190 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

My hope is to see a feather-brush tone back of NARC and LRMs both (speed 160 maybe? NARC fall off after 1 or 2 hits, starting 3sec target decay, NARC dropping to 1.5 tons and 10 shots/ton) and then... beauty. At least for LRMs.

SRMs will bring brawling back. I wonder if we'll ever see them useful.

[Effectz]

LRMs are way too fast right now,the games are getting boring,7 minutes of just hiding behind cover,even when you're behind cover you seem to still get punished by them.

[El Bandito]

Almighty Cico, on 22 March 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

If PGI read this is for them: Pull back LRM to 125 speed, NARC will still do job for LRM boats and UAV ofc Buff srm speed( and I mean buff it hard like from speed 300 to 450-500) and fix HSR on them If you fo that, it will be gamechanger, there will still be poptarts, but when you get into 270 they will take haaard damage from brand new working srms...

How silly is this post. Don't you know LRM boats will be even more screwed by a brawler with improved SRMs, than poptarts? Why then do you want to nerf back the LRM speed? Leave it alone.

[Sandpit]

El Bandito, on 23 March 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Don't you know LRM boats will be even more screwed by a brawler with improved SRMs, than poptarts?

pssst

Look through the threads. Most of the complaints regarding LRMs come from the poptarting crowd. The LRM buff (IE sligh speed bost, no buff to damage) has really put a crimp in that playstyle. You can no longer just safely stand behind a rock in the same spot all game and poptart. You also just can't pop up and down before LRMs can now close the distance. So now poptarting requires a little more actual strategy and change of tactics and builds.

So now the tryhards have to actually try hard to win a game and use the exact same tactics and builds without adapting. Therefore LRMs are "OP" and must be nerfed so they can go back to the only tactic they know or are good at

[xCico]

El Bandito, on 23 March 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

How silly is this post. Don't you know LRM boats will be even more screwed by a brawler with improved SRMs, than poptarts? Why then do you want to nerf back the LRM speed? Leave it alone.

Srm will have range of 270m first you need to bypass all other mechs to get LRM boat man, atleast make them on 140-150 speed then, this is too fast now, it hits everywhere you send them...

[wanderer]

What's driving people insane is that...well...LRMs make teamwork easier. I was chucking missiles out of an Atlas ages before this, simply because PUGs tended to leave my slower 'Mech behind and engage out of LOS.

PUGs still scatter. It's just now some of them have weapons that don't need that LOS, which means they can do what teams did before them- focus fire. Not as well, because ECM and enough AMS will still hose those, and anything packing enough tubes to punch through AMS in any real quantity is a slow, fat brawler target - but they can.

It's why I find people tend to howl bloody murder about LRMs at lower ELOs. At higher ones, they're just getting bulldozed by groups of people who can shut down LRMs and do it the more efficient way instead- and at lower ones, PUGs are more interested about QQing about missiles than learning how mutual defense works.

I was in a River City Assault fight the other day. Team came across with 4 ECM's (all lights, mind you!) escorting their mix of heavies, assault and a single Shadow Hawk. Stomped on the front line. Stomped all over the LRM boats behind them. Won it 12-4, and I was the lone, single LRM lobber on the team. With 30 tubes. Most of the work was nothin' but meta-fashionable dakka.

[stjobe]

Effectz, on 23 March 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

LRMs are way too fast right now,the games are getting boring,7 minutes of just hiding behind cover,even when you're behind cover you seem to still get punished by them.

There's been more brawling after the patch than since I don't know how long. There's really no "7 minutes of just hiding behind cover" in the matches I play.

Guess it's an Elo thing. Or a time of day thing, perhaps, but I'm just not seeing any of what most of the whiners describe. No LRM's "blotting out the sun", no "hiding all match", no "cover doesn't help". Not even opposition with "all assault LRM boats".

What I have seen is lots and lots of mediums, and what before the patch would have been called "Frankenbuilds" - some direct-fire weaponry, some LRMs, some close-up weaponry. And it works.

And I've seen the same old AC+PPC builds still doing their thing, only now on the ground and not poptarting. Interestingly, they work nearly as well on the ground.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 23 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

What's driving people insane is that...well...LRMs make teamwork easier.

teamwork is the single most "op" thing in the game. That's EXACTLY what every
single
EVERY
single
thread about LRMs is essentially saying.

"The other team took 8 LRM boats and pinned us down, LRMs are "op"

[Koniving]

Mizore, on 23 March 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

Yeah, nice... and what about the other 4-7 LRM-boats that are shooting at you when you attack one of them?

Almighty Cico, on 23 March 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

I meant to post that but I realised that there is no point because clearly he dosant play this game, saying that and forgetting about other players, dunno what to say...

Take them into account. If the map permits it, find yourself an LRM-safe or LoS safe passage to get to the enemy and engage them in batches of one or two at a time.

In this case...



We lost four guys within the first minute or two as I hobbled at 53 to 58 kph somewhere in there with my Banshee. I chose an intersection with some buildings to the right and a huge wall of ice to the left and even a cup to hide my approach. Problem was, it had people in it. I didn't care.

I picked a fight with three enemies at once -- all of them playing the poptart game in the worst possible mechs. Dragon, Centurion, and a Jager.

First guy, 2 seconds. Second guy, 4 seconds later. Third guy, I blinked and he died.

LRM boat to the right. Oblivious to my presence -- I mean who actually pushes through the cup of Frozen City? Died before he could react.

Next LRM boat, an Atlas. Roughly 7 to 9 seconds.

Next LRM boat, Catapult. 3 seconds.

Light mech. Ignored. He ran and I never saw him again.

Next LRM boat, a Victor with an AC/20. 6 or so seconds except this one I didn't kill. He jumped a little too high for my banshee's torso to track and he died behind me.

It's only by this time that ANYONE has gotten off their ass to move forward. Enemies are dropping like flies now.

I manage one more kill at some point, then destroy 2 turrets on our way to try and take the base (the last one was a light that someone killed).

Some familiar forum names were in this one on both sides. One of them on my side as a missile boat with 450+ damage, think it was 493 or so and a couple of kills too as the second highest damage and kills on my side.

You can get LRM boats easily and take them all apart within a minute or two. The problem is you must first engage them. But before you engage them, you must first get to them without them seeing you. Play some Metal Gear -- believe it or not a lot of players are just as easy to sneak around. Isolate them or engage in such a way that you cannot clearly be seen by the 'others' when you attack and then take them out.

I did the same thing back in the 4 to 6 PPC meta. Forest Colony, walk through the cave (no PPC boat will want to be near the cave as it limits their ability to get instant kills) and then attack the rear most enemy. Systematically attack them all quickly before anyone types a word out to the others.

I ~Highly~ recommend a ballistic-heavy, extremely heat efficient build. The twin AC/20 thing is suicide. Try a combination of weapons. The score above was achieved with 4 ML (rarely used), 1 LB-10x, 1 AC/5, 1 AC/2, and 1 MG. I'm serious. LRM boats fall apart like popcorn with some of their deaths being before a single bodypart is actually destroyed.

Edited by Koniving, 23 March 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[Daekar]

It's odd. I have seen my pug teams get eaten in almost no time by billowing clouds of LRMs, but it never happens to me, I always die to direct fire. Usually light mechs.

I thought at first it was because I was running my Death's Knell, but I switched to my slowest mech (CTF-4X @ 63kph) and didn't have issues with LRMs. Still died to lights and long range direct fire. I still only have AMS on two mechs.

I'll probably add it to future builds, but I'm not about to blow the C-bills to totally rebuild every one of my 17 mechs when I die to missiles so seldom. I have noticed that my 2xPPC + AC/10 K2 is harder to play now. Can't really complain about that though, that is a really boring and fragile much.

[Sandpit]

Koniving, on 23 March 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Take them into account. If the map permits it, find yourself an LRM-safe or LoS safe passage to get to the enemy and engage them in batches of one or two at a time.

In this case...



We lost four guys within the first minute or two as I hobbled at 53 to 58 kph somewhere in there with my Banshee. I chose an intersection with some buildings to the right and a huge wall of ice to the left and even a cup to hide my approach. Problem was, it had people in it. I didn't care.

I picked a fight with three enemies at once -- all of them playing the poptart game in the worst possible mechs. Dragon, Centurion, and a Jager.

First guy, 2 seconds. Second guy, 4 seconds later. Third guy, I blinked and he died.

LRM boat to the right. Oblivious to my presence -- I mean who actually pushes through the cup of Frozen City? Died before he could react.

Next LRM boat, an Atlas. Roughly 7 to 9 seconds.

Next LRM boat, Catapult. 3 seconds.

Light mech. Ignored. He ran and I never saw him again.

Next LRM boat, a Victor with an AC/20. 6 or so seconds except this one I didn't kill. He jumped a little too high for my banshee's torso to track and he died behind me.

It's only by this time that ANYONE has gotten off their ass to move forward. Enemies are dropping like flies now.

I manage one more kill at some point, then destroy 2 turrets on our way to try and take the base (the last one was a light that someone killed).

Some familiar forum names were in this one on both sides. One of them on my side as a missile boat with 450+ damage, think it was 493 or so and a couple of kills too as the second highest damage and kills on my side.

You can get LRM boats easily and take them all apart within a minute or two. The problem is you must first engage them. But before you engage them, you must first get to them without them seeing you. Play some Metal Gear -- believe it or not a lot of players are just as easy to sneak around. Isolate them or engage in such a way that you cannot clearly be seen by the 'others' when you attack and then take them out.

I did the same thing back in the 4 to 6 PPC meta. Forest Colony, walk through the cave (no PPC boat will want to be near the cave as it limits their ability to get instant kills) and then attack the rear most enemy. Systematically attack them all quickly before anyone types a word out to the others.

I ~Highly~ recommend a ballistic-heavy, extremely heat efficient build. The twin AC/20 thing is suicide. Try a combination of weapons. The score above was achieved with 4 ML (rarely used), 1 LB-10x, 1 AC/5, 1 AC/2, and 1 MG. I'm serious. LRM boats fall apart like popcorn with some of their deaths being before a single bodypart is actually destroyed.

That requires people to adapt. It's just easier to QQ about how "op" something is as opposed to adjusting or not being able to do 1k damage as easily in their meta build

Daekar, on 23 March 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I have noticed that my 2xPPC + AC/10 K2 is harder to play now. Can't really complain about that though, that is a really boring and fragile much.

Which is exactly why there's so much QQ going on. Those kinds of builds are the most popular meta builds so of course anything that knocks them off the pedestal is going to have all of those meta humpers QQing

[Koniving]

Daekar, on 23 March 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I'll probably add it to future builds, but I'm not about to blow the C-bills to totally rebuild every one of my 17 mechs when I die to missiles so seldom. I have noticed that my 2xPPC + AC/10 K2 is harder to play now. Can't really complain about that though, that is a really boring and fragile much.

You'd be the first thing I LRM if I saw you. But obviously you're obviously playing your approaches smart and taking out your enemies promptly; drawing the attention of lights and then swamped. Sadly those getting shredded are, well, not doing so well. Either they get frustrated, scared to move, or otherwise get stuck on what to do because they firmly believe you have to be part of the hobbling herd.

Thing is the herd dies to LRMs. The survivors are those that flank.

Unfortunately, flanking never works when the herd follows you. If the team split into 3 lances, attacking from 3 directions, LRMs won't have a chance.

This is before the LRM crisis we have. Before even the Malinche came out. Just recently uploaded but you'll notice the lack of Banshees and might even see more Dragons.


LRMs didn't pick up much speed at all at short range, only at long range. So far it seems the farther away from the target the boat is, the faster the missiles go. Close in and you make them about useless.

[Sandpit]

Koniving, on 23 March 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Unfortunately, flanking never works when the herd follows you. If the team split into 3 lances, attacking from 3 directions, LRMs won't have a chance.

Unfortunately, putting a team together that can do stuff like this is what's really considered op

[XX Sulla XX]

What I am seeing is we went from one long range meta to another. While at the same time they nurfed up closer Victor brawlers. And yes you can still in some games get in and kill the LRM boats many many games it is just not possible now because of the speed. And yes I use cover well etc. But at the moment I spend a great amount time standing behind a rock reading the news on the other monitor until there is a real chance to close the distance.

[Sandpit]

XX Sulla XX, on 23 March 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

What I am seeing is we went from one long range meta to another. While at the same time they nurfed up closer Victor brawlers. And yes you can still in some games get in and kill the LRM boats many many games it is just not possible now because of the speed. And yes I use cover well etc. But at the moment I spend a great amount time standing behind a rock reading the news on the other monitor until there is a real chance to close the distance.

lol if nerfing the JJs to slow down the turn radius on an assault mech "ruined" brawling for you then, just like the LRM QQers, I'd have to suggest reevaluating your tactics

[Koniving]

Sandpit, on 23 March 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Unfortunately, putting a team together that can do stuff like this is what's really considered op

Some days ago I was playing solo, in Alpha lance and the enemy team had a premade (I knew a player on the other side and he said he had one; he also put a bounty on me). Note that Alpha lance is typically filled with either a premade group or higher end players. Bravo then absorbs any additional premades if necessary. If I'm pugging and in Alpha, then I know that either there's a three man or we haven't got much there. So with that announcement, I took command after the team went for a very, very bad call and position. I started issuing orders. "If we fight them there, we'll be in the open while they have cover. Draw them out. Follow these points, we'll have the cover." It took a bit, but the enemy drew out to us thanks to using Charlie's less than cooperative nature to bait them, and after losing a member or two they quickly began following orders to pull back.

Once we got the enemies in the open, on the opposite end of our cover, we successfully turned the tides. The enemy had mostly non-jump capable assaults, some heavies, and the lights were pretty busy.

I was in an LRM-boat Highlander The close range put me at a bad disadvantage, but this was the LRM Highlander I designed to rival the 4 to 6 PPC meta; it's direct fire capable enough with fast-ish firing, low-ish heat weapons. AC/2, 1 ML, plenty of ammo. I'd LRM what I can. Direct fire anything trying to come around the North edge of our defensive snow-bags (since they're not sand). The entire time I was issuing out orders. The weakened team being hit heavy was always given an order to pull back behind the nearby next line of cover. Alpha had charge of the North, and Bravo and Charlie alternated with responsibilities of the South. Whoever got the second line of cover would try to use it to spot or shoot.

We lost a few players including half of Alpha lance. We still had survivors in every lance which I'm quite proud to say. The enemy perished. Both sides had some LRMs but the mainstay was AC/40 mechs, 'grounded' poptarts (even my Highlander didn't have JJs) and a few other screwballs of interest. At the end of the match I had lost both arms, my tag and my ML so all I had left was the LRM-20 and the LRM-10 in the LT. I was always within 300 meters of the North access to our position, sometimes popping the ridge and sometimes pulled back to find out what's going on with the South access. The hill I chose was both long and too steep for even heavies to climb. The hill behind us though was not so steep, allowing our guys to quickly get on it and off of it when necessary.
There are times when you can get players to cooperate. When you do it's glorious. But first someone has to step up.

XX Sulla XX, on 23 March 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

While at the same time they nurfed up closer Victor brawlers.

Truth be told, my Dragon Slayer doesn't have jumpjets at all. Mine does just fine with 2 streaks, 3 ML, and an AC/5 + AC/2 combination. I did have to paint it basic green to get it to 'blend in' with other 'nondescript players' so it doesn't draw so much attention though in order to get close. The shiny paintjob was getting attention.

Edit: Just remember that your turning ability using jumpjets is borked. But honestly using jumpjets to turn like that was hardly fair at all and is part of why no one wants the Awesome -- if it could turn like that people might kinda use it. Maybe. Well probably not, it's got all that mass because it starts with so much more armor but everyone min/maxes the armor..

Edited by Koniving, 23 March 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

lol if nerfing the JJs to slow down the turn radius on an assault mech "ruined" brawling for you then, just like the LRM QQers, I'd have to suggest reevaluating your tactics

Notice I never said anything about any part of the game being ruined. What I did suggest is that they do more to ecourage short range brawling.

And I can still brawl just fine in my Victors with some changes. But you forgot to mention the 20% reduction in turn speed besides the large nurf to JJ turning. This had a huge effect on short range high alpha fast Victors. (the kind I like). It had limited effect on high DPS and did not jump and twist much.

Now I can switch to a 100% meta type of build and game play but why should a play a style I do not like and find boring? There is no reason. So I play the style I like and fit it around the current meta the best tactics will allow.

[Sandpit]

XX Sulla XX, on 23 March 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Notice I never said anything about any part of the game being ruined. What I did suggest is that they do more to ecourage short range brawling.

And I can still brawl just fine in my Victors with some changes. But you forgot to mention the 20% reduction in turn speed besides the large nurf to JJ turning. This had a huge effect on short range high alpha fast Victors. (the kind I like). It had limited effect on high DPS and did not jump and twist much.

Now I can switch to a 100% meta type of build and game play but why should a play a style I do not like and find boring? There is no reason. So I play the style I like and fit it around the current meta the best tactics will allow.

and my statement still stands. You can't brawl as well with faster heavies and mediums. That's exactly what SHOULD happen

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Truth be told, my Dragon Slayer doesn't have jumpjets at all. Mine does just fine with 2 streaks, 3 ML, and an AC/5 + AC/2 combination.

You forgot to mention the second nurf to turning speed after the other nurf to jump jets. And of course these would not have much of an effect on your because of your game play style. But many of use like a fast high alpha Victor. I personally hate playing slow non JJ Victors. Not that I cant play them but its just a huge wast of the best talents of Victors.

[Wispsy]

No Guts No Glory, on 22 March 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Current LRMs actually turned this into a thinking mans shooter.

More Lrms = more thinking? rofl....I bet you actually believe yourself.... lol :/

Anyways...brawling has always been bad (except when a Centi could 2shot an Atlas obviously), just at the start the average skill of pilots was truly terrible...one of the worst (in terms of competency) player bases I have ever seen. The new LRM speeds has killed brawling even more and made long range sniping an even better choice all round. Basically, PGI only wants brawling to happen in super low Elo, or, in light drops in comp play...which is not so much brawling as hoping your team gets the luckier SSRM hits (you can say that player aiming skill is the determining factor in high level play but when even Lords chose to bring lots of SSRMs whilst being possibly the most confident and egotistical about their individual skills...well yeah light drop deck brawling in this game is simply down to who has more magic missiles...so not really fun, just luck on whose hit the same place most often whilst being unable to see anything due to smoke and shake but thankfully that does not really impair you from getting a lock, one of the few weapons in the game you can reliably shoot back with whilst getting rocked from all directions! but yeah tangent...)


So yeah stop trying to brawl, load up on ppcs Guass and sit back 700m behind a hill...Or get a friend in a light to run Narc and UAV and then sit behind the same hill (although 200m to the side of any other lrm boats on your team if poss) and spam LRMs.