894 replies to this topic

[cSand]

Damocles69, on 22 June 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

.. it seems to me that bads are defending the clans because they think that clan mechs give them a chance vs. meta

what they dont realize is that all good comp players will stomp them in any mech at any time

Lol

I know many puggers who could also roll anyone in any mech at any time

The main difference here being that the really good players, whether they be comp or not, don't roll onto the forums and complain about the "bads" while giving HJ's to the comp bros, or whine about how X needs to be nerfed

Edited by cSand, 22 June 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

You posted your opinion on the internet for all to see, and I posted mine in response

I backed up my points with facts about the game in an effort to promote discussion.

Evidently you don't want discussion

My points are no less valid than yours, and my evidence is as solid...considering the evidence was your "experience" and perspective on the matter.

Considering that we are playing similar opponents, seeing them play similar mechs, I think you have what I call "new car syndrome", essentially before you buy a new car, you never see it on the road, after you buy it...you see it everywhere.

My point goes to this fact, if all you run is meta, and you are tired of running it, you are going to more easily remember the mechs you see running meta than you are to realize just how many are actually not running meta.

All things being equal, I do not think anyone in this game is God's gift to gamers in this world; however, I acknowledge that I posses above average twitch skills, likely not the best...though even if I did I would not proclaim them to be so (a good dose of humility goes a long way these days...). As for your perspective, in comp drops exclusively, I concede with no contest that you see meta, meta, and more meta, but in PUG drops at top tiers, you see guys trying new things to see if it works. It is an interesting and FUN time to be PUG'ing it up. For the first time in 6 months, I actually do not mind the PUG mentality and having to carry hard...the ability to play ANYTHING else (besides LRMs, do not get me started on those issues) is something I find REFRESHING!

So forgive me if I look for a way to make PPC/AC meta a less forefront tactic and find something else that allows us all to go back to a massive slugfest that was FAR more entertaining than hill humping ad nausea.

Edited by Gyrok, 22 June 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 22 June 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Yeah I can't take any balance posts from Lords seriously since you've let us languish with poptarting for a year. I'm all about top down balancing, but you guys aren't helping the game at this point.

Well, I WANT to be able to. But even though many indeed are superior players, conversations I have with them, they have almost always been through the narrowest of minmax looking glasses. As I said, if the Devs pay attention, the Comp Crowd is indeed invaluable as canaries for finding inherent balance breaks and exploits.

It doesn't necessarily mean they are any smarter than the rest of us on how to fix them, as I am often overwhelmed with Jager's input on the NGNG podcast in that regard, despite freely admitting he is 10x the pilot I am. And too often, it is easy to get locked into a very narrow perspective, and forget your way is not the only way out there.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 22 June 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

OH MY FREAKING GAWD, DID THE VICTOR GIGANERF TEACH US GODDAMN NOTHING?!

You want to take a 'Mech that devotes a third of its total weight to a massive engine, so that it may reap the advantages of improved mobility at the cost of weight and space to mount a heavy armament...and then take away its advantages of speed and mobility?!

I want my goddamn brawling Victors back, I don't want the Timber Wolf to suffer the same goddamned poptarts-only Nerf of Death they handed down to what was once one of my favorite chassis! if this is what twelve-man comp bracket players want to do to the game, then I am proud of being a no-talent solo-dropping scrub! SCREW you guys!

LEAVE THE GODDAMN TIMBER WOLF ALONE. I already lost my Victors to this "It's too fast for its size and too big for its speed!" bullshit. Some of us arenot PPC-spamming poptarts in every single f***ing match we play, and the seventeen strike pilots left in MWO would like ONE GODDAMN 'MECH above forty tons that doesn't move like a paraplegic whale!

Also, and I have never meant this more in the entire brief time it's been a thing: ATTN, SIR. ATTN

Friggin' hell...I swear, league players don't even know what variety is anymore. The only thing the Timber Wolf needs is for the S-variant pods to not be as derptastic-obvious a choice as they currently are. Killing the thing's everything because some butthurt comp guys don't like a 'Mech that remembers what legs are for? Screw that goddamn noise, man...

I knew I liked you...

[Bishop Steiner]

Damocles69, on 22 June 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

.. it seems to me that bads are defending the clans because they think that clan mechs give them a chance vs. meta

what they dont realize is that all good comp players will stomp them in any mech at any time

If the BADs were defending them Damocles, it would mean you would have to be taking the lead. Since you aren't I am going to have to assume its people who have a much more objective view of things than you ever represent.

It's fun listening to you ramble on like you are some kind of premiere player with all the answers. Delusional, but fun.

[Petrothian Tong]

wait.. people are complaining about the Mad Cat poptarting?


what planet are they on?

there are BETTER chassis for that.
*you know, ones with arms near the top of the mech, isnt a giant "hit here for damage" board, and etc etc...


I am more afraid of the dual gauss IS jumpers. you know, those buggers that you cant really hit back.




... and wait... people complaining the CERPPC being better than IS ERPPC?

I dunno about you, but the spread of the damage is a huge turn off for me... I like the IS ones better, for clans I rather use CERLL instead.

tis' more reliable in taking out a piece of a mech, when you have them all hitting the same spot.


edit:

is funny, people start insulting people when they ran out of arguement IE: "Those bads" . when really, usually the side that have a weaker one is the ones that throwing out insults instead of trying to present why they believe ya di ya da.

IE: I am not convinced by any of the arguments presented here that CERPPC > ERPPC
ERPPC much more reliable.


you know what. those "pros" they should make a tourney where EVERYBODY is in a commando with a single small laser.

thats why you can really determine "skill" lol


edit 2:
ye godes, has people not learned from what they did to the victor?

Edited by Petrothian Tong, 22 June 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Jman5]

GreyGriffin, on 22 June 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Competitive players should have zero input on how the game is balanced, since they have a clear interest in retaining the dominance of their chosen tactics. Observation based on competitive games should be used to ferret out the dominant tactics and adjust the game to inject more variety at all levels of play.

If you're accusing OP of trying to manipulate balance to his own ends, your concerns are misplaced. Heimdelight plays the timberwolf regularly and absolutely steamrolls the competition with it. Reducing the effectiveness of the timberwolf reduces his own effectiveness so it seems to me that it's a pretty objective opinion.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 22 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

If you're accusing OP of trying to manipulate balance to his own ends, your concerns are misplaced. Heimdelight plays the timberwolf regularly and absolutely steamrolls the competition with it. Reducing the effectiveness of the timberwolf reduces his own effectiveness so it seems to me that it's a pretty objective opinion.

I don't know if he is. I am not saying that, or at least not that he is consciously doing so. Some of us do wonder though why they have never gone out of their way to protest the already existing Meta imbalance that has dominated MWO for the last year?

The Clans certainly need tweaks (ER Small Laser needs another pt heat, just as a beginner), but there certainly are things that have plagued balance for a LOT longer than the HoL and SJR have generally not been too vocal about fixing.

So whether intentional or not, I would not call it an agenda, but I would say that Heimdelight, and many others may speak from a narrower perspective than they realize. The Comp Guys in the War Room interview with Niko certainly were very very narrowly focused, and thus, biased in their reviews as to what was or wasn't "viable" or balanced, and it invariably was biased toward their perceptions as comp players.

[Drasari]

GreyGriffin, on 22 June 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Competitive players should have zero input on how the game is balanced, since they have a clear interest in retaining the dominance of their chosen tactics. Observation based on competitive games should be used to ferret out the dominant tactics and adjust the game to inject more variety at all levels of play.

Oh man exactly this!!!

[Mystere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 22 June 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Get rid of poptarting. Then we can discuss other changes. As long as poptarting exists, we can't have this discussion.

Nah! Let it stay. Its days are numbered as long as we are very vigilant in blocking any and all "suggestions" designed to weaken, if not eliminate, very fast, agile, and heavily-armed brawlers.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Petrothian Tong, on 22 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

wait.. people are complaining about the Mad Cat poptarting?


what planet are they on?

there are BETTER chassis for that.
*you know, ones with arms near the top of the mech, isnt a giant "hit here for damage" board, and etc etc...


I am more afraid of the dual gauss IS jumpers. you know, those buggers that you cant really hit back.




... and wait... people complaining the CERPPC being better than IS CERPPC?

I dunno about you, but the spread of the damage is a huge turn off for me... I like the IS ones better, for clans I rather use CERLL instead.


edit:

is funny, people start insulting people when they ran out of arguement. usually the side that have a weaker one is the ones that throwing out insults instead of trying to present why they believe ya di ya da.




you know what. those "pros" they should make a tourney where EVERYBODY is in a commando with a single small laser.

thats why you can really determine "skill" lol

What the general argument is despite the context being completley left out is...

A HEAVY can torso twist faster than an ASSAULT.

Why that is relevant is because STD engine meta Victors now find their engines a liability which is the first time that's happened. They still have their wafer thin torso and can fire their PPCs with full arm articulation, but that's besides the point. ; ) They aren't complaining about the Summoner, because a SHD-5M can do meta better while running the same speed and jumping as high, and like the Victor have a wafer thin torso while twisted and can still fire it's PPCs.

Interesting thing is, the Timber Wolf with any S torso omnipod, torso twists slower than an Orion does and a Cataphract almost matches the TBR Prime running a 340XL. Slap on 2 S Torsos, and it twists slower than a Victor. That's all being conveniently left out so that cherry picked argument points can be presented.

What they aren't doing is comparing torso twist speed in ASSAULT vs ASSAULT because none of the Clan assaults are even remotely competitive (which many of them have freely admitted I might add.)

[Adiuvo]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 22 June 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Yeah I can't take any balance posts from Lords seriously since you've let us languish with poptarting for a year. I'm all about top down balancing, but you guys aren't helping the game at this point.

We've often made suggestions that would bring jumpsniping back down to a reasonable level. That these changes haven't been implemented isn't our fault.

Instead of trying to create a strawman please argue against the OP's actual points.

GreyGriffin, on 22 June 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Competitive players should have zero input on how the game is balanced, since they have a clear interest in retaining the dominance of their chosen tactics. Observation based on competitive games should be used to ferret out the dominant tactics and adjust the game to inject more variety at all levels of play.

If you're trying to accuse Heim of doing that point it out in his post instead of speaking generally. It's also probably wise to quote this bit again.

Quote

2xClan ERPPCs is ridiculously overpowered. Following the current implemented Ghost Heat rule, firing two should cause Ghost Heat. This will require two separate shots, and if you want pinpoint, it's at the penalty of quite a bit of heat.

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

My points are no less valid than yours, and my evidence is as solid...considering the evidence was your "experience" and perspective on the matter.

Considering that we are playing similar opponents, seeing them play similar mechs, I think you have what I call "new car syndrome", essentially before you buy a new car, you never see it on the road, after you buy it...you see it everywhere.

My point goes to this fact, if all you run is meta, and you are tired of running it, you are going to more easily remember the mechs you see running meta than you are to realize just how many are actually not running meta.

All things being equal, I do not think anyone in this game is God's gift to gamers in this world; however, I acknowledge that I posses above average twitch skills, likely not the best...though even if I did I would not proclaim them to be so (a good dose of humility goes a long way these days...). As for your perspective, in comp drops exclusively, I concede with no contest that you see meta, meta, and more meta, but in PUG drops at top tiers, you see guys trying new things to see if it works. It is an interesting and FUN time to be PUG'ing it up. For the first time in 6 months, I actually do not mind the PUG mentality and having to carry hard...the ability to play ANYTHING else (besides LRMs, do not get me started on those issues) is something I find REFRESHING!

So forgive me if I look for a way to make PPC/AC meta a less forefront tactic and find something else that allows us all to go back to a massive slugfest that was FAR more entertaining than hill humping ad nausea.

I think we're arguing different things at this point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that you see a lot more build variety and balance is somewhat alright due to that, correct? I wouldn't disagree on there being more build variety. There is. It makes sense considering how recently clans were released. What I'm saying is that despite there being more build variety, balance is not fine. It's worse than it was. The same mechs we've been running for ages, FLD ballistic/energy with JJs, are even stronger with the clan variants. These are going to eventually dominate the playing field much like they currently do with the IS.

People are trying new things. This is good. But the same thing happened when ghost heat was implemented at the 3xPPC/1xGauss Highlander was put out to pasture. For about a month people were experimenting constantly, pugs had a lot of variety again, etc.. Eventually though, the meta trickled down and now you see the 2xAC5/2xPPC stuff that's all to familiar. The same thing is eventually going to happen to clan mechs. The point of the OP was to make these things known and try to curb it before it happens, because the clan jumpsnipers are even more annoying and broken than the IS variants that are everywhere.

[wanderer]

Jman5, on 22 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

If you're accusing OP of trying to manipulate balance to his own ends, your concerns are misplaced. Heimdelight plays the timberwolf regularly and absolutely steamrolls the competition with it. Reducing the effectiveness of the timberwolf reduces his own effectiveness so it seems to me that it's a pretty objective opinion.

It's the source of the problem that needs fixing, mind you. Nerfing one chassis does nothing to change the meta, other than narrowing the number of chassis using it. Fix jump sniping, and suddenly the Timberwolf isn't reliably nailing people in midair in the same spot over and over again- and neither is anyone else. Tweak IS AC/PPC's the same way as Clan ones to a lesser degree, and TTK goes down as well.

[Adiuvo]

Mystere, on 22 June 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Nah! Let it stay. Its days are numbered as long as we are very vigilant in blocking any and all "suggestions" designed to weaken, if not eliminate, very fast, agile, and heavily-armed brawlers.

They're going to have even more problems closing the distance given the ranges we have now. SRMs work again but they still have that 270m max range, and probably around a 160m effective range if you don't want to spread your damage everywhere.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

I don't know if he is. I am not saying that, or at least not that he is consciously doing so. Some of us do wonder though why they have never gone out of their way to protest the already existing Meta imbalance that has dominated MWO for the last year?

The Clans certainly need tweaks (ER Small Laser needs another pt heat, just as a beginner), but there certainly are things that have plagued balance for a LOT longer than the HoL and SJR have generally not been too vocal about fixing.

So whether intentional or not, I would not call it an agenda, but I would say that Heimdelight, and many others may speak from a narrower perspective than they realize. The Comp Guys in the War Room interview with Niko certainly were very very narrowly focused, and thus, biased in their reviews as to what was or wasn't "viable" or balanced, and it invariably was biased toward their perceptions as comp players.

I'm not sure how exactly you want people to protest? Comp players have frequently made suggestions on how to tone down the prevalance of jump sniping through posts like this, War Room, streams... like seriously, I don't know what more you want. Picketing?...

The most recent War Room focused on things that were liable to be an issue. UACs, lasers, LRMs, etc., weren't brought up because they aren't imbalanced. Clan FLD is however. Hence the focus.

wanderer, on 22 June 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

It's the source of the problem that needs fixing, mind you. Nerfing one chassis does nothing to change the meta, other than narrowing the number of chassis using it. Fix jump sniping, and suddenly the Timberwolf isn't reliably nailing people in midair in the same spot over and over again- and neither is anyone else. Tweak IS AC/PPC's the same way as Clan ones to a lesser degree, and TTK goes down as well.

The reason the Timberwolf is being called out is because the other clan jumpsnipers, like the Summoner, aren't really broken. The Summoner, thanks to it's hardwired JJs, can't mount ERPPC/Gauss like the Timberwolf can.

Though this is basically kicking the bucket down the road. Eventually more JJ clan heavies will be released and we'll definitely see a clan JJ assault.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

They're going to have even more problems closing the distance given the ranges we have now. SRMs work again but they still have that 270m max range, and probably around a 160m effective range if you don't want to spread your damage everywhere.

I'm not sure how exactly you want people to protest? Comp players have frequently made suggestions on how to tone down the prevalance of jump sniping through posts like this, War Room, streams... like seriously, I don't know what more you want. Picketing?...

The most recent War Room focused on things that were liable to be an issue. UACs, lasers, LRMs, etc., weren't brought up because they aren't imbalanced. Clan FLD is however. Hence the focus.


The reason the Timberwolf is being called out is because the other clan jumpsnipers, like the Summoner, aren't really broken. The Summoner, thanks to it's hardwired JJs, can't mount ERPPC/Gauss like the Timberwolf can.

Though this is basically kicking the bucket down the road. Eventually more JJ clan heavies will be released and we'll definitely see a clan JJ assault.

And I agree with a large percentage of it. SSRMs, dual guass/dual PPC Dires and the like. If the TBR had things hard locked into the chassis, things wouldn't be where they are now and I agree on that point. But the torso twisting portion I'm against. Clan mechs are stuck with locked engines and that's one of the few benefits of so much lost tonnage. I don't see being able to swap them out as viable because it'll enable dual PPC/Gauss on mediums and dual PPC/Gauss on heavies which would be bad.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

They're going to have even more problems closing the distance given the ranges we have now. SRMs work again but they still have that 270m max range, and probably around a 160m effective range if you don't want to spread your damage everywhere.

I'm not sure how exactly you want people to protest? Comp players have frequently made suggestions on how to tone down the prevalance of jump sniping through posts like this, War Room, streams... like seriously, I don't know what more you want. Picketing?...

The most recent War Room focused on things that were liable to be an issue. UACs, lasers, LRMs, etc., weren't brought up because they aren't imbalanced. Clan FLD is however. Hence the focus.

How about a more visible presence in posts that are actually addressing Jumpsniping? I know you have been present and contributed to many of mine.

Or even making posts like this one, but for the sake of having Jumpsniping moderated?

though a lot of the anti-Lords commentary are based on perception, more than fact, fair or not. Unfortunately, due to a few individuals within HoL, many people cannot look past that perception, and like it or not, in many ways "perception is reality".

Perhaps if more members of Lords or SJR (like yourself or Curccu) took the time to actually post thought out answers, and didn't seem to simply live to rub meta into the underhives face, with a snide GGClose! to go with it, people would be more open.

Believe it or not, things would probably go a lot smoother, and ideas be addressed and supported more unilaterally, if the top Comp Houses actually acted more like they were part of the MWO Community, instead of "Lord"ing it over the community.

You likely think it irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but if Heimdelight and yourself can't post without gaining the same derision Paul or Russ have earned themselves, I would beg to differ.

Just my 2 cts and observations, brother man. Take em as you will.

[Petrothian Tong]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 22 June 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

What the general argument is despite the context being completley left out is...

A HEAVY can torso twist faster than an ASSAULT.

Why that is relevant is because STD engine meta Victors now find their engines a liability which is the first time that's happened. They still have their wafer thin torso and can fire their PPCs with full arm articulation, but that's besides the point. ; ) They aren't complaining about the Summoner, because a SHD-5M can do meta better while running the same speed and jumping as high, and like the Victor have a wafer thin torso while twisted and can still fire it's PPCs.

Interesting thing is, the Timber Wolf with any S torso omnipod, torso twists slower than an Orion does and a Cataphract almost matches the TBR Prime running a 340XL. Slap on 2 S Torsos, and it twists slower than a Victor. That's all being conveniently left out so that cherry picked argument points can be presented.

What they aren't doing is comparing torso twist speed in ASSAULT vs ASSAULT because none of the Clan assaults are even remotely competitive (which many of them have freely admitted I might add.)

hence why I am lost on what the OP is complaining about. is like the OP was missing information... which was like, WTF, this guy is competitive... why would he forget that *what you highlighted*


but yes, if you put it THAT way....
yah,

weeeeeeeak. lol


edit: lol I like this guy. XD

Edited by Petrothian Tong, 22 June 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[Forte]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

I don't know how else to solve this issue of being able to prove my analysis to you other than organizing a literally unbeatable team of 12 timberwolves, or beating you 1v1 with a timberwolf over and over and over again until you believe it with the loadout and issues I described. What would convince you that what I was saying is the reality? High-skill play is honestly what matters most, adjusting values for low-skill environments is not the way to balance a video-game. It never has been, it isn't the case for DoTA/LoL/Starcraft obviously.

To be fair, meta has been broken for a while and not been changed. ERPPCs run hotter and in my opinion are fine. You want to nerf them, better nerf every other PPC or give the clans Light PPCs. Gauss is the same Gauss it always was. Yes it is lighter, but the majority of clan mechs (Not looking at you Dire Wolf) have limited pod space for it so it balances that way.

Clans have been out less than a week. Yeah you found a meta build congrats, it was the build all of us knew was coming. It isn't any stronger than before, just in a different package. 12 Cataphract 3Ds or Dragonslayers (since you brought those up) would have cleaned house just as well as 12 Twolves.

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

They're going to have even more problems closing the distance given the ranges we have now. SRMs work again but they still have that 270m max range, and probably around a 160m effective range if you don't want to spread your damage everywhere.

I'm not sure how exactly you want people to protest? Comp players have frequently made suggestions on how to tone down the prevalance of jump sniping through posts like this, War Room, streams... like seriously, I don't know what more you want. Picketing?...

The most recent War Room focused on things that were liable to be an issue. UACs, lasers, LRMs, etc., weren't brought up because they aren't imbalanced. Clan FLD is however. Hence the focus.


The reason the Timberwolf is being called out is because the other clan jumpsnipers, like the Summoner, aren't really broken. The Summoner, thanks to it's hardwired JJs, can't mount ERPPC/Gauss like the Timberwolf can.

Though this is basically kicking the bucket down the road. Eventually more JJ clan heavies will be released and we'll definitely see a clan JJ assault.

We could fix the problem and prevent future ones by just making it so JJ add options for movement as opposed to an arsenal addition. Make it so you can't fire period while jumping. Done, no more worries about Twolves or anything else for that matter in current meta or in the future.

Many people were mad when the Highlander was smacked hard, people would be upset if the Victor was hit again. I'm fine with them dropping 3 of the 5 JJ in the S into the locked CT or Legs, and then locking 1 JJ in each of the S variants, but the way you guys are describing what you want done is overkill.

Edited by Forte, 22 June 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Petrothian Tong, on 22 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

hence why I am lost on what the OP is complaining about. is like the OP was missing information... which was like, WTF, this guy is competitive... why would he forget that *what you highlighted*


but yes, if you put it THAT way....
yah,

weeeeeeeak. lol

There is a valid concern, no doubt about that. But most players aren't going to see it that way because the reality of 8 TBRs and 8 Victors isn't going to be a part of the game for much longer, outside of tournaments.

The reason the TBR is being singled out is because of it's extreme versatility and it's the closest thing to top end meta as you can get on the Clan side of things. An Executioner would literally be king of the poptarts, but it hasn't been introduced yet and I think some are worried about that down the road. Again, a valid concern.

What I'm against is blanket band-aid nerfs rather than addressing the real issue which is meta poptart sniping. Continually nerfing chassis types to get around that is silly and extremely shortsighted imo.

[Bishop Steiner]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

I don't know how else to solve this issue of being able to prove my analysis to you other than organizing a literally unbeatable team of 12 timberwolves, or beating you 1v1 with a timberwolf over and over and over again until you believe it with the loadout and issues I described.

What would convince you that what I was saying is the reality? High-skill play is honestly what matters most, adjusting values for low-skill environments is not the way to balance a video-game. It never has been, it isn't the case for DoTA/LoL/Starcraft obviously.

I agree High Skill play is where you ferret out the weaknesses. Don't always agree that those same players are the best ones to propose the actual fixes, as the minmax looking glass is not what the majority play by. I think you need symbiotic input beyond JUST your Comp crowd to fully balance a game.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 June 2014 - 03:31 PM.