refusal into one of Absorption."

(But then again, this isn't "canon", so I guess it can't be right...)

"Bereft of leadership, no Wolf warriors dissented with Khan Elias Crichell's assessment that they needed to band together to stave off the predations of other Clans."

(Forgot this too.)

[Craig Steele]

Wow,

So in the Refusal War according to you guys, only Clan Wolf won any battles, and had it not been for their "best" warriors running away from the fight they would have won.

Natahsa couldn't defeat the Falcon forces on Twycross, ordered her troops to retreat and fought a rearguard by hereslf and died (source, Sarna as cut and pasted above, non canon but used to demonstrate how far you guys will stoop) and you interpret that as "we were winning" (source, quoted from the same post as Sarna excerpt)

Ulric bid the entire touman against Jade falcon, the Invasion Zones were the Circle of Equals and when Ulric landed on Woton the 2 stars "sought each other out" and you interpret that as a duel (no batchall in this source, no new CoE) and so Ulric dies to artillery from enemy fire that was part the touman he challenged within the agreed CoE and Ulric was assassinated? (again, according to the much loved Sarna source quoted in defense of the Wolves).

And yes, for those others who do know canon I am aware of the full details of this battle. I simply show here that use of Sarna to support a canon view is fraught with danger because this source is far from the full story. It does not change though that if the quoter of this source read the information objectivily it in no way supports the assertion Ulric was assassinated.

Phelan links up with daddy's regiments and they "soundly defeat" the pursuing Jade Falcons on Morges (although in this instance you neglect to highlight how the Falcons were fighting 3 to 1 odds so by your measure that should be at least a draw or a Falcon victory right?)

Wow, this is just like "We lost the Invasion Refusal but it was 4 to one so technically we won." And not one of you have referred to the source book for the Refusal War to support your claims.

Well guess what.

In canon (as opposed to alternative universes cherised and loved by individuals) Clan Wolf LOST the Invasion refusal and they LOST the Refusal war. Make all the excuses you like but it will not change that IN CANON, they lost.

Honestly the canon is clear if you want to set aside your emotions and look at objectivily.

Clan Wolf was WEAK 3048 - 3058 in Canon because

1) They couldn't beat any other clans in major trials ergo they were not 'top dog'
2) They didn't win an Invasion corridor and if not for Nicholas Kerensky's legacy they would not have even been in the war
3) They were gifted the easiest Invasion Corridor against the weakest IS army the Clans faced with their flanks protected by other Clans
4) Even then, they could only keep up with the performance of some other Clans, they were not 'racing ahead" as some like to portray until the Il Khan had his compeition fighting other Clans to occupy their troops
5) They couldn't finish off their opponent at Tukayyid and quite possibly would have been routed had their benefactor not stepped in to save them
6) They were poorly led by a Khan who wanted Clan Wolf to be his personal army executing his personal goals because he would not fight his own battles (is that the definition of a coward?)
7) And ultimately, their leadership, treachery and weakness was proven and the Grand Council which approved their absorbtion by a stronger Clan, which in Canon occurred. Ergo, If they were defeated by a stronger Clan, they were weaker than at least one Clan, the one that defeated them.

All of this is in Canon, there are no excuses. Clearly supporters have nothing of substance that refutes any of this so we are forced to accept what is there for anyone to see

Clan Wolf was weak.

[Gyrok]

1.) Name one trial they lost pre 3055 excluding the 16 to 1 (bid down to 4 to 1) invasion trial?

Additionally, as I recall, the Jade Falcons also lost many trials from 3048 to 3055 if you look outside the trials where they were helped by other clans.

But what are petty canon details?

2.) They were ASSIGNED an invasion corridor...they did not want to "win" one...CANON IS VERY CLEAR HERE.

3.) You say "gifted", as I recall correctly Leo Showers assigned them the invasion corridor in an attempt to shame them...which quickly backfired...but that IlKhan abusing his power was fine by your decree...even though Canon paints Leo Showers in a different light...but what does canon matter here? After all, it is not convenient...

4.) They OUTPACED all other clans...again...CANON is quite clear here...Leo Showers would not have died if they had not been outpacing everyone heavily...disregarded, again, for convenience of argument.

5.) They were judged to win by The Grand Council and The ComStar judges...no side disputes they won...only you. Do you not find that the least bit funny?

6.) They were led by a Khan who was arguably far better in many respects than any other Khan, especially Chistu...

7.) The same Grand Council that quickly reversed course and declared them a new clan hot on the heels of said events after Vlad dishonored the Falcons beyond measure with the damning evidence that they conspired to kill Ulric through treachery? That the one you are talking about? Because I think you are looking at the wrong parts of the same books you quote if that is the same one you are using to paint your biased picture....

Just saying...it goes both ways...

[Ninjivitis]

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

LOL, did you red any of the canon I have summarised?

Ulric absolutaly did betray the Clans, it's not even open to debate.

No Crusaders are crying my friend, but its interesting that you only mention Ghost Bear and Wolf Clan in your Tukayyid summary. You do know of course that Jade Falcon was adjudged the same as Ghost Bear quiaff?

My comments you might not agree with with your blind adhereance, but I at least I do not dismiss the Wardens before I come to a conclusion.




Depends how you look at it. Remember before Ulric came along, the Warden view was still that they would take Terra. Ulric took from the Warden Wolves the opportunity to do that. In the other Clans, the Warden view remained they woudl take Terra (just with a different timing), remember the Steel Vipers?

This is essentially the heart of Ulrics treachery, that he fought against all the Clans taking Terra as Nicholas had promised them they would. Warden or Crusader, Ulric fought them all to save the other side (Inner Sphere) and thats the definition of a traitor.

I will admit that the Falcons did get a draw, although I was not sure if that was their account or the official account, as those can vary. Did they actually achieve one objective or was it simply a moral victory?

As for the other things you have said, I actually agree with you. The Wolves did lose the Refusal War, though it was to questionable tactics as far as honor goes, and the outcome might have been different if not for the exile. But I still believe that Ulric did not betray the clans. Criticize his methods all you want, the battle for Tukayyid was a fair one and the crusaders should have honored their agreement instead of accusing Ulric of treachery. Regardless of what his motives were, the clans had their chance to win terra, and failed. A true clan warrior would honor his word and honor the truce.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 12 March 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

1.) Name one trial they lost pre 3055 excluding the 16 to 1 (bid down to 4 to 1) invasion trial?

Additionally, as I recall, the Jade Falcons also lost many trials from 3048 to 3055 if you look outside the trials where they were helped by other clans.

But what are petty canon details?

2.) They were ASSIGNED an invasion corridor...they did not want to "win" one...CANON IS VERY CLEAR HERE.

3.) You say "gifted", as I recall correctly Leo Showers assigned them the invasion corridor in an attempt to shame them...which quickly backfired...but that IlKhan abusing his power was fine by your decree...even though Canon paints Leo Showers in a different light...but what does canon matter here? After all, it is not convenient...

4.) They OUTPACED all other clans...again...CANON is quite clear here...Leo Showers would not have died if they had not been outpacing everyone heavily...disregarded, again, for convenience of argument.

5.) They were judged to win by The Grand Council and The ComStar judges...no side disputes they won...only you. Do you not find that the least bit funny?

6.) They were led by a Khan who was arguably far better in many respects than any other Khan, especially Chistu...

7.) The same Grand Council that quickly reversed course and declared them a new clan hot on the heels of said events after Vlad dishonored the Falcons beyond measure with the damning evidence that they conspired to kill Ulric through treachery? That the one you are talking about? Because I think you are looking at the wrong parts of the same books you quote if that is the same one you are using to paint your biased picture....

Just saying...it goes both ways...

Is there a certain number of losses that you need to have before technically you are a loser? I submit that Clan Wolf lost 2 trials, if you think they were stronger than that canon fact relates how about you put up the trial they won during 3048 - 3058 (I know of only one and it was not a Clan vs Clan trial)

Yes Canon is very clear, go check almost every source book regarding the Clans. All Clans had to bid and trial for a position in the Invasion force except Clan Wolf, by consent of the Grand Council they were gifted a spot and did not need to earn their position in the invasion.

Gifted, assigned, semantics. They had the easiest run and could only keep pace with other clans.

You've made that claim before and the canon just doesn't support it. They caught up with Clan Jade Falcon during Wave 3 and ended the primary phase of the Invasion 42 vs 43. Hardly a raging success more so given the oppostion they were facing which was arguably, negliable.

Actually I absolutely acknowldge they won and have said so many times. My point is the warriors didn't win the battle, Ulric called the battle off before they could win (or lose) on their own merits. The key issue is that the Tukayyid result is not evidence of Clan Wolfs military acumentbecause the warriors did not finish the job. They were judged to have won, they did not win the fight.

Ulric vs Christu, you might be right. But thats not the point. Even if they were both traitors it doesn't change that Ulric was still a traitor.

Your summary of the absorbtion is not what happened in canon.

In canon, Clan Wolf was absorbed and the remenants under Phelans command were Abjured, Clan Wolf ceased to exist in Clan Space. This was approved and sanctioned by the Grand Council and is law.

The Falcon Khans gave the absorbed members of Clan wolf an identity by labelling them as the Jade Wolves. Once they did this, it enabled Vlad to challenge a Trial of Possession for that entity. Had the Falcon Khans not given them a badge, Vlad would have no basis to make a challenge.

Vlad won the challenge and claimed all the Wolf warriors / TO&E as isorla.

By consent, the Jade Wolves agreed to change their name to Clan Wolf. As they are technically a seperate entity of the old Clan Wolf protected by their absorbtion, they are outside of the Aburation and permitted to remain in Clan Space (as a Clan).

The Grand Council approved the outcomes of the Trial Vlad fought and acknowledged the Clan. This is a completly seperate Trial that in no way invalidates the Grand Councils approved absorbtion.

If you think I am selective in which parts of the book I refer to, this is an example where I am not alone.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Apologies for the delay but 300: Rise of an Empire premiered in my country today.

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Where does that come from?

The Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.21,



the novels Grave Covenant,

(I could just post the main part but instead I will post the entire conversation & underline the part I am referring to.)

Spoiler

Quote

Pershaw looked up at the assembly. "There is, this day, a matter most serious for your consideration. Khan Asa Taney of the Ice Hellions has proposed a Ritual of Absorption."

The Ice Hellion Khan rose from his position in the middle of the assembly, two rows down from Vlad, and laid his helmet on the table in front of him. The white helmet had been fashioned into the visage of the vicious pack predator of the planet Hector's tundra. The image looked ferocious, though Vlad and other Wolves had always denigrated it by calling it a rime-stoat. And just like a weasel clan to suggest the Absorption.

The large-headed Ice Hellion pilot smoothed his red hair into place. "It is with deep regret that I suggest Absorption, but there is no question that some of our Clans have suffered too much damage to continue to be viable. As we have always done, by absorbing one Clan into another, we preserved the genetic potential for our breeding program. I call for a Ritual of Absorption to prevent losses from which we cannot recover."

Ian Hawker, the fair-eyed and -haired Khan of the Diamond Sharks, unmasked himself and stood across from Taney. "I find myself concurring with this call for Absorption. Continuing the Crusade is of vital importance. We cannot afford to allow a dull edge on the blade we employ against the Inner Sphere. The time for Absorption has come."

Marthe Pryde doffed her helmet as she stood, but kept it under her right arm instead of setting it on the table. "Loremaster, in the previous two Absorptions, was the Ritual called for prior to the designation of a target Clan?"

Pershaw punched a request into the datapad at his desk, then shook his head. "The procedure Khan Taney is following is the tradition. There is nothing in the record to reflect, in a formal sense, that the choice of Clans to be absorbed was made before the vote was taken. However, Clans Widowmaker and Mongoose had suffered a number of reversals in the decade prior to the Ritual being enacted."

"Ah, a decade's worth of reversals. The failure of two breeding cycles." Marthe's tone was casual, but no one missed the implication.

Two cycles of failure mean serious problems with their breeding program. That is not the sort of problem the Wolves have had, and our reversals are merely a year old. Vlad stood but kept his helmet on. "Perhaps Khan Asa Taney could be persuaded to define what it is that makes a Clan viable in his eyes."

The Ice Hellion smiled indulgently. "I would think viability is obvious. A Clan must be able to supply, train, and deploy troops of sufficient number and quality that they can defeat their enemies and win great victories. This is the purpose for which the Clans were crafted."

"I see." Vlad removed his helmet carefully and set it down on the table, with its snarling muzzle pointed toward the Ice Hellion. "Please, then, answer this question for me—would a Clan capable of mounting a two-hundred-light year penetration of the Inner Sphere, meeting and savaging the best troops the Inner Sphere has to offer be considered viable or non-viable to your mind?"

Taney frowned. "We are not discussing the Wolves' past victories, Khan Ward. You yourself severed your Clan's history from those Wolves, in any event. That is all ancient history— we are interested in current events and their ramifications."

"As am I, Khan Taney." Vlad looked over to his right. "The events I have described are those accomplished by the Jade Falcons since last a Grand Council met. The Falcons organized, trained, and armed troops that scythed through the Inner Sphere with incredible ease. They ripped apart some of the most seasoned troops the Inner Sphere has to offer."

Hawker snarled. "And then they fled from a force that was sufficient to give them a good battle."

Marthe started to reply to that point, but Vlad held up a hand to forestall her. "And do you know why she accepted hegira from the troops on Coventry?" He let the question hang in the air for a moment, allowing the word cowardice to surface in the minds of the other Khans, then he answered it. "She chose to accept their offer because she had discovered that I was massing troops to take some invasion-corridor worlds away from her. Why would she waste her troops against Inner Sphere forces that clearly had no belly for a fight when she could pit them against my warriors? She did what every one of you would have done, and in your hearts you know it."

Lincoln Osis got to his feet and rested a massive ebony hand on top of the helmet he'd set on his desk. "Khan Ward's point is well taken. The Jade Falcons are obviously viable and even virile. The Wolves who fled to the Inner Sphere so fear them that they have allied themselves with mercenaries for protection. It seems clear that anyone suggesting an Absorption did not have the Jade Falcons in mind as a target."

Ian Hawker's expression sharpened. "Indeed, it would seem that there is but one Clan that is a likely candidate for Absorption."

Marthe Pryde looked out over the other Khans. "Do you meant to suggest that the Wolves are ripe?"

Taney nodded. "Your predecessors in the Jade Falcons thought so, though their attempt at doing that was misguided and bungled."

"Which is why my predecessors are dead."

"Granted. The fact remains that the Wolves have suffered significant reversals." Taney shook his head. "Not only did the war with the Jade Falcons tax them, but the Warden element of the Wolves removed itself, further weakening the Clan. We have a history of weakness there."

Marthe arched an eyebrow. "Do we?"

Taney blinked. "It is obvious, quiaff?"

"Neg, Khan Taney." Marthe showed teeth amid a shallow grin. "Did you not just tell Khan Ward that his Wolves were divorced from the victorious history of the other Wolves? How can his Clan have suffered reversals when it did not exist at the time those reversals occurred? Would you have the sons suffer for the sins of the fathers?"

Hawker waved her protest away. "It does not matter, Marthe, for the Wolves are a weak whelp."

"Weak, are they?" Marthe looked over at Lincoln Osis. "Which Clan is weaker, the Clan that wins a fight or the Clan that loses it? Seven months ago the Wolves successfully raided Kiamba. They took breeding stock from you, did they not, Lincoln? If defeating you did not prove their strength, certainly the seeding of Osis blood in their sibkos should make them strong, quiaff?"

Osis snarled and Vlad wanted to applaud. You have eloquently returned the favor I have done you, Marthe.

The Smoke Jaguar nodded slowly. "It is true that the Wolves mounted an extended raid through the Ghost Bear occupation zone and hit our world of Kiamba. They soundly defeated the troops we had there. Khan Ward did win bondsmen and breeding stock, but this does not mean the Wolves could not be a target for Absorption."

Vlad opened his arms. "I agree with the Smoke Jaguar Khan's analysis, and even that of Khan Taney, though I think neither of them has carried their analysis far enough. Asa Taney said that for a Clan to be viable it must be able to produce enough well-trained and well-armed troops to be able to stage operations and win victories. I would suggest that there is another level for the test of viability." He let his voice drop to a harsh growl. "That is this: for a Clan to be viable, it must also have the willingness, the heart, to actually find an enemy and attack."

Vlad pointed toward the Ice Hellion Khan. "For the last eight years the Jade Falcons and Wolves and other Clans have been fighting against the Inner Sphere. How many battles have you fought in that time, Asa Taney? Have you raided our homeworlds? You claim you are strong, but you do nothing to prove it."

Taney puffed his chest out. "I would be more than willing to provide Khan Ward with an analysis of the Ice Hellions' strength so he can read for himself how tough we are."

"Your datafile strength is worth exactly the energy needed to destroy the disk." Vlad leaned forward and leered down at the man. "If the Ice Hellions had any heart, you'd find a fight in which to prove yourselves."

"And I will fight your Clan if you are the target of the Absorption, Vlad Ward."

"Ha!" Vlad shook his head. "If the Wolves were made the object of the Absorption, the Ice Hellions would never win the bidding to take us over. The Ghost Bears or Smoke Jaguars or even the Jade Falcons would outbid you for us. The fact is that you and the other Clans not included in the invasion of the Inner Sphere have been left so far behind the rest of us that you could never absorb an invading clan. What we have learned fighting against the Inner Sphere has made us inherently stronger than you will ever be. If there is to be Absorption, it will not be an invading Clan that is gobbled up."

Straightening up, Vlad pointed to first the Falcon and then the Jaguar Khan. "Ask Marthe Pryde. Ask Lincoln Osis. They know that your secret dreams of absorbing an invading clan and thereby taking its place are folly. The only leaders capable of completing the Crusade against the Inner Sphere are those who have been tested in the crucible of combat. Surviving Tukayyid is a test any true leader must have passed. We have known victories and we have known defeats. It is only through these things that we have learned what must be done to defeat the Inner Sphere."

Lincoln Osis folded his bulging black arms across his chest. "Though I may find this Wolf's audacity and arrogance an annoyance, he has battle-won wisdom, for which there is no substitute. If there is to be an Absorption, I do not look forward to bidding against him for the right to absorb any of you."

Marthe laughed. "You betray your own arrogance, Lincoln, by assuming you would be competing with Vlad for the right to absorb another clan."

Vlad smiled and gave Marthe a quick nod. Lincoln Osis came around quickly to the idea that only an invading Clan Khan could possibly lead us to victory in the Inner Sphere. He knows the Wolves, the Jade Falcons, and the Ghost Bears will not provide candidates against him, and likely the Nova Cats will also refrain from nominating one of their own. That leaves the Steel Vipers or the Diamond Sharks to oppose him, but neither of them were part of the original four invading Clans and their defeats on Tukayyid were positively embarrassing. By backing me, he positions himself to be elected ilKhan.

Vlad smiled at Kael Pershaw. "Perhaps, Loremaster, it is time to call for a vote concerning Absorption."

Taney raised a hand. "In light of the cogent arguments against Absorption, I will withdraw my proposal."

Ian Hawker turned on him. "Have you no spine?"

Marthe laughed. "I believe Khan Taney has no appreciation for irony, for it would have been ironic had his proposal resulted in the Absorption of his Clan."

Khan Taney blushed purple. "I invite any of you to step into a Circle of Equals if you doubt my courage."

Vlad interlaced his fingers and bridged his hands, cracking his knuckles audibly. "Had I not recently slain an ilKhan, I would take you up on that invitation."

as well as the novel, Bred for War (again the part you need to see will be underlined)

Spoiler

Quote

Phelan swallowed hard. "After Ulric Kerensky was killed on Wotan, Khan Vandervahn Chistu claimed that our Trial of Refusal was, in reality, a Jade Falcon Trial of Absorption."

The hall erupted with angry shouts of disbelief. Phelan had known that bit of news would shock and infuriate the Wolves and yet he knew it was, in many ways, the least of the news he had to deliver. Chistu had made a bold grab for power because Trials of Absorption were complicated affairs that would have involved bidding by other Clans for the honor of conquering and absorbing the Wolves.

And had this been a true Trial of Absorption, my force would have been at Wotan, too, and the Falcons would never have won the battle for that world.

Phelan raised his hands, then lowered them to quiet the crowd. "Chistu laid claim to our people and our worlds and our warriors. He initiated a Ritual of Abjuration that struck from our Clan rolls the names of all the Wolves who had come away from Wotan and all the Wolves who followed me. Through the action of a Jade Falcon Khan we have been exiled from our Clan."

That information brought no uproar, but the murmuring that filled the auditorium was obviously related to a curious point. If the Wolves had been absorbed into the Jade Falcons, then the Abjuration would have exiled them from their Clan. Since the Absorption had been stated, but not ratified by the Clan Council, the Abjuration could be ignored. And everyone here will ignore it.

As well as Malicious Intent :

Quote

Vlad's victory in the Trial of Refusal over the Absorption should have cleared the way for the return of Clan Wolf. In fact, it called into question the legality of the whole Absorption, which the Grand Council had not sanctioned in any event.

As the Ice Hellion Khan said, the Jade Falcon attempt to absorb the Wolves was bungled & misguided. Here is why:

A Trial of Refusal cannot be just turned into a Trial of Absorption. As you can see in the picture there is a process. ALL the Clans have to meet in the Grand Council Hall & a proposal is made. A vote is then taken & ONLY if it passes unanimously does it get ratified. After that the Clans bid & fight among themselves for the right to do the actual absorbing. Clan Wolf has the one thing all the other Clans desire, the Kerensky Bloodright. Do you mean to tell me all the other Clans just gave up on acquiring the most sought after Bloodright in Clan history?

The reason this was not done was because considering the state of Jade Falcons at that time, they knew if they tried to call for a legal Absorption right there & then, they themselves most likely would end up being the target, So what did they do? What do all weak Clans do to cover themselves? They turn to politics & trickery. They turn a Trial of Refsual into an Absorption then not having defeated all of the Wolf forces they decide to Abjure the remaining Wolves (Phelan's forces). Why? Well Vlad explains it in Malicious Intent

Spoiler

Quote

"Let me ask the questions, please." Vlad coughed lightly. "And I assure you I am in my right mind—I suffered no head injuries. Did we carry the day?"

"No."

"And there have been no reprisals against the Wolves?"

"There was a Ritual of Abjuration carried out against those of our brethren who retreated from Wotan and those who fled with Khan Phelan."

"Abjuration." Holding that ritual made sense because it exiled all those who had fled. Abjuration was seldom invoked, and then only in the case of gross cowardice or dereliction of duty. An abjured warrior surrendered his bloodname, if he had one, and any chance of his genetic material becoming part of the Clan's breeding program.

Vlad would not have pursued abjuration against the fleeing Wolves because he would not want to relinquish jurisdiction over those who had gone to the Inner Sphere. At some point in the future it might be possible to bring them back into the fold, but after abjuration that would be difficult. The ritual was held prematurely. Another sign my leadership is needed.

"Abjuration was believed to be the best choice, given the circumstances. The Wolves defeated at Morges will be in no way associated with us."

"That would not do." Phelan and a goodly number of Wolves had run for the Inner Sphere. They faced Jade Falcons on a world known as Morges. Vlad was not as confident as Marialle of the Wolves' defeat, but preventing backlash caused by the fighting on Morges was a wise idea.

"Who sent you to find me, Star Captain?"

"Standard salvage detail. Aerial survey picked up a lot of battle damage in this area. The way this building had collapsed did not suggest bomb damage, so we were sent out to check."

"You weren't sent here to kill me?"


"Kill you?" She blinked in astonishment. "We didn't even know it was you until we uncovered enough of your cockpit to see that this was a Timber Wolf assigned to the Eleventh Guards. Your name is stenciled on the side."

Is Chistu that stupid? "Star Captain, I am going to turn on my light." Vlad scraped the flashlight taped to the barrel of his laser pistol against the edge of the command couch. The button clicked on and he pointed it at her. "Freebirth!" he cursed.

"What is it?"

The woman at whom he pointed his laser wore a green jumpsuit with Jade Falcon insignia on the shoulders. He recognized her face and form, for he knew Marialle Radick well, but seeing her dressed in the emerald green of a Jade Falcon warrior threw him utterly. He almost pulled the trigger, then he raised the gun and hid her in darkness again.

"Why are you dressed as a Falcon?"

"Because that is what I am."

That is impossible. He could not conceive of Marialle surrendering to the Falcons. Even if she had, they would have made her a bondswoman first and then, sometime later, they might have allowed her to become a MechWarrior again. And she called herself Marialle Radick, but the Jade Falcons do not possess blood from that line. It is a Wolf bloodline only. "How are you a Jade Falcon?"

"That is what we all are now, Vlad. The Wolves lost a Trial of Absorption. We are all Jade Falcons now."

Vlad's mouth hung open. "What?"

"Khan Chistu told us, the survivors, that we had been absorbed into the Jade Falcons. This is why he undertook the Ritual of Abjuration—he would not have Jade Falcons fighting Jade Falcons on Morges."

"But this was never a Ritual of Absorption."

"Not formally, no, but Khan Chistu said that when Natasha and Phelan pledged everything the Wolves had to fighting the Trial of Refusal, it automatically became a Ritual of Absorption." Marialle leaned forward slightly. "I did not like it at first—none of us did—but the logic is inescapable. Our war with the Jade Falcons hurt them badly, and hurt us badly. Alone, neither of our Clans is strong enough to stand, but together we are a fearsome force. The warriors who have survived are the best on both sides. Khan Chistu says this was a crucible in which the impurities of both Clans were burned away."

Vlad scowled. "The Trial of Refusal occurred in response to charges of genocide and treason against Ulric.The Wolves defeated the Jade Falcons on every world where we fought, save here."

Marialle threw him a sharp look. "It was closer to a draw. The Falcons offered us terms after Ulric's death. The terms were honorable and we accepted them. Some of us ran to Phelan, others stayed here."

"And Phelan still fights. The Wolves have not been defeated yet, Star Captain Radick."

"What are you saying?"

"The chronology of events you presented gives me the impression that Khan Chistu announced our absorption, then he initiated the Ritual of Abjuration to exile the Wolves who oppose his Jade Falcons on Morges, quiaff?"

"That is how it happened, aff."

"Yet the Wolves could only be absorbed if defeated, quaiff?"

"Aff." Marialle's eyes narrowed. "You are saying that if Phelan defeated the Jade Falcons, he could return and challenge Khan Chistu to a Trial of Refusal concerning the absorption and abjuration."

"Chistu would not have to acknowledge Phelan's claim because he has been abjured. It would take a Wolf to challenge the Absorption, but all the Wolves here on Wotan have become Jade Falcons."

"Except you."

"Except me. Come, Star Captain, help me from this tomb." Vlad smiled and stood slowly. "Tell me more of this fiction Khan Chistu has created about the death of Ulric. Do it, and I will show you how our honor may be redeemed. Do it and you will see why the Wolves were entrusted to me."

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

The Grand Council approved the Absorbtion so there was nothing illegal about it.

As I have shown you, no they did not.

P.S. This is all canon & cannot be disputed.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 04 February 2015 - 05:03 AM.