471 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Or you play nothing but Conquest in a Light and never do anything but capture points with a specific focus on avoiding combat, resulting in a positive W/L ratio but a terrible K/D ratio?

Yeah, that must be a real bad player, right there.

Actually yeah, if the only thing you do on conquest is cap then you're pretty bad.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

See its all perspective and you are looking at such a small part of your worth. and whether you had a good game or not. That is Half empty thinking... I prefer the Half full outlook. Its how I keep playing at all in this boring rinse wash repeat gain nothing combat mechanic.

I don't think KDR is everything either. But I am not going to pretend it is meaningless based on some hypothetical exception.

I am just saying that of the people I know are good at this game. All have good KDRs. And in a game in which 90% (according to devs but before skirmish) end in kills, it is a good sign that a person can accomplish the most used metric for winning a game.

[Roland]

Kroete, on 21 April 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Or just have more flamers and mgs ...

If you believe that MGs and Flamers are good weapons for killing mechs, then this would explain why your K/D ratio is in the garbage.

Quote

If 5 mechs fire on one targets, does skill decides who of them gets the killingblow?

Generally, yes. Good players can consistently land a kill shot on exposed locations, and will generally get the final hit more often.

Quote

Is a scout in a light with narc a bad players because he dies more often and the lrm boats get the kills?

Yes, the mech you describe is likely bad.

Quote

KDR says nothing about skill.

That's certainly the consensus among bad players, yes.

Quote

The possibility to influence kdr with holding shoots, running and hiding and weapons that are critseeking but doing nearly nothing to armor makes it as stat invalide.

Dude, no offense, but you don't really know a lot about how this game works.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Roadkill, on 21 April 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

PGI, in the form of Egomane, has answered this fully before. It's exactly as Nikolai says:

Egomane's explanation

Never saw that. Thank you. It's a question I've seen several times before.

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Actually yeah, if the only thing you do on conquest is cap then you're pretty bad.

Even thought the main objective in Conquest is capturing the resources before time runs out???

[Adiuvo]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Even thought the main objective in Conquest is capturing the resources before time runs out???

Yes, it is. Unfortunately the enemy can capture points as well, and the only way to prevent that is to kill them.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Even thought the main objective in Conquest is capturing the resources before time runs out???

That is not the objective. The objective for a conquest match, is to keep close enough in points, so that if things go south you can attempt a cap win, or that after you kill the main enemy force, they aren't going to win on caps.

[Bishop Steiner]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

If I was going to give a movie reference to your position I would have picked Enemy at the Gates, but that is neither here nor there.

I do enjoy the overly condescension of your posts, but I am glad you recognize your betters.

On topic, okay, cool you can come up with some super rare no-win scenario. But that still doesn't invalidate the entire premise that good pilots get kills. I am not going to continue talking about some make believe part of a game that I could probably count on 1 hand how many times I have seen happen, as you will just change the factors and shift the goalposts anyways.

Super rare, and condescending? Re-read your onen posts, there is a reason we have been at loggerheads since CB, dude. Your posts are as arrogant and dismissive as any on the forums, so yes, I treat them in kind.

As for rare and contrived? I can think of literally hundreds of matches won or lost simply because someone was or wasn't willing to possibly eat one for the team and face the superior force on the cap to buy time. I can only assume you are one of the players who did not do it then, and simply accepted it as a lost match for you to feel it was contrived. Or do you only drop in uber-leet 12 mans who have a no cap code?

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

I don't think KDR is everything either. But I am not going to pretend it is meaningless based on some hypothetical exception.

I am just saying that of the people I know are good at this game. All have good KDRs. And in a game in which 90% (according to devs but before skirmish) end in kills, it is a good sign that a person can accomplish the most used metric for winning a game.

Have I once said it was worthless? Some of the best Scouts in the Law have KDRs under 2.0 one or two have one under 1.0 (IIRC) As a Missile boat Cap'n I had a 1.0-2.0 KDR, rarely died but often had 1 kill and 5-7 Assists... I'd say I was a dam good team asset with missiles. Even if I didn't have a 4.0+ KDR. The original point is sometimes to assist the win someone may have to be that 1 death the team has. Be it that they are bait, or actually assault the machine gun bunker.

[AlmightyAeng]

Ya know what'd be cool? A tracker that told you your W/L, K/D kills and assists ONLY when you're in groups. It'd be even cooler broken down by group size.

THOSE are stats we could talk about definitively

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

Yes, it is. Unfortunately the enemy can capture points as well, and the only way to prevent that is to kill them.

Yes you kill 11 of my team I live long enough to reach 750 points My side wins and get the prize as well. 11 died so the team wins.!

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 21 April 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

If you believe that MGs and Flamers are good weapons for killing mechs, then this would explain why your K/D ratio is in the garbage.

Can't speak for flamers, but my Ember's 4MG would like a word with you. Some of my other FS9s have 4 mediums lasers too, yet my Ember has twice the KDr.

For getting a kill start to finish, MG are indeed, crap. Once that armor is open, nothing I own tears out internals and what's inside, faster than my Ember, with the possible exception of my BoomJager.....but sadly my Ember doesn't do that well with just 1 AC20, let alone 2.

And for the "Holding Shots" model that the poster listed, that is exactly where those designs excel at the kill steal. I've seen many a Spider, Cicada, Locust (hard to blame the locust, actually, lol) and Firestarter hold back behind cover, and the moment the armor is cracked, run out and start blazing away, and yes, more often then not, get the kill.

So, I am not saying KDr is totally worthless, but as more than the roughest measuring stick, it is pretty laughable, because it is game-able. Until one starts actually getting to track like Location Accuracy %s and such, I still contest that KDr, Damage and even W/L are far too broad a stroke, with far too many outside factors to count on for much of anything.

The Atlas that play line-breaker, is running a good chance of dying, no matter his "skill". But oftentimes that action provides the tactical break needed for the rest of the team to finish the kill. But I suppose he was a bad, and would have been better holding back and firing LRMs, and living? A proper scout, actually TAGing and NARCing runs a higher chance of dying than a Raven-3L stealth sniping with 2 ER Lasers. But if his scouting allows the unit's LRMbpoats to decimate the OpFor, even though the Scout may have score dno direct kills of his own, he was a liability to the team?

In a team game, with tactics, sometimes one can indeed accomplish more in a maneuver that ends up killing you than not. It depends entirely on what you (and your team, of course... sacrifice play is rarely worth it while PUGing) accomplish in that maneuver.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 April 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Harathan]

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Actually yeah, if the only thing you do on conquest is cap then you're pretty bad.

Capturing the conquest points on a Conquest map makes you a bad player? Please go back to playing Counter Strike, this is not the game for you.

Adiuvo, on 21 April 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

Yes, it is. Unfortunately the enemy can capture points as well, and the only way to prevent that is to kill them.

Which is what the rest of your team is doing while you cap. Please go back to playing Counter Strike, this is not the game for you.

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Yes you kill 11 of my team I live long enough to reach 750 points My side wins and get the prize as well. 11 died so the team wins.!

QFT since I've seen this happen enough times. The enemy team was full or Rolands and Aduivos who's only concern was how many mechs they were killing. Kills were 11-0 in their favour. Points were 750-300 against.

Edited by Harathan, 21 April 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[Roland]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Capturing the conquest points on a Conquest map makes you a bad player? Please go back to playing Counter Strike, this is not the game for you.

Aduvio is much better at this game than you are.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 21 April 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Aduvio is much better at this game than you are.

you drop with both all the time and have full access to their "almighty stats" to state that so authoritatively? Wow, when did you get Stealth Dev access?

[Harathan]

Roland, on 21 April 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Aduvio is much better at this game than you are.

But you're a better troll. Congratulations. Your posts have taken on a rather unsavoury 'dickish' air recently.

Edited by Harathan, 21 April 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Harathan, on 21 April 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Capturing the conquest points on a Conquest map makes you a bad player? Please go back to playing Counter Strike, this is not the game for you.



Which is what the rest of your team is doing while you cap. Please go back to playing Counter Strike, this is not the game for you.



QFT since I've seen this happen enough times. The enemy team was full or Rolands and Aduivos who's only concern was how many mechs they were killing. Kills were 11-0 in their favour. Points were 750-300 against.

You sound like someone who tells his lance to go gamma on alpine, leaving the rest of his team to be slaughtered lol.

[3rdworld]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Super rare, and condescending? Re-read your onen posts, there is a reason we have been at loggerheads since CB, dude. Your posts are as arrogant and dismissive as any on the forums, so yes, I treat them in kind.

As for rare and contrived? I can think of literally hundreds of matches won or lost simply because someone was or wasn't willing to possibly eat one for the team and face the superior force on the cap to buy time. I can only assume you are one of the players who did not do it then, and simply accepted it as a lost match for you to feel it was contrived. Or do you only drop in uber-leet 12 mans who have a no cap code?

Not meaning to sound that way, tone doesn't get transferred well in text, or maybe I am just an ass? Probably the second option.

But na, SwK prefers conquest in 12s.

Edited by 3rdworld, 21 April 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Harathan]

Roughneck45, on 21 April 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

You sound like someone who tells his lance to go gamma on alpine, leaving the rest of his team to be slaughtered lol.

So you and Roland both have amazing powers of insight and deduction beyond that of normal mortals? Is it a natural ability you were born with or a talent you only learned to harness when you were old enough to use the internet unsupervised?

[RussianWolf]

Bishop and Joseph, I'm with you guys on this one.

I did get a big kick out of someone calling this a "Competitive" game. I have yet to see a ranking board.

KDR isn't an indicator of benfit to the team. Its a stat that some hang their hat on for personal reasons.

You want to see kill stealing, wait for the next tournament. Happens every match when they start up.

Edited by RussianWolf, 21 April 2014 - 10:12 AM.