876 replies to this topic

[Sam Slade]

Reinstalled OS on my computer... didn't DL MWO because I realized I play robocraft more... even though I've spent a heap of money on this game. Was surprised at first but then I saw the latest 'balance' pass and was glad I saved that space for... well anything.

[Koshirou]

Ulysses Jacobi, on 03 June 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

Philosophically, this game cannot be about the clan invasion unless the clans have teeth.

Not quite. With the current CW setup, it cannot be about the Clan invasion unless CW matches are heavily stacked in the Clans' favor.

The game cannot be...
a.) balanced on a match level
b.) put all factions on an equal footing as far as the ability to attack or defend territory goes and
c.) be "about the Clan invasion".
It can only ever be two of these things. A simple fact (not an opinion - if you subscribe to any common notion of logic, that is) that PGI does not appear to be aware of.

P.S.:

Quote

right now there are a quite a few IS mechs much more efficient than the Timber Wolf,

Could you name, say, a total of three such mechs?

Edited by Koshirou, 04 June 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[ce0815]

Im playing MWO since maybe a week .But what I know about playing Battletech based games is :
It isn`t really possible to compare IS-mechs to Clanmechs by tonnage. That is the reason some games use battlevalues instead
of tonnage . A tonnagelimit plus battlevalues would ballance the number of dropped mechs versus technological level.
Of course it would meen a fare well to the 12vs12 or number of respawns.
Nerfing weapons or boosting up mechs is not that good of a way in my opinion . Honestly IS-mechs compared to the clans are really crappy and that since the tabletopgame.

Btw: Clan Commaders are betting away troops in order to get the honor to command a mission or invasion.

[ce0815]

Ulysses Jacobi, on 03 June 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

The nerfs to the clan mechs I purchased finally stood in the way of my purchasing the Resistance II and as long as the trend remains and continues, I will keep my wallet shut.

Philosophically, this game cannot be about the clan invasion unless the clans have teeth. right now there are a quite a few IS mechs much more efficient than the Timber Wolf, which is the flagship omnimech of the clans, whose technology is supposed to reflect 300 years of innovation, while the IS, plucky heroes that they are, spent blowing themselves into mad max-style darkness.

Agreed but Clans had relatively small, highly advanced Mechforces with fair rebuild capabilitys starting the invasion.
In fact Omnimechs wich mostly are in the game are the frontline units. Garrison units rarely have Omnis in it mostly so called
second line mechs aka refitted IS or Starfed mechs or Clan versions of them.

The point is you will rarely see Omnis if you attack a clan garrisoned planet .

And then one advantage of IS-mechs isn*t in the game close combat . You cant punch or kick your enemy to shreds (thats what M:A:S:C is for :closing in afap to kniferange

what ever

[Ulysses Jacobi]

IMHO, other balancing efforts could be made, firstly, the Clans tended to eschew Artillery and Airstrikes in favor of single combat, i.e. duels. Prohibit Arty and Airstrikes for the clans. Discourage focus fire, by upping loyalty rewards for engaging one enemy 'mech at a time. If 10 v 12 is a problem, then find other ways to balance that are more in line with the theme of the clans.

As far as efficiency goes, the Orion and Thunderbolt are more heat-efficient and solid weapons platforms than the Timber Wolf. A good number of IS mechs have longer ranged and harder-hitting large lasers than the clans have, as well as certian mechs that can hit with LRMs at beyond 1000m range. The I.S. AC20 and AC10 are much better in terms of point damage than the equivalent clan versions, even considering the tiny tweak they got recently.

Anyway, it is not a correct expectation that I will continue to spend money if the company devalues the investments I have already made. I have bought I.S. Mechs before and would again, were it not for this philosophy of nerfbats.

[ce0815]

Right now im simply not feeling like playing a Mechwarrior game its more like wot with Mechs .

[Ace Selin]

Cola, on 24 May 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

I wonder how the army would like it if General Dynamics came out with a new turret system for the M1 Abrams that reduced its firing rate by 10%. From a logical point of view if my engneirs came to me with a new mech that reduced our firing rates, I would fire them and get new engineres. Positive querks, as much as I hate all querks, make more sence then negative ones.

These Clan mechs are OP and need to be balanced to make therm more inline with other mechs, then nerfs are the only possibilty, as the Twolf, Stormcrow were the top of the food chain, clearly much better than any mech in their weight class and below. The Twolf & Crow are still the top mechs in their weight class and that XL engine, nice firepower and dodgy hitboxes are what help.

[OMGUTOOL]

I don't understand why people keep referring to Clan mechs being more powerful then the IS mechs.
since we are following the Battletech time line.
sure when the Clan 1st started the invasion, they were more powerful.
but at later date IS started to produce mechs which were on par or more powerful or efficient then clan mechs...
so all this nerfing is realy counter productive of the game and swaying very far from the Battletech.
some IS mechs are realy OP and lot of them a CRAP.
same for the Clan mechs so please stay true to Battletech.
if you realy decided to sway from true Battletech.
then this game just becomes many many junk mech games out there.
say something hawken????
it just becomes a counter strike with robots..

Edited by OMGUTOOL, 16 June 2015 - 05:20 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Yea they should have stuck to the plan doing a game dated during the succession wars.
As long as everyone can buy every mech and technology there is no way you could balance battletech into a computer game.
Only way is to limit the available, playable technology to a minimum and to a certain scenario.

Also the missconception about IS Mech player customisability is ruining game balance from the start.

[Mr Hunter]

Failure. Look Im soory but the quirk system has done only 2 things.

• make certain IS mechs a tad to good
  
• make clan mechs/ weapons useless.

So thanks get rid of quirks and make a new plan!
My vote is let people choose their own quirks and make it like a module system. give each mech 5 quirk slots, people put the desired quirks in place and boom everyone is happy. want a laser boat? Sure! but no negitive heat gen quirk! in fact more range= more heat! autocannon range= longer cooldowns missile range= more spread etc.

[Black Ivan]

I agree with B8hunter. The quirks were in idea as solution, but they don't work.

For real balance PGI needs a different approch

[Dodger79]

Current Situation:
Certain preferred chassis used by the clans get negative quirks to encourage players to use other chassis.

Suggest a change:
Since this is much less the chassis itself but rather to the, in comparison, inadequate alternatives, good chassis should not be provided with (partly overdone) negative quirks as this absolutely does not change the reasons why these chassis are preferred: the widest variety of weapons combined with significantly higher payloads due to the simultaneous use of FF and ES without the drawback of permanently installed equipment which unnecessarily loses usable free tonnage. Therefore, in order to present real alternatives, all clan-chassis should get the ability to equip ES and FF as desired by the player, reactors remain fixed, DHS should not be hardwired equipment which blocks slots and tonnage anymore. In return, PGI should, in order to prevent excessive overpower of the now more potent Clanmechs , rework the weapons values of all clan weapons to get them closer to their IS-counterparts, which also relates to the damage and, especially, the range. A slightly higher range at a slightly higher damage and slightly higher beam duration should be easier to balances and still provide a sufficiently different look and feel of different tech levels, without producing such balancing disasters like the current C-ERML.

Anticipated impact:
Make better and easier-to-use balancing in still different look and feel, more choice of valid chassis, more variety, expensive bought Mechs reasonably usable.
Current Situation:
Laservomit works on Clanmechs just too good, so now already single chassis were nerfed by negative quirks. And even though I am aware of the necessary balancing, it seems to me that Laservomit is not preferred because it is overpowerdes, but rather because the clans lack (really working) alternatives.

Suggest a change:
Instead of (only) with negative quirks and slightest rather homeopathic adjustments other weapons systems to try (salvo cadence of C-ACs) to dissuade players from builds that simply work, real alternatives should be offered. Possible, quick and easy to implement measures would be:
- The non-Ultra Clan ACs that are already in the game are indeed as a kind of stopgap, because of changing the type of ammunition at the LBX does not work, change the type of volley fire on single shot. Thus there is (finally) a differentiator for U-AC and a real alternative in the ballistic weapons array. Especially since the volley fire of the U-ACs was anyway only implemented to prevent 80dmg pinpoint by double UAC / 20, this risk does not apply to non-Ultra-AC.
- negative quirks would then be only the second step to operate tweaking here but should be aligned similar to ghost heat on the number of actually mountedweapons and do not relate to the mere theoretical possibility of the presence of a weapon type due to the hardpoints available and then only the weapon system which is the "target" of the action (and not as it is now about to ERPPC TBR and SCR also negatively affected, although these were never the problem).

Expected improvement:
More choice of valid weapon systems, more diversity of builds and on the battlefield.

[Lightfoot]

The negative Clan quirks should only apply to the weapons in that omnipod. Otherwise it becomes ridiculous and blocks player builds. It's just too much. Clan weapons are hotter, longer duration, affected by DHS 1.4 at a greater rate than Inner Sphere. That is really enough right there. Add to that the stacking negative Quirks and normal loadouts, not boats by any stretch, become unplayable.

That's not balancing, it's blocking, meanwhile nothing is blocked on Inner Sphere mechs, some of which rival the Mad Cat like the Stalker or the Stormcrow like the Thunderbolt. True they are heavier, but that is handled in CW by dropweight and it's canon that Inner Sphere brings more tonnage and Clan brings better tech.

[Russhuster]

Even though i bought the wave III Pack iam disapointed as can be with the executioner
That was the last Time i d spent a cent to this Game

Executioner is a fairly agile huge moving target without firepower so , the perfect aiming drone for the IS Quirk-trucks

Whilst IS is more OMni mech like than clan the Nerfing is continuing soon the ebon Jaguar will be nerfed to death as well

When you have some really bad mechs and some usable and competetive ones, the way to make the bad ones played isnt to nerf the usable ones next to useless

Iam no NPC, iam not geting payed for moving useless aiming drones for overquirked IS players

[NocturnalBeast]

This game is great fun when you play it as a death match shooter, but it gets frustrating when you try to play it as an organized quasi-military unit.

Edited by Ed Steele, 20 June 2015 - 05:59 PM.

[Thumper3]

Ulysses Jacobi, on 03 June 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

Saddens me, really, because if the designers had wanted a 'balanced' game they could have stuck with 3013 and left the clans out of the picture, rather than making a lie out of the game.

And if they had done that how much grief and tears would there be when people couldn't pilot their prescious Timberwolf? There was no WAY they were making a BT game and excluding the Clans and keeping the lights on.

Ulysses Jacobi, on 05 June 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

IMHO, other balancing efforts could be made, firstly, the Clans tended to eschew Artillery and Airstrikes in favor of single combat, i.e. duels. Prohibit Arty and Airstrikes for the clans. Discourage focus fire, by upping loyalty rewards for engaging one enemy 'mech at a time. If 10 v 12 is a problem, then find other ways to balance that are more in line with the theme of the clans.

These are very good ideas and much better than trying to make Clans be better like they should be.......but the same so that it's "fair".

Ulysses Jacobi, on 05 June 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

As far as efficiency goes, the Orion and Thunderbolt are more heat-efficient and solid weapons platforms than the Timber Wolf.

They are more heat efficient because they can't carry as many weapons. That's like saying a Locust with MGs is a good mech because it's heat efficient. LOL

I doubt many people would chime in and say they would rather pilot an Orion over a Timber, and I certianly don't see swarms of Orion's beating back the Timbers.

B8hunter, on 17 June 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

My vote is let people choose their own quirks and make it like a module system. give each mech 5 quirk slots, people put the desired quirks in place and boom everyone is happy. want a laser boat? Sure! but no negitive heat gen quirk! in fact more range= more heat! autocannon range= longer cooldowns missile range= more spread etc.

This is the best idea AND has been brought up before, LONG ago. It feeds into the feeling that after you grind up a mech to mastery....there's....just.....nothing.

If they implemented a system where quirks were SKILLS (more like the Borderlands line of games with different paths and boosts) it would give the game a lot more depth as well and keep the feeling of achievement going.

Then you can even further customize your mechs. While the open hardpoints have made that customization way out of whack (cramming UAC5s into MG slots LOL), customization IS cannon with many examples of mech warriors taking out a missile rack to add DHS or an energy weapon, etc. Quirks could be a great representation of that sort of thinking.

I think each mech should have a number of Quirk slots depending on what it is, not just give every mech 5, and I also think that while playing with positive quirks having some negatives I don't think nerfing reload on a ballistic matches getting longer range. Range should increase heat, not cooldown....but again, these little details could be hammered out.

Another option would be to just treat them like upgrades, still allow for so many quirk slots (like crit slots), and then say "If you spend $750k you can add a -20% heat generation to energy weapons on this mech"......and just like FF/Endo, it can cost money to take off as well. This would represent the reality

Obviously, that path should ONLY be taken if the cbill economy was fixed, with the current poverty cbill reward system doing that option would be detrimental.

[Eider]

The funny thing about this is people are still trying to justify op clan mechs because 'lore'. Guess what? that got thrown out the window when they decided no 10 vs 12. And being a competition type of game the field has to be even. You dont want to give up anything in exchange for this then yea.. its not going to be balanced. Also.. clans have longer range and more damage over is gear, they may only still fall slightly behind on ballistics if that. Timber and crow are still the god mechs, screw naming 3. Give me 1 and i wager it will fail in at least one catagory compared to timber. Speed/dps/survivability. It wont have it.

[SgtKinCaiD]

Even if the TBR and the SCR have been nerfed, Clan players moved on the HBR and the Ebon with similar loadouts. Not the same Mechs but similar weapons loadouts, see the connection ? Who cares about more weapon heat or longer beam duration when you have better damage and better range ???

[Lugh]

Koshirou, on 04 June 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

Not quite. With the current CW setup, it cannot be about the Clan invasion unless CW matches are heavily stacked in the Clans' favor.

The game cannot be...
a.) balanced on a match level
b.) put all factions on an equal footing as far as the ability to attack or defend territory goes and
c.) be "about the Clan invasion".
It can only ever be two of these things. A simple fact (not an opinion - if you subscribe to any common notion of logic, that is) that PGI does not appear to be aware of.

P.S.:

Could you name, say, a total of three such mechs?

Any IS mech quirked for and boating lasers. Thunderbolt, Hunchback, Stalker, Hell even IS mechs NOT boating lasers are more efficient thanks to lower heat and quicker cycle times for both burn time and re-fire rate.

If you don't realize this, I'd like what you are smoking.
Once you quirk the mech to make it even better at something it is, BY DEFAULT, already better at, it's ridiculous.

[Lugh]

Lightfoot, on 18 June 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

The negative Clan quirks should only apply to the weapons in that omnipod. Otherwise it becomes ridiculous and blocks player builds. It's just too much. Clan weapons are hotter, longer duration, affected by DHS 1.4 at a greater rate than Inner Sphere. That is really enough right there. Add to that the stacking negative Quirks and normal loadouts, not boats by any stretch, become unplayable.

That's not balancing, it's blocking, meanwhile nothing is blocked on Inner Sphere mechs, some of which rival the Mad Cat like the Stalker or the Stormcrow like the Thunderbolt. True they are heavier, but that is handled in CW by dropweight and it's canon that Inner Sphere brings more tonnage and Clan brings better tech.

Only currently the clan tech is not better by any stretch EXCEPT the XL engine quirk where one side torso doesn't do it. Other than that, the IS weapons are better at anything less than 800m. And most of the maps provide more than enough cover so that you see a glimpse at 1km and then nothing until 700m or less. So Extra range is easily nullified.