362 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

TexAss, on 26 September 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Players should be able to maximise their tons (be it 200 or 240) or otherwise, if you want to bring 4 spideys, you are 100 tons too light, and thus can get yout team into a ton-disadvantage.

if, however, you can maximise - say - your 200 tons, you can bring 4 spideys and 2 cicadas.

Its important to field nearly equal amount of tons as the enemy, not equal amount of mechs to get a balanced match.

If an elite light mech player thinks he's better off to the team in 4 light mechs that don't reach near the 240 ton limit, why is this a bad thing? Its the same consideration an elite assault only player will have when he can only take 2 of their Daishi for example. Its give and take, and its a good thing, brings something unique to MWO we haven't seen in any other mechwarrior.

[DEMAX51]

TexAss, on 26 September 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Its important to field nearly equal amount of tons as the enemy, not equal amount of mechs to get a balanced match.

That is just entirely incorrect. You want proof? Go run a private match with 1 Atlas against 2 Locusts. 100 tons vs. 40 tons. The locusts will win every single time if they're piloted with anything even remotely approaching a decent level of competence.

Numbers matter WAY more than tonnage.

Edited by DEMAX51, 26 September 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Metus regem]

DEMAX51, on 26 September 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

That is just entirely incorrect. You want proof? Go run a private match with 1 Atlas against 2 Locusts. 100 tons vs. 40 tons. The locusts will win every single time if they're piloted with anything even remotely approaching a decent level of competence.

Numbers matter WAY more than tonnage.

"Quantity has it's own kind of Quality..."
--Joseph Stalin

[Mechteric]

DEMAX51, on 26 September 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

That is just entirely incorrect. You want proof? Go run a private match with 1 Atlas against 2 Locusts. 100 tons vs. 40 tons. The locusts will win every single time if they're piloted with anything even remotely approaching a decent level of competence.

Numbers matter WAY more than tonnage.

Well, I wouldn't say every time, if the Atlas is packing an AC20 the locust won't stand long to that.

Plus why is the Atlas alone?

And, how can the same player play 2 locusts at the same time?

[TexAce]

DEMAX51, on 26 September 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

That is just entirely incorrect. You want proof? Go run a private match with 1 Atlas against 2 Locusts. 100 tons vs. 40 tons. The locusts will win every single time if they're piloted with anything even remotely approaching a decent level of competence.

Numbers matter WAY more than tonnage.

Remember, that guy with the 12 locusts won't field them all at once, he has to respawn in them, so you only see ONE of them at the same time in a match.

So to use your example: An assault that has to fight a locust, and AFTERWARDS again a locust, has a good chance to win that.

[Bhodi Li773]

I think 1/1/1/1 will be the most feasible but the interesting part is the dropship itself. In MW universe dropships have a limited repair/reload ability.With this in mind,? do you select what your dropship brings with you? Each dropship will be limited to one of each type light/ medium/heavy/assault.so what if you have extra tonnage left over? If you bring 240 tons of mechs you could bring 10 tons of supplies.Do you bring replacement armor,heatsinks,ballistics,energy weps or ammo? This depends on your gameplay .I've seen plenty of mechs running around with no ammo still alive and no other weapons on board.Mechs fall into 4 types Ballistics,Missile,Energy and Hybrid.These are all self explanatory by their names. The first 2 have a limited ammo capacity then they become meat shields very quickly( Great for short matches but run dry fast in hectic fights or longer battles).Many say LRM/ballistic takes no skill but u still need to know when to shoot and aim for good results.Being able to alpha60 damage means nothing if u cant pilot and hit a target. Energy runs high heat but unlimited ammo.(Nova is a prime example).Heat management is a skill.Many say Nova is a bad build but but if u chainfire 4 groups of 3 ERMLsor 3 groups of4ERML you be surprised what can be done.Great for longer battles with no worries of running dry on ammo, but u still need to be able to pilot and shoot at the same time.I've seen pilots who couldnt hit something right in front of them( most painful/frustrating moments in gameplay)Then we have the Hybrid a mixed loadout of weapons that makes your mech an all around fighter.A mix of the first three that makes overheating less problematic and more flexible depending on where you drop(TerravsAlpine) but less dps overall.This requires more shooting /piloting skills/and heat management too if you try to alpha with them.You also need a better situational awareness of which weapons are best used in the middle of a firefight.

Now your Dropship Supply Loadout becomes a major issue which would easily affect a battle.You brought lots of ammo for your Dire"Boom"Wolf.Thats great but if someone destroys your AC your extra ammo is useless.Brought extra heat sinks.great ,if u land on Terra but what if u get Alpine?lots of LRM ammo.What if u get mining collective or the forthcoming jungle map?No Locks means your dummy firing lrms.Along with the resupply issue is the rearming.If your rearming your mech how long will it take?Are you better to stay in the fight with a couple small or medium lasers or ammo up and hope your team can hold the line while your in the MechBay? This all makes strategy a big part of the game if any of this is implemented.

[Bhodi Li773]

A big question is this.Do we get to pick which mech deploys of the four or is it random?Which means no 12 light mechs swarming/legging everything in sight.

[TLBFestus]

I like the idea of varied tonnage limits based on planet or scenario.

Obviously the dropship will only carry 4 mechs per player, which typically means 4 rounds (or 3 respawns) or less per match, so there is no way you will run into the 12 ECM spider option for tonnage.

Sure the other tema might ALL decide to drop in Spiders, but any opponent with a good mix of mechs can easily defeat that. Or, conversely, if they are poorly prepared, ....they get what they deserve.

Each side will have to deal with the unknown configuration of the other side, the only knowledge being that they will know it's maximum tonnage. Do you drop for sheer firepower? Do you drop for speed? Do you drop for balance?

I honestly don't know how they code this stuff, but it seems elegant and with lots of variables to make the matches interesting. As well, I would assume less involvement of the match-maker because the fights will be about CW and there should be greater variance in that.

Perhaps, based on the relative ELO's of the two teams the MM allows for a few extra tons for the side with the lower ELO or for the attacker over the defender. Of course, I don't know that this would be easy to implement or what added tonnage would be appropriate, but that's what patches are for....trying to tweak it just right.

Edited by TLBFestus, 26 September 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[TexAce]

TLBFestus, on 26 September 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

I like the idea of varied tonnage limits based on planet or scenario.

Obviously the dropship will only carry 4 mechs per player, which typically means 4 rounds (or 3 respawns) or less per match, so there is no way you will run into the 12 ECM spider option for tonnage.

Sure the other tema might ALL decide to drop in Spiders, but any opponent with a good mix of mechs can easily defeat that. Or, conversely, if they are poorly prepared, ....they get what they deserve.

Each side will have to deal with the unknown configuration of the other side, the only knowledge being that they will know it's maximum tonnage. Do you drop for sheer firepower? Do you drop for speed? Do you drop for balance?

I honestly don't know how they code this stuff, but it seems elegant and with lots of variables to make the matches interesting. As well, I would assume less involvement of the match-maker because the fights will be about CW and there should be greater variance in that.

Perhaps, based on the relative ELO's of the two teams the MM allows for a few extra tons for the side with the lower ELO or for the attacker over the defender. Of course, I don't know that this would be easy to implement or what added tonnage would be appropriate, but that's what patches are for....trying to tweak it just right.

Since its attack-defense-based, the defending team surely will have some turrets in the base. Later when Phase 2 is deployed and everything works, the difference in ELO could be balanced by removing or adding turrets to the defending base. Alternatevily, it could also be balanced by repair bots, ammo bots or airstrikes for the weaker team.

Edited by TexAss, 26 September 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

CapperDeluxe, on 26 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

If an elite light mech player thinks he's better off to the team in 4 light mechs that don't reach near the 240 ton limit, why is this a bad thing? Its the same consideration an elite assault only player will have when he can only take 2 of their Daishi for example. Its give and take, and its a good thing, brings something unique to MWO we haven't seen in any other mechwarrior.

I can do a lot of damage in a spider with its broken hit boxes, now imagine teams of 12 ECM spiders. You could literally bring down any mech/cripple them FAST taking minimal damage.

Edited by shad0w4life, 26 September 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Brody319]

shad0w4life, on 26 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I can do a lot of damage in a spider with its broken hit boxes, now imagine teams of 12 ECM spiders. You could literally bring down any mech/cripple them FAST taking minimal damage.

Even better if your team's first mechs are missile boats

[Ozric]

Russ Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

I admit I read very little of the entire thread - too little time in a day.

I will say this - in a perfect world we would have our groups limited to 4, 8 and 12 in CW and make each lance of a light, medium, heavy and Assault pilot with their drop ships full of those types of mechs - that way our MM can very easily put together matches.

But we know the players wouldn't like this concession they would prefer to have their groups of 5,6,7,9,10....

When you have group sizes like this it gets very difficult on the MM as seen in the public Group Queue - one group of 10 might not even fit with some of the groups of 2 based on all the heavy or assault slots being taken and it goes from there.

1 of each weight class gets past this and ensures variety.

However internally we are now discussing tonnage limits for CW and I am pushing this notion pretty strongly. It will end up providing more flexibility to players who want to perhaps take nothing but their Jenner's out for instance. But will become more restricting as you go higher, for instance nobody is going to take 4 Direwolf's - in fact if they take 2 their last two mechs are going to be pretty dang light.

But Tonnage restrictions does allow us to change it per planet if we desire.

I know players would like to push the tonnage limit up as high as possible so they can take as many of their favorite heavy mech as possible but I currently like the number of 240 tons.

Thanks for the response. Tonnage does make for a much more interesting factor in CW campaigns than 1/1/1/1, and as many have said 240 may just be the magic number.

But a 4 mech rule (no more, no less) is a pretty important balancing factor too, keeps decks sensible, as does a no duplicate variants rule (or even no duplicate chassis? going this far is a little unfair to Clan players with limited mechbays, maybe an extra rule for only one Timber wolf?)

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 25 September 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

While I agree with you re: tonnage limits (and have always wanted to have that setup), I suspect the reasoning is this:

Resulting 12 man teams are inherently balanced in terms of weight classes. If every player brings one mech of each, then each team has 12/12/12/12, always.

Of course, the downside is that this continues the marginalization of mechs on the lower end of the weight scale, and removes the encouragement to run Mediums, as with a 200t limit, you could run 4x40t mechs. In a 200t/4mech max cap, mediums would become much more plentiful, which IMHO would be fantastic for the game.

yep, but you pointed out the inherent 12 man MM 3x4 issue.

[EvilCow]

Assuming one single mech in the middle of each class (rounding to lower ):

90 + 65 + 45 + 30 = 230

May be that on important planet the limit could be increased. What about giving planets a class?

For example:
capital = 280
advanced industrial = 250
industrial = 230
agriculture = 210

Everybody happy.

Edited by EvilCow, 26 September 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Budor]

Only if you must bring 4 mechs. Noone needs 2x Atlas or 2x Dire noobs losing the game for them.

[Bishop Steiner]

EvilCow, on 26 September 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Assuming one single mech in the middle of each class (rounding to lower ):

90 + 65 + 45 + 30 = 230

May be that on important planet the limit could be increased. What about giving planets a class?

For example:
capital = 280
advanced industrial = 250
industrial = 230
agriculture = 210

Everybody happy.

this is the MWO Forums.

PGI could mail everyone gold nuggets for christmas, and people would still complain.

[Mechteric]

Budor, on 26 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Only if you must bring 4 mechs. Noone needs 2x Atlas or 2x Dire noobs losing the game for them.

That's just dumb, because they would just pack 2 Atlas with 2 locust. Same result. I think you then need to blame the pilot not the designers of the game.

[elismallz]

Could tonnage limits replace the 10v12 solution to the "Clan OP" discussion? Rather than 10v12 with slightly stronger clans, maybe clan drops would have 185 tons vs IS getting 200. This would somewhat match lore in that clans would bid low for honor.

Edited by elismallz, 26 September 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Budor]

CapperDeluxe, on 26 September 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

That's just dumb, because they would just pack 2 Atlas with 2 locust. Same result. I think you then need to blame the pilot not the designers of the game.

I was refering to a 200t limit. 1/1/1/1 is simply the better option.

[EvilCow]

elismallz, on 26 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Could tonnage limits replace the 10v12 solution to the "Clan OP" discussion? Rather than 10v12 with slightly stronger clans, maybe clan drops would have 185 tons vs IS getting 200. This would somewhat match lore in that clans would bid low for honor.

Real life kind of "clanners" would QQ crying for the unfair conditions but I like the idea.