367 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Jonathan Paine, on 08 August 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

However, we are back to the usual problem - pinpoint alpha strikes with high damage - and the usual "solution", which is slapping a sloppy patch on the most easily recognizable combo.

ding ding ding!

some will argue that point (as seen in this very thread) but that's the truth of the matter and no amount of nerfing or buffing is going to change that. The culprit is PPD for the FLD weapons. Slowing convergence for each one desyncs them all but still allows for truly skillful players to put that damage right where they want it. It doesn't "nerf" anything in truth. It merely forces a little patience if you want to put all that damage in one spot which can be very risky on the battlefield

[Kushko]

Thank god someone at Piranha can be the voice of reason that Paul so desperately needs. Thank you for the rollback Russ, you are the man!

[Daehoth]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

Wasnt really directed at your specific comment. More generically a concern about the BS trying to be used to suggest I should think in an alternative way than I do.

Oh, but you insinuate the same thing. I mean when you say things 'another one of Sandpit's fallacy', you're in fact, dismissing his point of view and trying to assert yours. Door opened by you.

And yet, you're steadfast about your own view and that PGI is doing an acceptable job. Well fine, be happy with non-progress, with unnecessary tweaks, that's your prerogative. Don't dismiss others for feeling as strongly about their own opinion as you are about yours.

[Hastur Azargo]

I think it's been apparent for some time that PGI wants poptarting and PPD to stay in the game the way it is. They could, of course, implement mild random inaccuracy on ballistics, or something like a much more thoughtful Targeting Computer bandwidth solution suggested by the community, but after GH took so much flak for being convoluted, while its actual problem was that it just wasn't the right solution (although I thank it for the removal of 6-PPC boats), I can understand why PGI, even if it becomes inclined to solve PPD, would still hesitate to do so, because there will be another shipstorm from the part of the community that likes PPD.

All of that said, while I agree that MWO is playable, until a direct solution to PPD is implemented, the low average TTK will still be pushing mediums off the battlefield, and lights will still have to deal with occasionally being insta-gibbed, not to mention that general flow of battle will still favor taking potshots from cover over breaking cover and mounting an assault resulting in a brawl (we miss you, Rhino Stalkers ).

It should be mentioned that PGI is probably feeling justified in that the minimal exposure time engagements are more closely mimicking the real world armored warfare rather than brawls, as discussed in a recent article on TMC, but MWO is a game, and with so many members of the community not enjoying it because of poptarting and PPD, I think it's still necessary to implement a solution, and I certainly hope that it will be implemented some day. At that point, ghost heat can even be removed altogether, since ballistic PPC/boats won't be able to dump their entire alpha into a single location, and there would be no need to additionally penalize them for huge alphas anymore.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Kushko, on 08 August 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Thank god someone at Piranha can be the voice of reason that Paul so desperately needs. Thank you for the rollback Russ, you are the man!

yeah the man who said, we're trying to push these nerfs to make em spend coolant modules on clan mechs, make a crazy one that we'll revert and they'll praise us for nerfing their weapons and will need to guy colant to be competative.

you're right russ is the puppetmaster.

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 08 August 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

ok we're done
it's apparent you're not interested in any discussion to help improve the game. You refuse to or can't be impartial. If any "fix" they had implemented in the past 3 years had worked, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

So does anyone else want to discuss how to fix PPD and FLD?

I honestly feel the slowed convergence would fix all of that and lead to a better balance of weapons across the board. The distinction between lasers and ACs becomes a little more distinct, PPD is either spread out without losing PPD OR the attacker must expose themselves to return fire for an extended period to get to that perfect convergence, it completely removes high point quick shot alpha strikes. Above all else it's not complicated. MWO already accounts for this because we have crosshairs in the first place so it wouldn't require building a mechanic from the ground up

We'd be looking at adding a couple of crosshairs that would track. That's it. They can be adjusted for each weapon as previously stated so there are more perks to smaller bore weapons and diverse loadouts.

I've already offered comment about convergance and PPD/FLD. And like I sadi dont see it again as a complete solution to those issuses. It is in itself yet another band aid to look at seperating weapons fire which can be done with desyncing and other methods to limit weapon use in certain formats.

When the reticles do converge you still have PPD/FLD all your doing is delaying this, it also does not remove issues with snap fire at close range. This can equally be achieved with adding/changing durations to weapons fire and their relative speeds and other qualities for how they approach various targets. And without the need to have a highly convoluted system adding processing requirements and additional mechanics that need to be supported in the game. One that could have a practical impact to the existing netcode that is potentially struggling to introduce further features into the game.

I thus dont consider it to be a mirable cure for the issues you describe and likely be another convoluted band aid. One that has the potential to remove a considerable aspect of fun in a twitch based fps (imho).

And Sandpit, your crystal ball doesnt work on me, so give up trying to project how I think or what my concerns are.

But please lets waste loads of developer time that could be invested for CW for the sake of impartiality and to keep the children happy.

[Noesis]

Daehoth, on 08 August 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

Oh, but you insinuate the same thing. I mean when you say things 'another one of Sandpit's fallacy', you're in fact, dismissing his point of view and trying to assert yours. Door opened by you.

And yet, you're steadfast about your own view and that PGI is doing an acceptable job. Well fine, be happy with non-progress, with unnecessary tweaks, that's your prerogative. Don't dismiss others for feeling as strongly about their own opinion as you are about yours.

I'm dissmissing the obvious fallacies in the opinion. Sandpit and yourself are allowed your opinions even if they are wrong. But if you declare them as fact when they are not, well, sorry if the truth hurts and it is a premise to support your opinions.

Don't think you can comfort me with lies.

[Sandpit]

Azargo, on 08 August 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

I think it's been apparent for some time that PGI wants poptarting and PPD to stay in the game the way it is. They could, of course, implement mild random inaccuracy on ballistics, or something like a much more thoughtful Targeting Computer bandwidth solution suggested by the community, but after GH took so much flak for being convoluted, while its actual problem was that it just wasn't the right solution (although I thank it for the removal of 6-PPC boats), I can understand why PGI, even if it becomes inclined to solve PPD, would still hesitate to do so, because there will be another shipstorm from the part of the community that likes PPD.

All of that said, while I agree that MWO is playable, until a direct solution to PPD is implemented, the low average TTK will still be pushing mediums off the battlefield, and lights will still have to deal with occasionally being insta-gibbed, not to mention that general flow of battle will still favor taking potshots from cover over breaking cover and mounting an assault resulting in a brawl (we miss you, Rhino Stalkers ).

It should be mentioned that PGI is probably feeling justified in that the minimal exposure time engagements are more closely mimicking the real world armored warfare rather than brawls, as discussed in a recent article on TMC, but MWO is a game, and with so many members of the community not enjoying it because of poptarting and PPD, I think it's still necessary to implement a solution, and I certainly hope that it will be implemented some day. At that point, ghost heat can even be removed altogether, since ballistic PPC/boats won't be able to dump their entire alpha into a single location, and there would be no need to additionally penalize them for huge alphas anymore.

that's just it though. slowed convergence like I suggested would do just that. Keep poptarting and PPD in the game, it would just mitigate it. Then stuff like targeting computers could help decrease the convergence delay. It opens up a lot of options. It also prevents those big damage alphas from striking the exact point instantly.

GalaxyBluestar, on 08 August 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

yeah the man who said, we're trying to push these nerfs to make em spend coolant modules on clan mechs, make a crazy one that we'll revert and they'll praise us for nerfing their weapons and will need to guy colant to be competative.

you're right russ is the puppetmaster.

^doesn't drink kool-aid lol

[Daehoth]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

I'm dissmissing the obvious fallacies in the opinion. Sandpit and yourself are allowed your opinions even if they are wrong. But if you declare them as fact when they are not, well, sorry if the truth hurts and it is a premise to support your opinions.

Don't think you can comfort me with lies.

We're entitled our opinions, but we are wrong...omg...lol..you crack me up.
You're one of those blokes who can't even accept the possibility of a different viewpoint...truly...PGI has you in their pockets...probably rigged your account so that nothing is nerfed at all....lol

I'm not going to continue entertaining your obvious fallacy. Continue quoting me, spewing whatever you want to or drinking whatever dillusional coolade you're drinking..

I'm gonna hang with Sandpit and common sense over here.
-out-

Edited by Daehoth, 08 August 2014 - 11:07 PM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

And Sandpit, your crystal ball doesnt work on me, so give up trying to project how I think or what my concerns are.

But please lets waste loads of developer time that could be invested for CW for the sake of impartiality and to keep the children happy.

this is why I'm now just blocking your posts. I just wanted to point out that the only one between you and I using sarcastic invalid remarks and personal attacks is you. Not me. You're incapable of being impartial

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

When the reticles do converge you still have PPD/FLD all your doing is delaying this, it also does not remove issues with snap fire at close range. This can equally be achieved with adding/changing durations to weapons fire and their relative speeds and other qualities for how they approach various targets. And without the need to have a highly convoluted system adding processing requirements and additional mechanics that need to be supported in the game. One that could have a practical impact to the existing netcode that is potentially struggling to introduce further features into the game.
.

at least you proved you read it. You just dont' either understand it or want to admit that it does exactly what I stated it does (more than once). It was NEVER said that it would remove FLD and PPD. It said it would MITIGATE it. If you had bothered to read anything else (or understand it) you'd know that slowing each of those weapons down makes it impossible for a player to just pop up quickly and unload their entire arsenal into one location instantly. That effectively removes poptarting as the "ultimate" tactic but does not remove it as a viable tactic.
It also prevents "cheese" builds like AC40s from rounding a corner and instantly having BOTH AC20s converge on one single hit location but STILL makes them a viable build because 2 AC20's are STILL able to put 40 damage on you with accuracy, just NOT in a SINGLE LOCATION.
It also prevents 40-50 point alphas from instantly putting all of that damage in one single location.

Now I'm done with you in the hopes that some of the other community members would actually like to discuss convergence instead of "crystal balls" and "children"
good day to you gl&gh in your future endeavors

[Noesis]

So another band aid that may not be that helpful or significant to overall gameplay but again deals with edge cases. This is your wonder solution that solves all gaming balance that rights the last 3 years of PGI endeveours is it Sandpit? *sigh*

If it can be done and doesnt effect things or gaming enjoyment too significantly then stick it in. Doesnt matter if we keep delaying CW with lots of band aid solutions adding to the support pile and chewing up gaming resources as per your original concern does it?

Or the idea that it then has the potential to have a knock on effect to overall balance concerns that then need to be readjusted due to a change in global mechanics to all if not most weapons?

But lets do it, add it in, I have to concede it could bring some value to the game like the other balance mechanics.

Edited by Noesis, 08 August 2014 - 11:23 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 08 August 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

If you are one of these players, now would be an excellent opportunity to remove your feedback from this thread, or update it after playing a few matches. This thread and sub-forum are intended to obtain live feedback from those who had played with the changes presented.

I dropped in training grounds. Enough to judge the changes. I'm moreover not referring to the changes you made, more to the chages you did not realise. Since over a year you jump around the baseissues. I don't like the idea of random aim, so to me the fix would be:

• Heatsystem rework
  
• PPC and any ballisitc decouple or altnerative a creation of a target computer load system (with removing heat penalties)

What you did with this patch is show that you don't really understand your game. You get tips from pseudo pros (which were not wrong on the CERLL) instead of fighting baseissues.

That is why I'm angry. That is why, even though I bought any package you have thrown at us until now, I won't ->invest<- more money in this game. What you do is "patch your own graves", like Black Prophecy did.

[Mazzyplz]

really!?!? nerf the inner sphere?!

you make me rage so much pgi, the erppc for the inner sphere didn't need a nerf - this is so frustrating,
the mechanic for the dire whale was complicated but everybody told you it was preferable, and again you ignore what people are saying...

i will play this game a looot less until you come to your senses, hopefully sometime soon

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Well, lets compare the IS and CLAN-ER-LL:

DPS:
2.12/2.14 - wow, so the Clan ER-LL practically got the same DPS
HPS: 2.0/1.71 - Oh - WOW, the Clan ER-LL is even cooler than the IS counterpart, did you even check your numbers?

The Beam Duration makes this weapon now to something only usable in its own niche - meaning: Boating
Before, you could use that weapon together with other stuff, to get a more mixed lineup, now you encouraged boating even more, as the usage of weapons got more separated.

The ER-PPC/Gauss Daishi is still present, but you see a shift to maximum dakka-Daishis, which is killing stuff right and left as good as his brother. Any configuration of the daishi got the potential to kill anything on the battlefield. So, what would your reaction be this time? Nerfing all weapons, that could be build into that thing? Why don't you listen to some suggestions made in the feedback-topics?

You don't care. The reason this game got so many fans is because they are passionate about this genre, and you **** it right now. The worst thing: We stand beside and have to watch you doing it, because you own the IP rights. The whole scene feels morbid.

[HuganMcBabyEater]

I'd much prefer less-range/lightning-speed vs normal-range/slug-speed on my (supposed) lightning-guns. My AWS-9M is really feeling it atm.

So far, a few hawks and whales have seen my PPCs flying at them from 400-500 m out, and managed to dodge the shots from a standing-start.

Edited by HuganMcBabyEater, 09 August 2014 - 02:18 AM.

[Crucii]

OK guys (PGI), you've had your fun. Please bring back the PPCs to normal. The actual PPC change is ridiculous! Instead of concentrating on weapons that are fine for most players, please focus on things that really need your attention.

One example: Bring the 2xGauss + 2x ERPPC link online. A 35 pinpoint alpha at IS ranges with gauss delay (charge) is not a problem, a 50 pinpoint alpha at clan ranges is. Even a light can deal with 35 ppd (in most cases) but not with 50 ppd!

Thanks in advance.

Crucii

[StoneMason]

Brief thoughts. Getting the plans for the balance changes out a week earlier would do wonders for the community reaction...

PPC speed: Needs to be about 200 m/s faster to make the weapon FUN. Post patch it's a nice throwback to MW2 but I don't think they can compare thematically to the terrifying whip crack PPC's you've had up until now. I've found Gauss + PPC sniping to much less of a problem in recent months anyway and even the bad times tended to be more about top of weight class balancing issues.

CERLLS: Haven't tried them personally but glad for the changes, previously it was a little too easy to lose armour when stuck under the beams for 2-3 seconds. All the changes should help to fix that, 3 beams for ghost heat was the right call.

[Reno Blade]

I gave you the numbers in the last thread, now lets see the new numbers too.

Before the rollback:

Quote

Numbers
the change from 8.5 heat to 9.0 heat increases the GH of the 3rd laser from 4.59 to 4.86. thats nothing!
Add the change from >2 to >1 for GH changes:
2nd laser +2.16 heat for a total extra on 3rd laser 7.02 heat. Thats average.

Now to change the mod from 3 to 12
First with 9 heat and limit of >2 it would do 19.44 extra heat on the 3rd laser.
Now with the change to >1 the second laser will do additional 8.64 heat which pushes the 3rd up to additional 28.08 heat.
Nobody will use 3 cERLL together anymore, but 2 will be quite hot also.

1cERLL = 9 heat, 1cERPPC = 15 heat
2cERLL = 26.64 heat, 2cERPPC = 30 heat
3cERLL = 55.09 heat, 3cERPPC = 57.15 heat

Now after the rollback to >2 the underlined part will fall off and we will have only 19.44 extra heat on the 3rd laser compared to 4.59 before the first hotfix.
Very good numbers.
This will bring the Numbers to this:
1cERLL = 9 heat, 1cERPPC = 15 heat
2cERLL = 18 heat, 2cERPPC = 30 heat
3cERLL = 46.44 heat, 3cERPPC = 57.15 heat

Here is how it looks on a chart compared to before the first patch (orange) and after (light blue) and then now after the rollback (red) and withouth heatscale (dark blue).

Where you could shoot 4 cERLL together for 49 heat you can now only shoot 3 cERLL for 46.44 heat.

Edited by Reno Blade, 09 August 2014 - 02:12 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Seeing you hate sniping what gameplay are you going to add? Everyone standing in a line shooting lasers is getting boring.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 August 2014 - 01:28 AM.

[tangles 253]

the ppc are so slow... so, so slow. and their hit detection seems off now, although they do group quite well with the ac20/10 combos now, so its turned them into a pinpoint brawler thing again....