894 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

At the end of the day, it comes down to combinations of weapons. Not weapons themselves. Further combined with jump capable platforms.

Are ERPPC OP? Hell no. They are hot weapons that move slow enough you can intentionally dodge the damned things at 700 meters in some mechs. Is Gauss? Nope. When combined they become problematic. But you know what? THEY WERE PROBLEMATIC BEFORE. Hey, remember before the PPC changes? Back when ERPPC were 13 heat? The Meta was 2xERPPC and Gauss. 2xERPPC and gauss for DAYS on jump capable mechs.

ERPPC got ridiculously hot, people got lazier, figured they could afford the extra tonnage previously devoted to heat sinks to use standard PPC instead, and replaced the Gauss with twin AC5. Why did it work just as well? The combination of PPC and a cold front-loaded ballistic weapon system.

So if anything needs a looking at, it is how weapons interact with one another in the current system. Not the weapons themselves.

As an aside, I find it absolutely hilarious getting into brawling range with a poptart configured mech. Fish out of water. Totally stomps them into the ground just because of their built in inefficiencies (either a min range on IS PPC or a huge heat issue for Clan ERPPC).

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 22 June 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

At the end of the day, it comes down to combinations of weapons. Not weapons themselves. Further combined with jump capable platforms.

Are ERPPC OP? Hell no. They are hot weapons that move slow enough you can intentionally dodge the damned things at 700 meters in some mechs. Is Gauss? Nope. When combined they become problematic. But you know what? THEY WERE PROBLEMATIC BEFORE. Hey, remember before the PPC changes? Back when ERPPC were 13 heat? The Meta was 2xERPPC and Gauss. 2xERPPC and gauss for DAYS on jump capable mechs.

ERPPC got ridiculously hot, people got lazier, figured they could afford the extra tonnage previously devoted to heat sinks to use standard PPC instead, and replaced the Gauss with twin AC5. Why did it work just as well? The combinationof PPC and a cold front-loaded ballistic weapon system.

So if anything needs a looking at, it is how weapons interact with one another in the current system. Not the weapons themselves.

Its more about the combinations than jumping. I think all mechs should have to equip the max amount of jump jets and then make weapons less accurate while jumping if you like and remove some combos that give you very high pin point alphas. Problem fixed.

[GreyGriffin]

You know what would fix it all? Would fix this whole massive alpha strike blowing entire torsos off? Without resorting to the ridiculous excess of Ghost Heat for 2 PPCs?

::looks left::

::looks right::

::leans in and whispers::

Cone of fire.

Guess what. Specific weapons aren't the problem. Pinpoint accuracy with multiple weapons is the problem. Eliminate that and you don't need to jack up every weapon in the game to warp around the mindset of pixel perfect marksmanship.

[Mystere]

Aresye, on 22 June 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

No, he's calling for nerfs against the torso twist, speed, and brawling capabilities of the Timberwolf, which doesn't impact the jump snipers at all, as proven with the same nerfs that hit the Victor.

And at the same time a potential threat to those same jump snipers is eliminated. Hmm.

[Viges]

P2W metaconfirmed

[Gyrok]

Damocles69, on 22 June 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

please. let the adults talk.

LOL...I should post a meme for you to show how asinine you are...

[Mystere]

Pariah Devalis, on 22 June 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

At the end of the day, it comes down to combinations of weapons. Not weapons themselves.
...
So if anything needs a looking at, it is how weapons interact with one another in the current system. Not the weapons themselves.

Not just between weapons, but also including combinations involving Mechs, modules, etc.

But that is symptomatic of what is plaguing the playerbase: one-dimensional thinking. People obsess about individual items without thinking about how they affect entire systems (i.e. one-dimensional vs multi-dimensional thinking).

Alternatively, some could actually just be following an agenda.

Edited by Mystere, 22 June 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

And at the same time a potential threat to those same jump snipers is eliminated. Hmm.

Hmm never thought about it but all the jump sniping meta players do keep suggest nerfs that end up in the end only hurting brawlers.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

WOW...just WOW...I expected far more objectivity from someone in as high a competitive standing as you are heimdelight.

If so many of these things are OP, then why is it that you see more CERLL than you do CERPPC?

Additionally, I would like to point out, the IS ERPPC is just as OP as the CERPPC...which is to say, it is not at all OP. The IS standard PPC is retardedly broken in terms of cost versus reward, yet there is no nerf being called for on those...?

Additionally, why is it that Clans are built for DPS, which spreads, while IS are built for PP FLD, which does not? PP FLD > DOT. This is why the clans have higher DPS, they have absolutely 2 PP FLD weapons, and one of those spreads damage (CERPPC) and runs ******** hot.

Sure I can run 4 CERPPC and fire in volleys on the WH Prime, however, I would like to note, I removed all the LRMs and targeting computer and filled it full of 28 (that is correct 2-8 as in twenty eight) DHS, and it is still HOT. I can fire about 3 volleys of 2 before the seat of my mech is about to burn through my pants.

So, while I appreciate you speaking out on your perspective...the Clans are seriously not OP...the mechanics are different, which means the meta (gasp) will have to adjust to accomodate. I would think comp players tired of a stale meta would like that to happen, instead of sitting here talking about how AC/PPC should remain on top...

Agree. I only have one clan mech that run an Clan Er PPC....I see more IS 2 er ppcs or 2 ppcs + dual AC5 than anything on clans.

On clan side i must say i see more diversity not many meta mechs....and i always have more fun duelling with an other clan mech (because of this) than with a meta IS mech.

So if any ones with non meta is in with a match with me and want duel i m in

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Get rid of poptarting. Then we can discuss other changes. As long as poptarting exists, we can't have this discussion.

[Damocles69]

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

I could not care less what you think, frankly, he posted his opinion on the internet for all to see, and I posted mine, and dropping in the same groups against the same players my perspective is different. Your egotism and elitist attitude does you no favors...

How about you go back to where you came from and come out when I ask for your opinion...?

he is light years better than you at this game. non comp players need to have zero input on how this game is balanced

Edited by Damocles69, 22 June 2014 - 02:30 PM.

[Drasari]

Well OP I feel that you are dead wrong.

The TimberWolf is a mech that gives the IS meta mechs a run for their money. Something that was needed.

The Victor with 2 ppc and gauss or the Phract 3D with 2 gauss and one ppc still better them at almost every turn but its a good balance between chassis. Highlanders with 2ppc, 2 AC-5 and LL, or Shadowhawks with 2ppc and an AC-5.

The speed of the Clan mechs has brought about new tactics as well. I see fighting happen on parts of the map that were never used due to flanking units running into each other.

I have also been keeping track of match times and they have extended significantly as well as less steam rolls (losing team with 7 kills or more). Overall the games are far more enjoyable since the Clans showed up.

Clans do not have high dps weapons either. If you do the math on Lasers you will see this. Damage per tick is far lower. I guess if a guy stand still it's ok? PPC's with splash and AC's that spray damage. LRM's that come out one at a time and get chewed by AMS. All that to combat high FLD meta of IS mechs.

Clan mechs are so limited in the customization due to locked armor, internals, JJ's, HS and engine which severely limits available tonnage. The negative quarks far outweigh the positive ones; usually making CD times insane.

Clans are fine, oh and it's been five days. No JJ fix in yet, no 3/3/3/3 yet and a ton of folks tying out new toys.

I too feel that you are an IS meta mech player simply not liking the new competition. Oddly I can get in my Clan mechs and do great or my IS ones and do great.

Balance is fine between them, tho Clans can use a buff or two to lasers.

[Bishop Steiner]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Thanks for reading

I can't deny some basics to your post, but while Comp is a great place to find what is broken, let's also not let the narrow comp focus color all conclusions (like listening to the HoL and SJR guys discuss "viability" on the Podcast, when it almost all came down to what worked by the current "meta focus".)

That said..... PPCs need a longer cool down. We might need a few other things, but I think it undeniable that PPCs and Gauss, both clan and IS have too high an RoF for their effectiveness. (Especially since we will never get our old glorious imperfect convergence back).

I am totally against removing FLD from the game (especially since FLD is one of the balancers for IS vs the Clans, atm), and I dislike the charge mechanic, so I will alway investigate options outside of that, even the hated Ghost Heat.

But a slower cooldown, and a possible "staggered" de-sync, like the Gauss now have. Except I feel the Gauss and PPC should have to wait that .5 seconds between EACH shot. Since nobody wants to have their artificially ridiculously easy aim screwed with, simply make it so that these PP-FLD weapons cannot be fired in a single shot together. You got 2 Gauss and 2 PPC on your direwolf and want to alpha? Great. Over the course of the next 2 seconds as your weapons power up and cycle, you will get Gauss, Gauss, PPC, PPC .5 seconds apart.

Mind you, I am not putting these out here as the "ultimate" solutions, or such, just ideas, parietal ideas, etc for consumption.

But before you guys push so hard for Clan Tech nerfs, why don't I see you guys posting for nerfs to increase the difficulty and lower the rewards of Poptarting, first? Like my proposal to add a half second extra jj shake AFTER you cut the thrust, to make jump sniping less of the go to tactic?

Since the clans have been with us all of 5 days, while the broken and monotonous poptart meta has been over a year, would that not seem to be the higher priority?

(mind you , I really don't expect you to deign to answer this, being the grumblings of an UnderHive-ite, and all)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 June 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[RickySpanish]

Damocles you are so incredibly and utterly wrong that it hurts my head. Who do you think pays more money into this game, the casual mid-range player or the self proclaimed "elite"? His opinion matters far, far more than yours. In fact, the opinion of casual players who install the game, get graped and don't spend a single dime matter an order of magnitude more than your tired, elitest dribbling.

Now that I've put you in your place I'm going to go back to lurking the forums once a week and wondering, given the complete continuing lack of metagame, why I ever played MWO in the first place.

"The Invasion Is Here" oh ho ho, the invasion of your wallets, for sure.

[Damocles69]

.. it seems to me that bads are defending the clans because they think that clan mechs give them a chance vs. meta

what they dont realize is that all good comp players will stomp them in any mech at any time

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

But before you guys push so hard for Clan Tech nerfs, why don't I see you guys posting for nerfs to increase the difficulty and lower the rewards of Poptarting, first? Like my proposal to add a half second extra jj shake AFTER you cut the thrust, to make jump sniping less of the go to tactic?

Since the clans have been with us all of 5 days, while the broken and monotonous poptart meta has been over a year, would that not seem to be the higher priority?

Yeah I can't take any balance posts from Lords seriously since you've let us languish with poptarting for a year. I'm all about top down balancing, but you guys aren't helping the game at this point.

[cSand]

Pygar, on 22 June 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

WTB: Smoke Dispensers- Highly spammable walls of thick smoke that make it so direct fire mechs cannot aim properly, see which direction you are moving, or see how many buddies you have moving with you.

Oh god, I can see my FPS plummeting

[Drasari]

Damocles69, on 22 June 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

.. it seems to me that bads are defending the clans because they think that clan mechs give them a chance vs. meta

what they dont realize is that all good comp players will stomp them in any mech at any time

Wrong again, but keep going. You should hit the cap for being wrong the most times in one post soon.

[R Razor]

Damocles69, on 22 June 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

.. it seems to me that bads are defending the clans because they think that clan mechs give them a chance vs. meta

what they dont realize is that all good comp players will stomp them in any mech at any time

Post a pay stub showing how much real money you've won as a "comp" "Top Tier" " Uber Mech Warrior".......until you do, you're just a mouth behind a keyboard with a rather unexceptional ability to exploit bad game designs and shoot at digital images on a computer screen...........between that and your paper delivery job you may earn enough to pay for your acne treatments, but your opinion is most certainly no more valid than anyone else playing this game.

[GreyGriffin]

Competitive players should have zero input on how the game is balanced, since they have a clear interest in retaining the dominance of their chosen tactics. Observation based on competitive games should be used to ferret out the dominant tactics and adjust the game to inject more variety at all levels of play.