1126 replies to this topic

[SweetJackal]

hideyourkids, on 14 April 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you want to drop in group queue, join a group. 1 solo player isn't a problem. But if the match maker starts allowing ALL solo players to drop in group, we could end up with stuff like 8 + 1 +1 + 1 + 1. . This would be the same as we have now, which is problematic since the 1's cant talk. A solution (like you suggested) would be a group finder.

Thank you for glossing over the entire point that allowing solos in a group queue needs proper communication tools IN GAME. Cause right now a Group Only Queue won't work without a Command Wheel AND Voice Comms, 4+4+4 that refuse to communicate is the exact same situation as 8+1+1+1+1 that won't talk.

Also, by making it player choice, that a player has to choose to drop it into a group queue from the Launch Menu instead of the regular Solo Queue you're going to get solo players in the group queue that want to communicate and work with a team.

Why don't I find a group in MWO right now? Cause it's a stupid hassle and when I play MWO I want to play the game, not sit about trying to find people. I don't need to relive nights spent in FFXI sitting in a hub spamming my build into LFG, thank you very much.

[DragonsFire]

In this topic I have seen no less than 4 "solutions" offered up that are all different from one another and different than the solution being put forth. If that alone does not illustrate for folks that this is not just a one and done kind of deal I don't know what will.

Perhaps the answer Paul is putting forward isn't correct, but you should at the very least have the realization that your personal solution may also not be correct or feasible as well, and I'm not seeing any of that.

End of the day group sizes of varying amounts are going to be allowed, and I'm really struggling to come up with how that's not a good thing especially knowing that it can be changed as the need arises.

[Ngamok]

TygerLily, on 14 April 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

God help you if you're the PUG...our community isn't known for it's kindness in the chat. I say keep them in the "Public Solo" and let the 11-man drop short a guy...

Pretty much. Could you imagine it being 11+1 vs. 12 and the solo guy runs off and dies what would happen in chat?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

DragonsFire, on 14 April 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

In this topic I have seen no less than 4 "solutions" offered up that are all different from one another and different than the solution being put forth. If that alone does not illustrate for folks that this is not just a one and done kind of deal I don't know what will.

Perhaps the answer Paul is putting forward isn't correct, but you should at the very least have the realization that your personal solution may also not be correct or feasible as well, and I'm not seeing any of that.

End of the day group sizes of varying amounts are going to be allowed, and I'm really struggling to come up with how that's not a good thing especially knowing that it can be changed as the need arises.

And that is why we need REAL communication, an actual dialogue.

Not Paul making a post then disappearing into the nether, until he decides what is best and implements it with zero care for the feedback we provide.

When we give 4 different ideas in response to his, he could quote one or two that he finds relevant and maybe explain why he can or cannot do them.

Then we have more to go on, and we can adjust our ideas to fit with what is possible.

[Ngamok]

PhoenixFire55, on 14 April 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Problem is if I for example got 6 people we'll have 6 others on our team we want nothing to do with. Let alone 12 others on the other team.

Private matches are your friend because they need to make money otherwise all you free guys will always have to rely on clan/founder pack people + hero mechs.

[Daekar]

More proof you can't please anyone. This is exactly the right solution, allows groups over 4 to play together and still get match rewards, and keeps the 4-man limit in pug play.

I hope you can pull it off, Paul. Ye Olde Pugstomping days are over and should stay over. Give the teams what they want so they don't try to game the system, and keep everyone (except the pugs that want to drop with a team of 11) what they want.

[RussianWolf]

Amsro, on 14 April 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Public Player Queue

• Solo players
  
• 2-12 man groups. 1 group per team as it is now. Extra spots filled by solo players. (I'll be there without a doubt)

Group Queue

• Allows 2-10 man groups.
  
• Groups can only play against other groups.
  
• No solo players.
  
• Match Maker will not make a team of 11 players
  
• Probability of longer wait times for teams to be built.
  
• Cannot incorporate exact tonnage matching like the other queues.

Seriously just save yourself all that headache remove the restrictions and your answer forms itself Paul. After that you can work on Community Warfare.


Make your job easier, stop overcomplicating.!

Close

Rookie Queue - Solo only, Stock mechs only. Match can launch on even teams (4v4, 7v7, 12v12, whatever is available at the time)

Veteran Queue - Solo + Team, Open mech. 12v12

Lets give the ones trying to learn to drive a place to do so without screwing us up.

[Jaranath]

SuckyJack, on 14 April 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

The idea of letting Solo Players drop in a group queue works, in the right conditions. This does not remove the Solo Queue, this allows players not in a group to drop in a group queue. Why would players want to do this? Why would players want to drop solo into a group cooperative experience?

Currently there is no effective means of finding a group in MWO and there are severe limits on Grouping which hurts any form of organized play. Yet there exists players that want to work with other players but hate the hassle it is to find a group in MWO.

These are the players that would want to drop solo in a Group Queue, these are the players that would fill up the blank spots and make Group Queue work so much faster. These are the saviors of Group Queue.

Given the tools in game for individual players to communicate effectively with their team in a timely fashion (Command Wheel and Voice Comms!) these solo players can work with the team. The people that want solo drops in group queue would be using it in a "Find Me A Group" function. These are players that want some teamwork and leadership in a game and are fine just being followers.

Allowing players to choose to drop into a group queue alone lets them find groups, be put on teams of players that have an idea of cooperation and teamwork. Given the ability to communicate in game means that they can function just as well as the people that dropped as part of the group's lobby.

This is not about forcing Solo Queue players to fill spots in Group Queue, that's always been a bad idea that just won't work.

Pretty much all my thoughts. I recognize the concerns some are raising about the Group Queue having high numbers of solo players filling in the gaps, but I'm skeptical this will be a major problem. Of course, without it being implemented, who can say? But I suspect the typical solo Group Queue player will know what they're getting into if they're opting-in. If there's any doubt, add a clickthrough warning box (with a "don't show me this again!" checkbox!) to the Group Queue. "Hey, these pilots tend to be tough, are you sure...?" I currently doubt the Group Queue would be flooded with solo players, nor that they would be naive.

I think most of the objections to solos in Group Queue are also completely dismissing the above-mentioned benefits to having it. Besides granting experienced solo players the better "pug" experience they crave when away from their groups (schedules, alone time, variety, whatever), I could possibly even see this as becoming MWO's primary group recruitment tool. Drop in the Group Queue, observe groups, talk to groups...

And to those concerned about groups verbally shredding the solo players: Yes, I agree, that would be bad. But dang, if the group behavior to solos is that nasty, whose problem is that? Oddly enough I don't feel like barring solos from your queue if your concern is that you'll be a ***k to them.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ngamok, on 14 April 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Private matches are your friend because they need to make money otherwise all you free guys will always have to rely on clan/founder pack people + hero mechs.

Can you please make some sense? What does me (a 'free' founder guy) has to do with others who bought clan/founder packs?

[DragonsFire]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 April 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

And that is why we need REAL communication, an actual dialogue.

Not Paul making a post then disappearing into the nether, until he decides what is best and implements it with zero care for the feedback we provide.

When we give 4 different ideas in response to his, he could quote one or two that he finds relevant and maybe explain why he can or cannot do them.

Then we have more to go on, and we can adjust our ideas to fit with what is possible.

I agree that interaction is a good thing. But given the Paul bias already present in this thread, how constructive would it actually be? I know that there are some that would actually attempt to provide feedback but how many would actually look past their bias and 'give it a go' as they say?

Either way, I would love to see further interaction as well, but I would hope it would be met with a little more civility than has been shown previously.

Back on topic, I'm also just glad that we will finally have a chance to do 1v1's and 4v4's and the like if we desire, and I'm very interested to see how the adjusted weight matching will play out in the 3/3/3/3 format. Ideally I would also like to see an expected average wait time (a la DOTA 2) added if at all possible. I think folks tend to have less problem waiting if they have a general idea of how long said wait will be.

[Jin Ma]

How about a lance queue? It doesn't solve problem of 5-10 players. but i think a lot of players would appreciate this option.

A group of 4 players drop in as a lance. they are put into a team of 3 lances vs. another 3 lances. No 3/3/3/3 restrictions.

Edited by Jin Ma, 14 April 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Ngamok]

PhoenixFire55, on 14 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Can you please make some sense? What does me (a 'free' founder guy) has to do with others who bought clan/founder packs?

Did you not understand. If what you want it to be able to essentially run free private matches, then you have to rely on people continually buying founder/clan packages or hero mechs to keep PGI from closing it's doors. On the other hand, if the private matches require active premium time on ONLY 2 PEOPLE (1 per side to set up any rule you want), then it helps them keep a cash flow going rather than running to the community and continually offering expensive package deals in order to make some money.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ngamok, on 14 April 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Did you not understand. If what you want it to be able to essentially run free private matches, then you have to rely on people continually buying founder/clan packages or hero mechs to keep PGI from closing it's doors. On the other hand, if the private matches require active premium time on ONLY 2 PEOPLE (1 per side to set up any rule you want), then it helps them keep a cash flow going rather than running to the community and continually offering expensive package deals in order to make some money.

They have a LOT of other ways to farm money off people. There are limits to everything you know. Except maybe PGI's greed.

[Dimento Graven]

Ok I'm going to try and provide a direct un-biased translation of everything, feature related, he stated:

Quote

We have stated that 5-11 man teams will not be supported for the Launch Module and we are not changing that.

Meaning, exactly how it reads. No support for 5-11 teams in the Launch Module.

Quote

However, it does not mean that the 5-11 man conundrum was dumped off the plate and into the trash. It meant that we do not have the resources at this moment to get the Launch Module out on time and include a special rule set for odd number 5-11 man groups. As the numbers indicated in the previous post showed, group launches, no matter what size, were always going to be a smaller subset of the overall game population.

At some undisclosed point in the future there may be support for group sizes 5-11.

No promises made, no expected date of arrival given.

Quote

Our design goal then became to ensure a much more even team build for the public matches and to add the private match lobby system for the competitive crowd. Even with that distinction, we added additional functionality in the private match lobby to somewhat address the needs for smaller group launches as well. It does not directly fix the issue of 5-11 man groups, but it does let them have SOME kind of option to play the way they want to play.

They've added some functionality that does something for smaller groups.

Quote

We have in our backburner an idea for the Group Only queue. This system will allow groups of any size match against each other. It would probably replace the current 12-man public queue. The problem areas come around the groups that are 11 in size. There will not be single player groups to fill that 12th slot so the Lobby is now soft locked and players will not be able to launch. Some of you may suggest that allowing solo players the ability to drop into the group queue would be the solution. A solo player would have MUCH greater success at winning in the regular public match than up against teams.

This leaves us with yet more restrictions: the Grouping interface cannot allow teams of 11 players, the Match Maker cannot create groups of 11 players (5+6, 4+7, 3+8, 9+2, 5+2+4, etc). An additional problem that arises is the exact tonnage matching that happens in the public queue. We will not know what Mechs players are bringing to the lobby. The 3/3/3/3 rule still works but we cannot ask the Match Maker to match exact tonnage per weight class when players are already in a lobby.

At some point in the future, their may be a "group only" queue that MIGHT replace the 12-man public queue.

There are problems with the match maker when attempting to fill out these partial groups with single PUGs.

Quote

Now that you know some of the edge cases, let’s look at what we can do, but you need to keep in mind these problem areas.

Public/Single Player Queue
•Solo players
•2-4 man groups. 1 group per team as it is now.

Group Queue
•Allows 2-10 man groups.
•Groups can only play against other groups.
•No solo players.
•Match Maker will not make a team of 11 players
•Probability of longer wait times for teams to be built.
•Cannot incorporate exact tonnage matching like the other queues.

Private Matches
•2-24 players by invite only.
•Can set game options/restrictions.
•Used for competitive X vs Y players

If I interpret this right, this appears to be a list of what is possible to in the new launch module we 'should' be getting on the 29th.

Quote

Now that you see what is planned and the edge cases surrounding implementation of a group only queue, we’re still deciding when this important feature would fit into our development schedule.

Again, more confirmation they haven't made firm decision on a group only queue, or even how they want it to work.

[SweetJackal]

Jaranath, on 14 April 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Pretty much all my thoughts. I recognize the concerns some are raising about the Group Queue having high numbers of solo players filling in the gaps, but I'm skeptical this will be a major problem. Of course, without it being implemented, who can say? But I suspect the typical solo Group Queue player will know what they're getting into if they're opting-in. If there's any doubt, add a clickthrough warning box (with a "don't show me this again!" checkbox!) to the Group Queue. "Hey, these pilots tend to be tough, are you sure...?" I currently doubt the Group Queue would be flooded with solo players, nor that they would be naive.

I think most of the objections to solos in Group Queue are also completely dismissing the above-mentioned benefits to having it. Besides granting experienced solo players the better "pug" experience they crave when away from their groups (schedules, alone time, variety, whatever), I could possibly even see this as becoming MWO's primary group recruitment tool. Drop in the Group Queue, observe groups, talk to groups...

And to those concerned about groups verbally shredding the solo players: Yes, I agree, that would be bad. But dang, if the group behavior to solos is that nasty, whose problem is that? Oddly enough I don't feel like barring solos from your queue if your concern is that you'll be a ***k to them.

Just going to drop my thoughts on abrasive and toxic people on Voice Comms, since people don't seem to realize that many games have very toxic elements in their communities and have Voice Comms in the game to the point of it being required for the "Intended Developed Experience." (This isn't directed to you though Jaranath, just using you as a point here ♥)

Planetside 2 has a very robust control panel for voice comms. Not only is it split into tiers (General Area, Squad, Platoon, Outfit, Command) but also you can change the volume or mute any channel as well as change the volume or mute any player in that channel. It even orders these lists in a logical fashion so it is easy to find people and the person that is talking is always displayed.

DOTA 2 goes a step farther. At the end of a match you can flag a player for reprimand or commendation for various reasons. One of the reprimand tags is "Abusive or Foul Language" and receiving a number of these tags in a short time will have the offending/flagged player lose the ability to communicate through Voice Comms and the Command Wheel will be their only means of communicating with their team for a short while.

Both of these provide ways for the community to self moderate and create a healthier environment with checks in place to prevent any of these features from being used to troll of grief other players.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

DragonsFire, on 14 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

I agree that interaction is a good thing. But given the Paul bias already present in this thread, how constructive would it actually be? I know that there are some that would actually attempt to provide feedback but how many would actually look past their bias and 'give it a go' as they say?

Most of the bias is warranted though.

The only way to fix that, is to come here and interact, and show us you want to change the perspective.

He comes and makes single posts, that are basically like smacking a hornets nest...then ignores it.

We need dialogue and communication.

[Fuggles]

I'd totally join the group queue if there was a small cbill bonus for doing so. For me I think it would be a better playing experience than the new carebear general queue.

[RussianWolf]

or after reading a couple post about not wanting solos in the Team queue

Rookie - Solo Only, Stock Mech, launch on even teams (7v7, 12v12 whatever is available at the time)

Veteran - Solo + 2-4man, only one team per side, 12v12, Open mech

Team - 2-12man teams and combinations, open mech, launch on even team +/-1 (7v7, 11v12, 3v4, etc)

[Jaranath]

SuckyJack, on 14 April 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Just going to drop my thoughts on abrasive and toxic people on Voice Comms, since people don't seem to realize that many games have very toxic elements in their communities and have Voice Comms in the game to the point of it being required for the "Intended Developed Experience." (This isn't directed to you though Jaranath, just using you as a point here

Not at all.

Indeed, I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[DeadlyNerd]

So basically, we have waited 1 year for you to realize group and solo queue shouldn't be mixed. I'm not sure whether I should chalk this up to the number of failures for the customer relations department, or incompetence of those tasked with coding the matchmaker.

I GUESS I should be happy about this so ok, I'll humor you.