624 replies to this topic

[Bilbo]

Really can't blame a fellow for putting a few LRMs on his mech when everyone else on the battlefield operates at long range, especially considering the state of SRMs. Then again, you really can't blame a fellow for putting anything on his mech. Your play style and enjoyment of the game does not trump his.

[Charons Little Helper]

Bilbo, on 28 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Your play style and enjoyment of the game does not trump his.

Mine does!!!

[Gigastrike]

Well what else am I gonna use when I'm trying to catch up to the fight? 20-30 LRMs is a very worthwhile investment for the Atlas who wants it all.

[Harathan]

So in theory then AS7-D-DC should be acceptable to both Void Angel and those who want to stuff LRMs on their DDC.

Edited by Harathan, 28 April 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Bilbo]

Harathan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

So in theory then AS7-D-DC should be acceptable to both Void Angel and those who want to stuff LRMs on their DDC.

If I were doing it I'd use LPL instead since the longer range is already covered and I'd put ams on it as well. But nothing wrong with that one either.

[Gejaheline]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here.

If you have a look at Sarna you'll notice that the stock AS7-D is, in fact, equipped with an LRM20. A lot of Atlas variants have long-range missiles. If you're piloting an Atlas and you don't have some form of long-range weaponry you're going to have problems because you're so slow; you have plenty of time to soften up a target at a distance as you approach for a killing blow.

The thing that the original post is actually addressing is the poor quality of the Atlas chassis for dedicated long-range missile fire. It's got three missile hardpoints, all of which are in the same section; there are 'Mechs out there with five or six missile hardpoints like the Catapult A1 and the Stalker 5M which can cram just as many if not more missiles on a lighter chassis.

For a fire support 'Mech you want speed and firepower; you want to be able to quickly move into a supporting position and once there you want to hit hard at the enemy before repositioning to keep away from them. Armour is solely there for when something goes horribly wrong, because ideally your brawling friends will be attracting enemy fire so that you can inflict damage unmolested.

An Atlas with nothing but missile launchers does not achieve this. Slow speed means you can't switch position to support or flank. Lighter 'Mechs will be able to outshoot you. Finally, all that armour plate will merely delay the inevitable once something gets within 180 metres; armour is no good if you can't destroy your attackers or run from them.

So yes, please put some long-range weapons on your Atlas, because being shot at without being able to shoot back is a Bad Thing. But remember that the main job of an Atlas is to get into the melee and pour on the hurt whilst absorbing damage that would kill your teammates, and this necessitates some weapons that can fight at close range.

TL;DR: Feel free to put a few LRMs on your Atlas as a supplemental weapon, it's sensible. Use something else if you want to specialise in missile slinging.

[T0ADKILLERD0G]

Tahribator, on 27 April 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

I can't agree enough. Every time I see an Atlas having two or more LRM launchers or even a single LRM20, I know it's going to be an easy kill no matter what mech I'm in. Heck, I know our chances of winning are considerably better.

You may think it's your mech and you can do whatever you want with your mechs, but by bringing an Atlas on the field you also get responsibilities. That's not sitting back and sniping with PPCs, or lobbing a puny LRM stream but being on the front line, intimidating your enemy and giving your enemies something to shoot at rather than your squishy DPS mechs.

It will be even more important with the 3/3/3/3. Having an Assault not filling its optimal role will just contribute to further streamrolls.

This very much worries me aswell...

[Void Angel]

Bilbo, on 28 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Really can't blame a fellow for putting a few LRMs on his mech when everyone else on the battlefield operates at long range, especially considering the state of SRMs. Then again, you really can't blame a fellow for putting anything on his mech. Your play style and enjoyment of the game does not trump his.

Not quite true. We are not playing Quake Deathmatch;we're playing a team combat game. If your playstyle, for example, is "charge the biggest enemy group and trust the power of my awesomness to protect me," you're hurting the team in an obvious way, and the team has a right to suggest you actually cooperate with them. This is similar: making an Atlas into an LRM boat is a bad practice for the reasons I mentioned, much like slapping 6 ERPPCs onto a Stalker is now a Very Stupid Thing. So it's not about "trumping" anything: it's about acknowledging the reality that this is a team game - and that this is the guides forum.

[Void Angel]

Harathan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

So in theory then AS7-D-DC should be acceptable to both Void Angel and those who want to stuff LRMs on their DDC.

For my purposes in this thread, yes. It's a sub-optimal build, but I'm not talking about how to min-max your Atlas in this thread. I am talking about why it's a Bad Idea to boat missiles on an Atlas, though - so that build isn't acceptable to the people who are disagreeing with the actual point of this thread. =)

[Bilbo]

Void Angel, on 28 April 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Not quite true. We are not playing Quake Deathmatch;we're playing a team combat game. If your playstyle, for example, is "charge the biggest enemy group and trust the power of my awesomness to protect me," you're hurting the team in an obvious way, and the team has a right to suggest you actually cooperate with them. This is similar: making an Atlas into an LRM boat is a bad practice for the reasons I mentioned, much like slapping 6 ERPPCs onto a Stalker is now a Very Stupid Thing. So it's not about "trumping" anything: it's about acknowledging the reality that this is a team game - and that this is the guides forum.

What exactly do you propose someone put in the missile slots on an Atlas when SRMs don't hit most of the time and the rest of the team generally wants to stand off anyway?

[Abivard]

3 X LRM-5's. Paired with dual ERPPC's,
The value lies in psyops not in damage output.

But even then, a stalker 5m with 4 med lasers, 5 x LRM-5's and tag, bap, is still much much better in the psyops role..

Of course, these are only good in pug matches and of little use in more competitive or higher ELO matches.

[Void Angel]

Bilbo, on 28 April 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

What exactly do you propose someone put in the missile slots on an Atlas when SRMs don't hit most of the time and the rest of the team generally wants to stand off anyway?

First, SRMs register well enough, particularly on the kind of large targets where their spread is less important. The caveat to that statement is that some people report drastically different results with SRMs - something about the differences in our connections seems to trigger the bug more often for some people. For most people, myself included, SRMs do not fail to register enough to outweigh their buffed DPS - which was what that temporary fix a while back was designed to accomplish. They still suck against lights - but that's why Blake gave us lasers and autocannons.

Second, as I have specifically said several times now, this isn't a "LURMSsuck on Atlasese! U Lu7n to plai, noob!" thread. I'm pointing out just some of the reasons that Atlases make very poor dedicated missile platforms, not telling people to never use LRMs on the chassis.

So in answer to your question, I recommend SRMs - but you can slap in some LRMs if you really want to. Just don't boat them, because of all the reasons I listed in the OP.

[Charons Little Helper]

Harathan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

So in theory then AS7-D-DC should be acceptable to both Void Angel and those who want to stuff LRMs on their DDC.

Needs Artemis & more LRM ammo - but not too bad. (one thing - with 20+ LRMs as secondary weaponry - speed becomes somewhat less important as you can be help your team before you make it to the fight)

[Harathan]

Void Angel, on 28 April 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

For my purposes in this thread, yes. It's a sub-optimal build, but I'm not talking about how to min-max your Atlas in this thread. I am talking about why it's a Bad Idea to boat missiles on an Atlas, though - so that build isn't acceptable to the people who are disagreeing with the actual point of this thread. =)

I knocked the build up in 5 minutes to prove a point; you're objecting to people using the Atlas as a missile platform because it offends your min-max sensibilities, just as much as you're worried about someone hurting your team with a build they personally enjoy. I don't mind the point you're making, just be honest about why you're making it. You're a munchkin and it offends you when others don't behave that way also.

[Void Angel]

Wrong, but thank you for the baseless personal criticism. As I have already pointed out several times -including the bit you quoted - this isn't a "No missiles on the Atlas" thread. Nor is it a vehicle for you to demonstrate your perspicacity and keen intellect by calling me names and accusing me of having Nefarious Hidden Motives for the thread. The reasons I think that boating missiles on an Atlas is a bad idea are explained by my posts, not yours. If you have any constructive or relevant feedback, feel free to post it - but I refuse to take up the responsibility of debunking your unstated claim that only "munchkins" want their teammates to avoid bad builds.

Edited by Void Angel, 30 April 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[JediPanther]

I dislike seeing lum atlases especially when they don't have a single back up weapon. Trying to spam a tag on a highlander as it camly walks up and shoots you is not amusing to spectate but I bet it is for everyone watching from the highlander's view point. Take an mg, take a flamer, use a rock. If all you want is to spam lrms don't forget the original dedicated mech: http://mwomercs.com/...ption-catapult.

They even include back up weapons except the A1 which you can use just four tons for a single srm two and two tons ammo.

[Munin Ravensong]

in my (admittedly brief) experience "boating" any single weapon on any mech is a fairly bad idea, ESPECIALLY on a slow mover. the slower you move, the more combat ranges you need to be able to cover, as you WON'T be setting the engagement range. That said, I have a ton of fun when a light rounds the corner on my "lurm 50" stalker and eats an erppc, and 2 med pulse lasers right in the kisser fired by my "cowardly lrm boat". Now if only my aim was good enough to use ppc's & pulse lasers as a primary instead of a backup weapon......

[Void Angel]

Well, there are several exceptions to that rule - in fact, most meta 'mechs are what you might think of as "secondhand PPC boats." The weapons used by your stereotypical jump-sniper, to cite the definitive example, have typically been those whose range and projectile speed most closely compliment the PPC. Which is why they keep changing that, but I digress. AC Boats such as the Cataphract 4X and most Jaeger builds often make excellent boats as well. While these are not always exclusively armed with the boated weapon, the standard definition of a "boat" is that the build uses the boated weapon for the vast majority of its firepower - not necessarily all of it.

LRMs benefit from boating possibly more than any other weapon system - they are most effective when large numbers of missiles can be fired, either to overwhelm AMS in a single volley, or keep up the screen shake for long periods of time while still dealing damage (depending on the style of boat.) You should always have a backup (Medium Lasers are generally the best) if you have any energy hardpoints to spare, but the more launchers and ammunition you can carry, the better of you generally are.

My issue with the Atlas as a boat is that it doesn't have the hardpoints, tubes, and space to be truly viable in that role.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 April 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[Munin Ravensong]

True enough, that's why my 1st purchased mech (last night) was a stalker instead of an atlas - a 50 tube volley of lurms, an ERPPC and 2 med pulse lasers (at the moment my level of skill has relegated the direct fire to close range "oh shit" fire, and when I run out of ammo & charge in to try to get in some more hits) Once my direct fire gets better, I'm intending on going DDC, but all that direct fire goodness would be wasted on me until AFTER I learn to aim better ;-P

[990Dreams]

I think DDC Atlases are awesome. More money for my Jagerbombs (and just about any other build).

Edited by DavidHurricane, 28 April 2014 - 04:35 PM.