724 replies to this topic

[Assiah]

hybrid black, on 26 October 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Go get a t10 tank in world of tanks and then come talk to me about a grind....
Also when you do and see its 100 times worse then mwo and there is a huge player base then we can talk till then go away

That is a false equivalence if I ever saw one. WoT isn't popular because its a very well made game, in fact most people I speak to who play it say quite the opposite, I personally tried it and quit because it was very dry in game play and had a horrid grind. It is popular because it will run on just about any computer, which makes it very popular in countries where having a high end gaming PC is almost unheard of for your average citizen (Russia and Brazil come to mind). MWO does not have this going for it, it runs on the cryengine and while it does not require a super beefy pc, it wont run on a cheap $300 laptop made for office work while WoT will.

So lets stop trying to compare MWO to an objectively worse game that is only popular due to accessibility.

[Scratx]

hybrid black, on 26 October 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Go get a t10 tank in world of tanks and then come talk to me about a grind....
Also when you do and see its 100 times worse then mwo and there is a huge player base then we can talk till then go away

I have a t-54. I could've had a t-62 by now... had I not taken a slight detour to go for the IS-3. And you know what?

Fully agreed. It's a bloody grind, and I can't even do it on the t-54 because that mech is just unprofitable to run. I have to go to the t-34-85 for my best return on time spent. t-44 also works but it's more expensive to run.

So, yes, WoT makes MWO's grind look tame.

Unfortunately that doesn't mean MWO's grind is good, either. It looked better back in the days where there were no XL engines and definitely no clan mechs all geared with XL. These days, most mechs seem to be geared with them. :/

[Assiah]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

And seriously, so many of you are just doing it wrong.

Ive never spent a dime, ive mastered locusts, banshees, shadowhawks, jagers, hunchies, and ravens. I only have 6 mech bays (2 I got from challenges) im too lazy to multi account so I just sell mechs and rotate them (they keep their skills) and buy them back when I want them.

Granted I have almost unlimited time due to my profession to play video games, but I still probably only play MWO 20 hours or so a week, if that. A few hours during the week, couple hours on saturday, couple hours on sunday.

Theres literally nothing to spend money on, and the only reason id do that is to support PGI and its direction, if it ever gets back on track. But for ingame digital content that I can get for free with me just enjoying the product? No way. Theres no incentive for me, to ever spend any money.

The 'end game content' is almost pointless, mastering and basic arent that different, and more mech bays would be nice but they give those away about once every two months. I just missed a few challenges.

Now camo ive thought about spending money on, then I realized it was several dollars if not more than 10 for some of the patterns and colors I wanted. So thats moronic...ill never spend money on that simply because its not worth it. Its more than some mechs.

But yeah, if youre complaining about the rate at which you get Free Cake...youre kind of an *******.

And seriously I dont get why people have to have everything NOW.

The game will still be here next fall. If you cant put in 100 hours over the next 365 days....and get literally whatever you want...then I dont know what to tell you.

Have some ******* patience. Enjoy the game. Hold your collection until quirks, find something you want to use, sell everything else, and bloody well play it till the wheels fall off, then switch to another chassis.

The level of entitlement around here is just astounding. First world problems *smh*

I originally wasn't going to respond to this post, as its really not an argument but rather a long winded rant. However, there is one thing he mentioned that I'd like to highlight, I'll quote it again.

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

The game will still be here next fall. If you cant put in 100 hours over the next 365 days....and get literally whatever you want...then I dont know what to tell you.

Have some ******* patience. Enjoy the game. Hold your collection until quirks, find something you want to use, sell everything else, and bloody well play it till the wheels fall off, then switch to another chassis.

Take a good critical look at that statement. Krafty is saying two things here, the first is to suck it up and deal with it (which really isn't an argument), the second is that if you are not happy with whats currently going on you should take a break, and he is right, MWO being a free to play means you can leave and come back whenever you want. But that is the current problem with MWO isn't it, how many of us take month long breaks waiting for a time for MWO to become good? What happens when a sizable chunk of the pop decides that they are going to play something else for a while? What does that do to the time it takes to search for a match? What does that do for PGI, who as a business, want to have players playing and spending money on their product? What effect does that have on potential new players who are friends with those taking a break?

I'm not going to answer those questions for you, but they are something you should consider if you love this franchise and want to see this iteration succeed.

[KraftySOT]

More "learn to enjoy yourself" than "suck it up" but yeah you got what I was saying in my rant, in essence.

[Mr Beefy]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

And seriously, so many of you are just doing it wrong.

Ive never spent a dime, ive mastered locusts, banshees, shadowhawks, jagers, hunchies, and ravens. I only have 6 mech bays (2 I got from challenges) im too lazy to multi account so I just sell mechs and rotate them (they keep their skills) and buy them back when I want them.

Granted I have almost unlimited time due to my profession to play video games, but I still probably only play MWO 20 hours or so a week, if that. A few hours during the week, couple hours on saturday, couple hours on sunday.

Theres literally nothing to spend money on, and the only reason id do that is to support PGI and its direction, if it ever gets back on track. But for ingame digital content that I can get for free with me just enjoying the product? No way. Theres no incentive for me, to ever spend any money.

The 'end game content' is almost pointless, mastering and basic arent that different, and more mech bays would be nice but they give those away about once every two months. I just missed a few challenges.

Now camo ive thought about spending money on, then I realized it was several dollars if not more than 10 for some of the patterns and colors I wanted. So thats moronic...ill never spend money on that simply because its not worth it. Its more than some mechs.

But yeah, if youre complaining about the rate at which you get Free Cake...youre kind of an *******.

And seriously I dont get why people have to have everything NOW.

The game will still be here next fall. If you cant put in 100 hours over the next 365 days....and get literally whatever you want...then I dont know what to tell you.

Have some ******* patience. Enjoy the game. Hold your collection until quirks, find something you want to use, sell everything else, and bloody well play it till the wheels fall off, then switch to another chassis.

The level of entitlement around here is just astounding. First world problems *smh*

Sounds like the only level of entitlement around is yours. Victor has already given the numbers on what kinda cost it will take to get just the modules for all his mechs. The true numbers don't lie.... and everything you said regarding your vast amount of time you can put into this game, is laughable given what you are saying is in your bays vs. time spent.

If you consider spending $50 plus dollars in a game that really hasn't hit the mark for a "AAA" title yet, has no PVE in it yet, let alone CW, and having to grind out 60-80+ hours to obtain 3 mechs in a given chassis, and that is only for ones that are around the 8 million mark, how about the 15-17 million heavies and assaults, and many of us are simply trying to point out with real numbers, real examples of how this very painful grind takes its tole on motivating exploiters, bad team play, toxic in game and on the forums chat.... YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE. If you are happy with the earnings.... Please move along.... I simply ask you to not because we are loosing the argument because you types are not posting valid replies, nor have you made any valid points to this argument at all. You keep spitting out, "Hey look at me, I am doing fine... whats your problem noob, your not doing it right! "

Players that spit this out over and over are not helping this player base..... You are holding it back from what it could become. For what reasons again?? Oh that's right, you are happy, so everyone should be fine, because if they start doing it just like you.... we will be happy too? NOPE, SORRY NOT A CHANCE, BOTTOM LINE 30-50% increase in pay for all, because we feel like your awesomeness in game play style deserves more too, so that way you and others won't be so worried with C-bill lust, you all might just start to change you game play style away from what PGI has let you exploit this month for c-bills, killing all hopes of true role ware fare, and true team play.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 26 October 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[Assiah]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

More "learn to enjoy yourself" than "suck it up" but yeah you got what I was saying in my rant, in essence.

A rose by any other name Krafty...

But my question for you is, lets say hypothetically they doubled earnings across the board, how does that ruin game play for you?

[FrupertApricot]

Less shs mechs for him to lolsplat?

[Assiah]

I'm serious, he obviously opposes the idea that rewards need to be increased, and I'm curious as to why. Just because he started off ranting and insulting doesn't mean we can't drive the conversation back to a reasonable discussion.

[Mr Beefy]

Assiah, on 26 October 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

A rose by any other name Krafty...

But my question for you is, lets say hypothetically they doubled earnings across the board, how does that ruin game play for you?

I think I can safely say if we see an answer to your, and all of our million dollar question it will go something like this....

" I am happy with what I get... L2P, you are not doing it right, and btw, this wouldn't be a problem if IGP didn't push third person in.... " Sound about right?

[CMetz]

I see both ends of this argument, honestly. There is a very delicate balance that needs to be maintained. None of us will be happy if cbill earnings jump to the point where disco farming is a legitimate bankroll tactic. Personally, my earnings have skyrocketed after the change. There most certainly are rewards for fulfilling roles in the current system. I do not use tag or narc. I do use a lot of frankenbuilds that are viable at any range but are masters of nothing. I also play primarily in the group queue with members of my unit. We have played together often and we support each other quite well. Many of my guys have seen 80k-100k bumps in earnings during wins and 20k-50k in losses. Many of the reward triggers enable you to earn while in position to tank for a teammate, or focus fire on a single target. These are great behaviors and they deserve to be rewarded. The issue I see is that many of these behaviors will not be present in new players. The grind needs to be lightened on them for sure. Player retention needs to come from somewhere. PGI has admittedly not put together the best NPE, so encouragement needs to come from somewhere. Realistically it costs about 3.5 million to buy and completely kit out a light, 6.5-7 million to do the same with a medium, 9 million with a heavy, and 11-12 million with the average assault (Note: I acknowledge that engines cost quite a bit, but it is hard to lump them in with any particular mech purchase since they can be used across multiple mechs). My question for discussion is this: How long do you think it should take to accomplish each of those goals. Realize that if it becomes too easy on experienced players than player retention on that end will suffer. If it is too hard on new pilots than you lose player retention there. To me, it doesn't seem out of line to require 8-10 matches to buy a light, 16-20 for a medium, 24-30 for a heavy and 32-40 for an assault. Premium content such as hero mechs and premium time augment this,of course. Under these assumptions you're looking at 2 hrs of play time for a light, 4 for a medium, 6 for a heavy, and 8 for an assault. Is this absurd? I really don't think so with all the "pay to accelerate" options available. Throw in cbill mech sales that are occurring lately and the grind is further reduced. Perhaps an increase to the cadet bonus and some slight tweaking of the rewards system are in order. In all fairness, however, I feel as though the current system is much more rewarding for role players than the old one was, and this was much needed. Discuss...

[KraftySOT]

Mr Beefy, on 26 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Sounds like the only level of entitlement around is yours. Victor has already given the numbers on what kinda cost it will take to get just the modules for all his mechs. The true numbers don't lie.... and everything you said regarding your vast amount of time you can put into this game, is laughable given what you are saying is in your bays vs. time spent.

If you consider spending $50 plus dollars in a game that really hasn't hit the mark for a "AAA" title yet, has no PVE in it yet, let alone CW, and having to grind out 60-80+ hours to obtain 3 mechs in a given chassis, and that is only for ones that are around the 8 million mark, how about the 15-17 million heavies and assaults, and many of us are simply trying to point out with real numbers, real examples of how this very painful grind takes its tole on motivating exploiters, bad team play, toxic in game and on the forums chat.... YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE. If you are happy with the earnings.... Please move along.... I simply ask you to not because we are loosing the argument because you types are not posting valid replies, nor have you made any valid points to this argument at all. You keep spitting out, "Hey look at me, I am doing fine... whats your problem noob, your not doing it right! "

Players that spit this out over and over are not helping this player base..... You are holding it back from what it could become. For what reasons again?? Oh that's right, you are happy, so everyone should be fine, because if they start doing it just like you.... we will be happy too? NOPE, SORRY NOT A CHANCE, BOTTOM LINE 30-50% increase in pay for all, because we feel like your awesomeness in game play style deserves more too, so that way you and others won't be so worried with C-bill lust, you all might just start to change you game play style away from what PGI has let you exploit this month for c-bills, killing all hopes of true role ware fare, and true team play.

"BOTTOM LINE I WANT MORE CBILLS FOR FREE!"

Thats what your post sums up to.

And for your second little argument to be true, that players saying things in the forums effect the outcome of the game, PGI would have to actually listen to what anyone has to say about their Cbill earnings, and not pay attention to the hoard of data theyve collected and their own internal flow charts.

Face it. This is how much they want you to make per hour for your skill level. They dont want you making 30% more, and the game wont die because you didnt get your pacifier.

[Mr Beefy]

CMetz, on 26 October 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

I see both ends of this argument, honestly. There is a very delicate balance that needs to be maintained. None of us will be happy if cbill earnings jump to the point where disco farming is a legitimate bankroll tactic. Personally, my earnings have skyrocketed after the change. There most certainly are rewards for fulfilling roles in the current system. I do not use tag or narc. I do use a lot of frankenbuilds that are viable at any range but are masters of nothing. I also play primarily in the group queue with members of my unit. We have played together often and we support each other quite well. Many of my guys have seen 80k-100k bumps in earnings during wins and 20k-50k in losses. Many of the reward triggers enable you to earn while in position to tank for a teammate, or focus fire on a single target. These are great behaviors and they deserve to be rewarded. The issue I see is that many of these behaviors will not be present in new players. The grind needs to be lightened on them for sure. Player retention needs to come from somewhere. PGI has admittedly not put together the best NPE, so encouragement needs to come from somewhere. Realistically it costs about 3.5 million to buy and completely kit out a light, 6.5-7 million to do the same with a medium, 9 million with a heavy, and 11-12 million with the average assault (Note: I acknowledge that engines cost quite a bit, but it is hard to lump them in with any particular mech purchase since they can be used across multiple mechs). My question for discussion is this: How long do you think it should take to accomplish each of those goals. Realize that if it becomes too easy on experienced players than player retention on that end will suffer. If it is too hard on new pilots than you lose player retention there. To me, it doesn't seem out of line to require 8-10 matches to buy a light, 16-20 for a medium, 24-30 for a heavy and 32-40 for an assault. Premium content such as hero mechs and premium time augment this,of course. Under these assumptions you're looking at 2 hrs of play time for a light, 4 for a medium, 6 for a heavy, and 8 for an assault. Is this absurd? I really don't think so with all the "pay to accelerate" options available. Throw in cbill mech sales that are occurring lately and the grind is further reduced. Perhaps an increase to the cadet bonus and some slight tweaking of the rewards system are in order. In all fairness, however, I feel as though the current system is much more rewarding for role players than the old one was, and this was much needed. Discuss...

NO one is claiming here that it will 100% solve the droppers that farm C-bills..... However, for the players that truly want to play this game, and as a team player, It will motivate more players to stay in and earn, hell maybe even not mind watching matches to see what others are building and doing. What I am claiming, and backed by what I have seen in the hundreds if not thousands of games I have dropped, It will cure about 80% of the farming/exploiters we have right now. You do not stop this play style by making a drought for C-bills, it makes it even worse! Which is why in 80% of the games I have played.... it is a serious issue, and it shows even more when PGI runs challenges even more so.

It may not be the only way to stop this play style but is the least time consuming on PGI's end, is to do the increase of 30-50%, give it a week, a month, let it soak in with the player base, and it will correct these issues and toxic game play we have now in so many matches played. PGI will bank in the long run, if not the short run for making this change. LOVE=CASH for them, bottom line!

[KraftySOT]

Assiah, on 26 October 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

I'm serious, he obviously opposes the idea that rewards need to be increased, and I'm curious as to why. Just because he started off ranting and insulting doesn't mean we can't drive the conversation back to a reasonable discussion.

I oppose that they NEED to be increased.

Id LIKE them increased just like the rest of you. The only thing better than free cake, is extra free cake.

But I stop myself, get critical of myself, check my own opinion and thought process, and realize...damn im really just asking for more free cake. I dont NEED more free cake, im enjoying the game now. Ive been playing about a year, ive mastered 6 chassis, im going to master 6 more next year. I dont care about Clans, though I bought the DoomCrow and Dire for the lulz, and sold them off once the cheese factor wore off. I pay attention to the sales and I do the challenges.

I dont spend any money nor do I feel compelled to. The only reason id do it is like when I dropped 45 dollars on the kickstarter. To support the vision and franchise. For actual digital content? No...thats insanely stupid.

Edited by KraftySOT, 26 October 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[Mothykins]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

"BOTTOM LINE I WANT MORE CBILLS FOR FREE!"

Thats what your post sums up to.

And for your second little argument to be true, that players saying things in the forums effect the outcome of the game, PGI would have to actually listen to what anyone has to say about their Cbill earnings, and not pay attention to the hoard of data theyve collected and their own internal flow charts.

Face it. This is how much they want you to make per hour for your skill level. They dont want you making 30% more, and the game wont die because you didnt get your pacifier.

Hey, Krafty, remember that thing I said about taking jabs at people and belittling them to try and get a rise so you can further discredit them and their argument?

It doesn't make you right, it just makes you an *******. Don't do it. think about your post, go "man, is this the sort of thing an ******* would say?" and if it is, stop, delete, and try again.


That said, the new System can be really rewarding even on losses (120K loss anyone? Might be a bug though.) but can also just dump on you, especially in PUGs. After some reflection, the major issue might not be earnings, but that there's no 'Entry level' to this game, not really. Unlike most MMOs, there's no linear progression, and unlike, say, TF2, stock equipment isn't really viable. This needs to be addressed, either via a stock mode, or some other way.

[KraftySOT]

And you may say, im a part of the problem because im saying the status quo is acceptable.

Yet, the actual problem is that bad games, turned a generation of gamers into pirates, and Free 2 Play is the only way they can get people to play their games and occasionally pay for them. We were going to play your game, for free, anyways. So you have one choice as a developer. Work that into your product. Make it multiplayer and have a community, so piracy is limited, and make it free so pirating is non existant and theres a large community for the whales to swim in.

There is no where else to go but huge crowd sources projects that im still not convinced will work (star citizen will crash and burn) Were here. Deal with it.

You cant change the tide coming in or going out. All you can do is take advantage of it.

Stop whining and get a casting net.

[Mr Beefy]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

"BOTTOM LINE I WANT MORE CBILLS FOR FREE!"

Thats what your post sums up to.

And for your second little argument to be true, that players saying things in the forums effect the outcome of the game, PGI would have to actually listen to what anyone has to say about their Cbill earnings, and not pay attention to the hoard of data theyve collected and their own internal flow charts.

Face it. This is how much they want you to make per hour for your skill level. They dont want you making 30% more, and the game wont die because you didnt get your pacifier.

Well this is a shocker for a reply.....

Here you have told us you have not spent a dime.... right? OH the Irony! I have spent many dimes on this game, many have spent many more dimes than I. Some how I think we are not the ones that want things or expect things for free in this game. We do want to see it grow, and for PGI to have the means to make this game into something great for this IP.

If playing 80+ hours for a medium/ heavy 3 of one chassis is free.... you have a very twisted view of the word.

Can you just answer the million dollar question that was asked of you please? That would be great, and Thank you.

[KraftySOT]

Cavale, on 26 October 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Hey, Krafty, remember that thing I said about taking jabs at people and belittling them to try and get a rise so you can further discredit them and their argument?

It doesn't make you right, it just makes you an *******. Don't do it. think about your post, go "man, is this the sort of thing an ******* would say?" and if it is, stop, delete, and try again.


That said, the new System can be really rewarding even on losses (120K loss anyone? Might be a bug though.) but can also just dump on you, especially in PUGs. After some reflection, the major issue might not be earnings, but that there's no 'Entry level' to this game, not really. Unlike most MMOs, there's no linear progression, and unlike, say, TF2, stock equipment isn't really viable. This needs to be addressed, either via a stock mode, or some other way.

New player experience is a completely different ballgame and youll find no argument from me that its total crap.

But you gotta get the game breathing life again before you start worrying about what new players think. Youre still losing old players. You want to win them back, not just replace them with noobs that wont stick around.

Supposedly theyll work on that someday. But earnings arent really a barrier for new players. The barrier is that they dont know 80% of the mechs available for purchase with their first 10-12 million cbills, are crap and should be avoided.

[KraftySOT]

Mr Beefy, on 26 October 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well this is a shocker for a reply.....

Here you have told us you have not spent a dime.... right? OH the Irony! I have spent many dimes on this game, many have spent many more dimes than I. Some how I think we are not the ones that want things or expect things for free in this game. We do want to see it grow, and for PGI to have the means to make this game into something great for this IP.

If playing 80+ hours for a medium/ heavy 3 of one chassis is free.... you have a very twisted view of the word.

Can you just answer the million dollar question that was asked of you please? That would be great, and Thank you.

Yeah which is pretty messed up that im spending nothing, and making plenty of cbills to enjoy the game, and youre dropping cash and arent satisfied.

How does that happen?

Were both using the same system, and I doubt were that far from each other in skill. Im no uber pilot, but im not bad. I doubt youre bad.

And yes, if im not spending any money, its free. Time invested into enjoyment, is most certainly free. Thats why they call it Free Time. If youre in a life situation where your free time is limited and you cant play enough to earn what you want. Scientifically speaking...your "bottleneck" is time. Not cbills.

While you could, in theory, solve your problem by upping cbill earnings for everyone, you also made my cbill earnings that much higher, as well as everyone else who has 80 hours a week to lulz away watching the grass grow if they so choose.

Whats easier, making cbills work for everyone, including you, the way you want, or you, personally, getting more free time?

It seems to me, PGI is happy with the way cbills are dolled out. They WANT it to take 50-80 hours to get the cbills to buy 3 cataphracts, another 20 to buy the modules and upgrades, and 20 hours of playing them to get the XP to master them, OR you buy the expensive uberpack that short cuts it.

Thats not going to change. You can totally find more free time however.

[Mr Beefy]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

And you may say, im a part of the problem because im saying the status quo is acceptable.

Yet, the actual problem is that bad games, turned a generation of gamers into pirates, and Free 2 Play is the only way they can get people to play their games and occasionally pay for them. We were going to play your game, for free, anyways. So you have one choice as a developer. Work that into your product. Make it multiplayer and have a community, so piracy is limited, and make it free so pirating is non existant and theres a large community for the whales to swim in.

There is no where else to go but huge crowd sources projects that im still not convinced will work (star citizen will crash and burn) Were here. Deal with it.

You cant change the tide coming in or going out. All you can do is take advantage of it.

Stop whining and get a casting net.

So you believe no change can happen, its to big of a task to try to relay valid concerns to PGI regarding what some believe motivates bad play style in game, Toxic play style that is created by the very real painful grind of this game, and base this on people stealing games in the past for the move to this new f2P system we have? Right.....

You then put the nail in the coffin by saying, "hey, if you can't beat the douche bags that play toxic and farm, exploit, lets join them and take advantage of it, until the game we all love implodes on us, and itself and PGI."


Yep, you and others that see it this way should just go ahead and move on..... your toxic out look is the problem here and if it spreads to others in the player base... it will be the down fall.

[Mothykins]

KraftySOT, on 26 October 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

New player experience is a completely different ballgame and youll find no argument from me that its total crap.

But you gotta get the game breathing life again before you start worrying about what new players think. Youre still losing old players. You want to win them back, not just replace them with noobs that wont stick around.

Supposedly theyll work on that someday. But earnings arent really a barrier for new players. The barrier is that they dont know 80% of the mechs available for purchase with their first 10-12 million cbills, are crap and should be avoided.

I wasn't referring to just n00bs.

Lets say I've been playing for a year, and I haven't played Assaults. I wanna get in on that. I buy a Stalker.

My next however many matches in the thing are miserable. No elite, most likely not kitted out. Getting your ass handed to you. It's like making a new character in, Oooooh, say WoW, and getting Jammed into PvP against someone leveled waaay above you. Sucks and gets SUPER grindy.

A stock class, where you had to run no skills and stock 'Mechs would help, so, so very much, and would make even some of the older players quite happy.