946 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

AUSwarrior24, on 23 August 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

It's sad, but I think you'll find most of this community would be better suited playing chess rather than MechWarrior. Gone our the days where players enjoyed a game that provided a challenge. Gone is the satisfaction of beating something unfairly stacked against you.

Now people want games that hold their hands, provide completely symmetrical balance and never give them a challenge.

It's interesting how it's always the same names that seem to argue about those things too, isn't it? Complaints about everything from the solo queue, to clan balance, to the matchmaker, to Elo, to the meta, etc. all involve the same people that just seem like they are never content with what MWO has to offer.

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

It's called 'the solo queue'.

This is what makes it a different queue from 'the group queue'.

What you are doing is trying to exploit in the solo queue quite literally because you can't hack the group queue to play in groups. Group queues too hard? PLAY PRIVATE MATCHES.

Well, if PGI created challenges that the group queue could participate in, you wouldn't have a sync dropping problem in the first place, because most of the time the reason people try to sync drop is so they can play the same game with their friends (regardless of what team they're on), and has little to nothing to do with any advantage.

That's what you folks don't understand about us group players. We don't care about your queue. We absolutely DESPISE your queue. We have a much higher chance in winning by creating a large group in the group queue than we do having 3-4 people in the solo queue. The solo queue is too unpredictable when it comes to teammates, and even back in the days of 4-man groups, 4 players often weren't enough to carry a team of 8 braindead players.

However, PGI has decreed that all challenges shall be solo queue only, forcing us group players to mingle amongst their ilk for most of the weekend.

So really, there isn't any other reason we would sync drop other than to have at least 1 person in the game who we know. It doesn't matter if they're on our team or not, because it isn't about an advantage. It's simply being able to see a recognizable face that makes the game more enjoyable, and it happens randomly out of the blue far more often than the act of sync dropping itself.

As for the solo queue itself. In the entire history of MWO the solo queue has never been as exclusive to solo players as it is now. The occurrence of people sync dropping is so rare that it is pretty much a non-existent factor when it comes to your W/L ratio. If every game had 2-4 people sync dropping within it, then it would be an actual issue worth discussing, but as it stands right now, you're going to play dozens and dozens of games before you run into a deliberate sync drop, and most of the time it will be less than 3 players, and will have little to no outcome on that SINGLE match.

Also, what about unintentional sync drops? If I'm dropping solo and I see JayZ, JagerXII, or another recognizable player on my team, is it "unfair" for me to go over to their TS? What about somebody in my own TS? Is it unfair for me to switch channels? Am I required by the laws of Pugland to stay in my channel?

[Sandpit]

One other thing I'd like to make an observation on.

Solo queue does NOT mean solo play. It means random team. There's no such thing as solo play in this game. you're on a team regardless of what queue you're dropping in. The only difference is one queue allows you to have voip. Oh, and the group queue artificially inflates your Elo. Oh, and the group queue averages the entire team's Elo. Oh, and the group queue drops you against 12man "competitive" groups.

That's another thing. Why is it "ok" for 12mans (who have just as much advantage over small groups since they have 12 people on comms as premades have over pugs since not everyone on the team is on comms with one another) to drop against small groups? It's the same exact principle that everyone (including PGI) uses to justify groups having an "advantage".


PUGs = text to communicate

small groups (we'll use an example of 3man, 4man, 5man on one team) = text to communicate to the other groups on their team

12mans = comms for every player on their team.


I'm not complaining at all, I'm just pointing out that it's a bit hypocritical and the exact same principle.

DaZur, on 23 August 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Sand... You gotta alert us when your taking your meds and when you're not.

Times like tonight you are a beacon of rational thought and others I'm pretty sure are the result of an unscripted suplex...

lol I'm just pointing out that it's a misrepresentation to say sync dropping is "cheating". It's not against the rules. It's not a bannable offense. It's not something PGI has ever said "don't do it".

[Kjudoon]

I knew Sandpit would get it.

[Sandpit]

Aresye, on 23 August 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

Also, what about unintentional sync drops? If I'm dropping solo and I see JayZ, JagerXII, or another recognizable player on my team, is it "unfair" for me to go over to their TS? What about somebody in my own TS? Is it unfair for me to switch channels? Am I required by the laws of Pugland to stay in my channel?

That's the other side of it. So if I drop into a game in the solo queue and I randomly get dropped into a team with 2-3 members of my unit, it's "cheating" to jump on TS with each other?

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

I knew Sandpit would get it.

I drop in all 3 queues. I understand the differences between the queues. The only difference in a group and a team comprised of solo players is Voip. That's it. There is absolutely no difference in those two teams.

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

The people need to quit pretending and acting like it is in Derptown.




Absolutely, and a fair one.



Is it? How do you solve accidental syncs? You don't think for one second those haven't been happening constantly throughout the entirety of this queue's existence and will never go away, did you?



Really? What do you think the group queue is? Do you understand what the key difference is between a group and a solo sync?

1. A group will automatically drop same side no matter what.
2. The elo differences are averaged out hiding the good players and the bad players creating major elo mismatches.

1. A solo Sync may or may not have all members drop onto the same map.
2. A solo Sync may or may not end up on the same team.
3. A solo Sync WILL have far better elo matches because there is no group so elo is balanced individually, not by group average

Note the major differences? Still think a sync drop is the same as a group?




Fine, make Private Matches give CBills and XP. If no, then that is not an option. As I have proven above, a Sync Drop is not the same as a group drop. Your position is insulting and petulant and pushing tantrum level. This is not an exploit. This is not cheating. It is time to cowboy up and accept that



The point is I shouldn't have to in a F2P game. There is no rule against Sync Drop. Why don't you play in private matches against your friends then?




I think it's more feeble to blame losses and bad play on sync drops. Come on. You should be better than this.


I have a Thesaurus... a dinosaur with a very large vocabulary.

I'm not blaming anything on syncdrops. I doubt I've ever lost a match to a syncdrop.

The fact that people do syncdrop though....

Well, you've tried to make excuses as to why some people just can't handle the crushing rigors of the group queue and have to play in a group in the solo queue - because, well, they need an advantage to have fun.

There are no excuses. It's exploiting. Trying to say 'well it happens by accident' doesn't mean it's legit and it's absolutely absurd to pretend that it is. You're trying to say that since your exploiting probably isn't hurting me directly it's okay, that just shows how weak it is.

You're trying to say 'it's only a bit of an advantage' and 'sometimes it doesn't even work' and the like.

It's not a 'fair advantage'. It's exploiting the matchmaker for an advantage, same as syncing has always been. Now it's just even more feeble because there's a group queue. There is absolutely no reason for doing so; there is a group queue and private matches.

There will always be people who exploit and cheat. Some people are just, well, inherently unable to deal with what everyone else deals with. Dead weight is dead weight and some people need to try and cheat the system for that little extra bit because, ZOMG, they just can't be expected to play by the same rules everyone else does.

Which... makes it okay?

No. It's exploiting and it's feeble. That it's not worth the hassle for PGI to try and address is just part of how feeble it is. Pretending that it's not is just adding feeble excuses to why it's okay to exploit.

You want to play with friends? Group queue, private matches, private premium matches. You don't want that though. You want to play in a group against pugs, specifically because you can't handle playing in a group against groups or playing as a pug against pugs. Trying to pretend that's legit....

lol. Best of luck to you.

[Aresye]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

That's the other side of it. So if I drop into a game in the solo queue and I randomly get dropped into a team with 2-3 members of my unit, it's "cheating" to jump on TS with each other?

Yup. You SHALL use only the in-game text chat to communicate the exact same things you would say verbally.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 23 August 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

It's interesting how it's always the same names that seem to argue about those things too, isn't it? Complaints about everything from the solo queue, to clan balance, to the matchmaker, to Elo, to the meta, etc. all involve the same people that just seem like they are never content with what MWO has to offer.



Well, if PGI created challenges that the group queue could participate in, you wouldn't have a sync dropping problem in the first place, because most of the time the reason people try to sync drop is so they can play the same game with their friends (regardless of what team they're on), and has little to nothing to do with any advantage.

That's what you folks don't understand about us group players. We don't care about your queue. We absolutely DESPISE your queue. We have a much higher chance in winning by creating a large group in the group queue than we do having 3-4 people in the solo queue. The solo queue is too unpredictable when it comes to teammates, and even back in the days of 4-man groups, 4 players often weren't enough to carry a team of 8 braindead players.

However, PGI has decreed that all challenges shall be solo queue only, forcing us group players to mingle amongst their ilk for most of the weekend.

So really, there isn't any other reason we would sync drop other than to have at least 1 person in the game who we know. It doesn't matter if they're on our team or not, because it isn't about an advantage. It's simply being able to see a recognizable face that makes the game more enjoyable, and it happens randomly out of the blue far more often than the act of sync dropping itself.

As for the solo queue itself. In the entire history of MWO the solo queue has never been as exclusive to solo players as it is now. The occurrence of people sync dropping is so rare that it is pretty much a non-existent factor when it comes to your W/L ratio. If every game had 2-4 people sync dropping within it, then it would be an actual issue worth discussing, but as it stands right now, you're going to play dozens and dozens of games before you run into a deliberate sync drop, and most of the time it will be less than 3 players, and will have little to no outcome on that SINGLE match.

Also, what about unintentional sync drops? If I'm dropping solo and I see JayZ, JagerXII, or another recognizable player on my team, is it "unfair" for me to go over to their TS? What about somebody in my own TS? Is it unfair for me to switch channels? Am I required by the laws of Pugland to stay in my channel?

I can totally agree that there needs to be group challenges. I don't have any issue, at all, with that. Even simply opening up the same challenges to the group queue; not sure why that wouldn't be fine. This challenge, for example, would have been fine for group queue.

It comes down to intent in a lot of ways. The solo queue was separated from the group queue as well as private and private premium matches for a specific reason - to cater to a specific group of players and play. To syncdrop is to try and get around those rules - it's similar, in its way, to people suicide farming their 50 wins. I get that it's not how some people enjoy playing but that is inherently the nature of the contest.

You want to ***** about the contest? You bet, all over it. We've got a queue for groups now, why not group queue challenges at the same time? In fact why not give them different rules to get the same rewards? How about 'wins against teams bigger than your own' get you 2x value? We're not talking private matches there's no easy way to stack the deck.

Syncing in the solo queue though or exploiting TS in the solo queue is intentionally exploiting the matchmaker to get out of the inherent limitations built, purposefully, into the environment.

The solo queue was built intentionally to not allow groups in. That's the nature of the queue, that's the purpose of it. If that's not how anyone wants to play... well, other options exist. As to tournaments, well CW isn't going to give lone wolves crap, is it? No owning resources, nothing like that. Should it? If some lone wolf exploits a loophole to take a planet and then keeps it because it's not an official group that can be challenged for his territory, is that exploiting?

There's going to be disparities between who gets what. No question on that. Right now solo players get some challenges with rewards. Anyone can go get them - by playing as solo players in the solo queue. Trying to exploit the system to get those rewards while not playing by the same rules is, well, exploiting.

I'm gonna need to pick and play with a faction when CW comes out if I want to participate in it and its rewards. If I don't join a group I'm not going to get any group benefits, am I. I know that and I'm cool with it. I'm not going to pretend to join a group, leech off them and then never participate - because that would be cheap and feeble.

That goes both ways.

[Triordinant]

LOL, I knew this was going to be a sync-drop weekend so I completely stayed away. I have more empty mechbays, premium time and cbills than I know what to do with anyways.

[DAYLEET]

I trust sync dropping in a solo queue is more about drunktards hell bent on saying dumb things and having fun while playing than trying to win at all cost, otherwise it would be sad. In any case my win rate is ever growing and my kd is recovering from my Vindicator hero fiasco of last week.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

exploiting TS in the solo queue

smh

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

It comes down to intent in a lot of ways. The solo queue was separated from the group queue as well as private and private premium matches for a specific reason - to cater to a specific group of players and play. To syncdrop is to try and get around those rules - it's similar, in its way, to people suicide farming their 50 wins. I get that it's not how some people enjoy playing but that is inherently the nature of the contest.

I don't deny the intentions behind the creation of the solo queue, nor deny that the nature of sync dropping goes against the spirit of solo play, however it cannot be compared to suicide farming, because suicide farming goes against an established rule in the Code of Conduct, whereas sync dropping does not.

That doesn't mean it's right, and I'm not advocating that people should do it. All I'm saying is that there are a multitude of reasons why people would attempt to sync drop, and most of those reasons have little to do with having an advantage, and why sync dropping the solo queue isn't the best means of gaining an advantage anyway, if that is the intent

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

smh

Here's the thing Sandpit.

Groups are getting plenty. CW for example. You can't be a solo merc org and get all the perks in CW, right? Pretty much no matter what.

What you do get is the solo queue, where you play with people just like yourself in the same limitations - like no groups, no TS, no coordination aside from chat. Think of it like Stock Mech Mondays. It's got rules that everyone plays by.

There are plenty of options for groups. To exploit the MM or additional tools outside those options in the solo queue is, well, exploiting.

Plenty of team options in MW: Group queue, private and private premium matches. CW is coming (cross your fingers, right?) and I agree we should have group based events.

The solo queue is there for people to play solo, who don't want to deal with playing in or with or against groups. It's really that simple. Bringing group dynamics into the solo queue is, for lack of a better term, exploiting.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 23 August 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

I don't deny the intentions behind the creation of the solo queue, nor deny that the nature of sync dropping goes against the spirit of solo play, however it cannot be compared to suicide farming, because suicide farming goes against an established rule in the Code of Conduct, whereas sync dropping does not.

That doesn't mean it's right, and I'm not advocating that people should do it. All I'm saying is that there are a multitude of reasons why people would attempt to sync drop, and most of those reasons have little to do with having an advantage, and why sync dropping the solo queue isn't the best means of gaining an advantage anyway, if that is the intent

Sync dropping does give an advantage. A significant one. Even if you're on different teams. I drop in group queue all the time; I play better, more reliably and more efficiently when I'm playing with people I know and trust. When you're on coms with someone you have a *massive* advantage over everyone else. Even if only half of you are, again. You're playing with a whole field of information that nobody else in the match has access to.

I suspect that with the creation of different queues it goes as exploiting. If it doesn't, well you pretty much just blew solo queue away as being, well, solo queue. If sync-dropping in solo queue is legit then why have it? It doesn't serve a purpose at that point. Just merge the queues and be done with it. At that point the literal only purpose it really serves is providing a venue for people who syncdrop to go back to having an advantage without having to deal with other groups - until enough people start syncdropping to balance out I guess? Why not just mix pug/premade and have a premade on each team again?

That's a big fundamental aspect of this. Either the solo queue is there as a solo queue then... well, no syncdropping. Not that it needs witch-hunted nor do I see it as some huge benefit but the solo queue is, well, the solo queue.

If it's not the solo queue, then what purpose does it serve?

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

Here's the thing Sandpit.

Groups are getting plenty. CW for example. You can't be a solo merc org and get all the perks in CW, right? Pretty much no matter what.

What you do get is the solo queue, where you play with people just like yourself in the same limitations - like no groups, no TS, no coordination aside from chat. Think of it like Stock Mech Mondays. It's got rules that everyone plays by.

There are plenty of options for groups. To exploit the MM or additional tools outside those options in the solo queue is, well, exploiting.

Plenty of team options in MW: Group queue, private and private premium matches. CW is coming (cross your fingers, right?) and I agree we should have group based events.

The solo queue is there for people to play solo, who don't want to deal with playing in or with or against groups. It's really that simple. Bringing group dynamics into the solo queue is, for lack of a better term, exploiting.

uhm I have no idea what you're basing that on. Russ has said and implied numerous times that everyone will participate in CW and every match will count towards something.

I'm shaking my head over any kind of implication that using voip from a 3rd party app which is already built into the game by the devs themselves is an exploit. How the hell do you exploit voip when it's built into the game using C3?!?!?!?

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

Absolute mularky! Sync drop doesn't need a 'balance mechanic'. None whatsoever. You think that the sync dropped individuals are hiding good elo among bad creating mismatches?

You know what the real complaint about sync dropping is? Teamwork is OP and I want it banned.

If an accidental sync happens, would you demand them banned from the solo queue? What kind of silliness is this???

You claim it's an advantage? If I drop with 5 other guys and it's 3 on one side, 3 on the other, what's the advantage? We're all the same elo as you. We just are smart enough to use teamwork and we'd be playing in the group queue if PGI didn't always force the matches into the solo queue. So who's the real complaint about here? PGI creating the illusion of a problem which is really just an excuse for why teams lose. You want to say "you can't handle it in the group queue" as a criticism, but God forbid a group of friends get lucky and end up in your match together, you can't handle it. Who's being the bigger hypocrite here? Do we really need to measure urine output on who's unable to hack groups more?

I love the fact we go from Syncdrops are cheating to Sync droppers are bad players. Okay, then you should roflstomp them every time and encourage them in your matches for easy victory. A little logical consistency goes a long way.

The solo queue. I drop alone and end up against my skill peers. If I happen to be in TS with someone else in match on my team, deliberately or not, OR I know how to use the chat function suddenly I'm OP. Sorry, this doesn't hold any credibility.

You are saying if people consciously try to drop into the same game in a queue that's built for solo players only that it isn't a significant advantage (relatively) than those who have not done so?

If it happens accidentally, that's life, though for those who are trying to make it happen? I don't get why people are trying to justify sync dropping. If you're doing it, then great, but it's not the honorable way to play. Some people will play for whatever advantage as long as they win, and that's whatever it is. I don't agree with it but it doesn't mean my way is so sanctified and righteous.

People should own up, say they sync drop because they want to press an advantage and stop trying to justify their actions. Be real and accept who you are and how you play. You're all filthy freebirths anyway.

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

uhm I have no idea what you're basing that on. Russ has said and implied numerous times that everyone will participate in CW and every match will count towards something.

I'm shaking my head over any kind of implication that using voip from a 3rd party app which is already built into the game by the devs themselves is an exploit. How the hell do you exploit voip when it's built into the game using C3?!?!?!?

Sand, please stop trolling. C3 isn't built into the game. There is no ingame VOIP option at the moment.

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

uhm I have no idea what you're basing that on. Russ has said and implied numerous times that everyone will participate in CW and every match will count towards something.

I'm shaking my head over any kind of implication that using voip from a 3rd party app which is already built into the game by the devs themselves is an exploit. How the hell do you exploit voip when it's built into the game using C3?!?!?!?

C3 isn't active in the game.

You're also trying to ignore the difference between solo and group queue - both queues exist, separate, for a reason. For a while they looked at keeping 2-4s in the solo queue - then they found out that nobody wanted to go into group queue, they wanted to split into groups to stay in that sweet sweet pug queue. So it was groups only in one, solo only in the other.

If you're in the solo queue... you're playing solo. I know that's not hard to understand.

So are you saying that individual players playing lone wolf will get to hold territory and have their own private dropships? Or are those... only for groups?

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Aresye, on 23 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Yup. You SHALL use only the in-game text chat to communicate the exact same things you would say verbally.

Something is up with Clan Wolf.

Texting in game (which I do, as a matter of course) limits a warrior to focus and play the game. It's a hinderance and while it's necessary it is such a lesser advantage than being on coms.

In fact, having PTT is a disadvantage than voice activation. It's not just that simple as saying "type what you'd say." Trust me. I won't say it's a fact but I'd ask you to give it a go if you haven't. If you disagree then so be it.

[Sandpit]

Daisu Saikoro, on 23 August 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

Sand, please stop trolling. C3 isn't built into the game. There is no ingame VOIP option at the moment.

you do play this game right?
you might want to know what you're talking about before you start with the name calling

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

C3 isn't active in the game.

see above

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

One last thing before I get back to this really painful challenge. I've been asking in my past 10-15 matches if people have been sync dropping and people have been decent enough to admit to it (and even mention which channel in comstar they were operating out of). Obudalla had a game where he recorded people admitting to sync dropping. I'm just one person, and I have no reason to deceive. If people are admitting in open group they are synching, it's happening.

Please stop arguing it's okay. Honorably, it's not. There's a group queue, private matches, a million options for people to play with each other. Shoot, even just chatting on coms while solo dropping is an option (if it's really about chatting and spending time with each other vs pressing an advantage). If there's no law against it, the heart of the competition is kind of the reference so yes... there's nothing in the rule books for it (AFAIU) but when it comes to the heart, being honorable, or being something that new users have to deal with (and which can potentially drive users away) then it's not something that should be justified. Admitted to, sure... but not justified. Do it to do it, don't make excuses.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

you do play this game right?
you might want to know what you're talking about before you start with the name calling


see above

Functionally, Sand. We all know the overall option exists but it is cumbersome, complex, incomplete. It's also not a part of the game, as if it were there wouldn't be posts by PGI discussing full integration of VOIP into the game (at a future date).

I get it Sand, you get off on being smug and correct but you understand what I am saying and if not I will do a better job of fully expressing my point so there's no misunderstanding.


I do hope the smugness some how fulfills your life, but I have to imagine there are other ways to do so.