373 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 08 November 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Yes, it traumatizes me greatly to see such a **** design as RNG instant kill cockpit shots.

It's working as intended then.

[psihius]

So what, I've got popped in my AWS-9M into a back location of a side torso with a crit to XL engine by an Arty on Alpine just because I looked down to finish off a Firestarter 20m in front of me - a definition of a "lucky guy". Sure, being this "lucky" will piss off anyone. but hey, sometimes my Arty does the same for the enemy, so no hard feelings, just part of the game.

What I would actually like two arty/air strike types: as is now (a precise one) and a "area of denial" with at least twice the spread (4-5 times the shells, less damage per shell) - you can equip only one of these, as usual. Because sometimes I really don't need it for the damage, I need it to scatter enemies or deny them a path (drop it in front of an attacking enemy and you ruin their plans - that gives you time for your own plan to fold out) and current arty is just too tight for that and is easy to steer clear in many cases.

Edited by psihius, 08 November 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mystere, on 08 November 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

It's working as intended then.

So you're not satisfied that it's a low-skill, essentially free weapon that can deal massive damage to multiple mechs within seconds, can be difficult to spot and often impossible to warn against, is difficult to avoid by a third of the mechs in the game, and can potentially be used 12 times in a game. It has to have a non-trivial chance to instantly kill any mech from full health too?

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

As this type of thread has been going around for years now, I'll just add:

If you want to reduce the number of 'strikes' used or seen, limit who can actually use them.
- Only Mech's that carry the command console have the ability to call in off board support.
- Not limited to single strikes, but if a spotter id's a target they can use the 'command' map to direct these strikes.
Now both spotters and command Mech's have a tactical use for these elements.

This would end the spam shoots we see now, with 12 shots being used per match. Yes, the command Mech's could repeat there off board calls, but timed delays required.

Only one solution, but there are many that could be used.
9erRed

[Hoax415]

<3 <3 <3 the command console idea. That's fantastic.

Being able to call in strikes could also be a quirk on various mechs that are "command" or "scout" mechs or have "advanced communications/targeting" gear per the lore.

If that sounds to punitive it could be that without the command console and/or quirk the cooldown between strikes is much much longer.

So for instance:

Your teammate uses arty.
-w/ a command console you can use your strike after <1> minute has elapsed.
-w/out a command console your cooldown is <1+?> minutes before you can call in your strike.

Edited by Hoax415, 09 November 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Mystere]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 November 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

So you're not satisfied that it's a low-skill, essentially free weapon that can deal massive damage to multiple mechs within seconds, can be difficult to spot and often impossible to warn against, is difficult to avoid by a third of the mechs in the game, and can potentially be used 12 times in a game.

What is this "third of the mechs" you speak of?

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Sorry to hear that. I haven't died to arty in months!

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

More often than not its wasted money on me. Atlas waddles out of area of effect just fine.

As you can see, Joe rides a Fatlas. So please list those mechs.

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 November 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

It has to have a non-trivial chance to instantly kill any mech from full health too?

The probability of a fresh mech being killed is actually very low. But, as usual the players who cry on the forums about something that killed them resort to exaggerations to bolster their claims.

Heck, once I killed with artillery someone who was already dismembered and one screw short of dying. And yet he raged in-game about being killed.

[Telmasa]

Voivode, on 07 November 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

If you are getting hit by strikes, stay mobile and make sure you are around 40 meters from your nearest friendly.

Not possible even half the time thanks to how the majority of maps have been constructed.
Not to mention, with most mechs weighing above 65 tons the entire advantage *to* that heavy tonnage is trading off speed (the ONLY possible means of avoiding being hit by arty/air strikes) for armor (which suddenly becomes a moot point, thanks to the 210-350 damage potential of arty/air strikes).

I also have no problem with UAVs, it's easy enough to look up and shoot them down with a bit of practice, because there's plenty of time to react.

Playing a Dire Wolf in competitive form oughtn't be about, "look at me, spam your arty strikes at me and hide and giggle while I lose 1/4th-1/2 of my armor value, my only real advantage over other clanner mechs, before I can do much about it - in fact, literally helpless to do anything about it".



You have to *try* to miss a Dire Wolf with an arty/air strike; so please, no more claims that "well, I avoided the smoke one time in my DW even though it wasn't really near my mech in the first place, so everybody should be able to do it".

Sandtiger, on 07 November 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

Telmasa,
I am rarely rude to people on the forums these days, so If I come across a little harsh I apologize in advance. Let me start by asking some rhetorical questions.
1. Is this not a game of future simulated combat? Why yes it is!

Key word: SIMULATED.

If it were to truly SIMULATE real future combat, I sincerely doubt that any artillery or air strike system in the universe could possibly hit so precisely, and almost totally unaffected by terrain, and near-instantaneously within the span of a mere 4-5 seconds, andwith enough power to cripple or effectively disable any mech regardless of tonnage.

The way it is now is a joke.

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2. Are air strikes used in our military today with devastating effects to enemy forces? Most certainly, during the Clinton administration and even now under the obamination administration.

ONLY under certain circumstances.
Those circumstances being:
1. Overwhelmingly one-sided air superiority.
2. Foot soldiers with the 21st-century equivalent of TAG and BAP (who, to be similar to what goes on ingame with MWO, also happen to have the artillery/strike launchers on a direct & instantaneous 2-way communication loop with full free-fire authority).
3. An already pre-established world-wide network of communication and advanced reconnaisance satellites, that wasn't under any threat whatsoever.
4. Used against lesser-trained & lesser-equipped enemies.

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3. How does it not take skill to use an air strike? You target a mech for four seconds, put your cross hairs on them, and push the associated button right? An immeasurable amount of time for you to be seen and shot at.

Average use of an airstrike:
Run towards enemy, find assault mech as soon as possible.
Pop smoke next to them, or ahead of them if they are moving.
Hide, since that takes you only mere milliseconds at most and all the maps provide ample cover for darting in and out of line of sight.

Let's assume, though, that you're bad at aiming and it takes you 4 seconds to look at that assault mech and click the strike button and then hide.

Only four seconds in order to do 210-350 damage.

And you want to claim that that takes skill to do? I can't believe you're being serious.

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4. If you have a great match and earn anywhere from 150K to 250K (without premium time) You have just spent $40,000 in winnings for that match right? So if you buy a new gaming rig, wouldn't you want the most bang for your buck. Or would you really pay $1,000.00 + for a single core processor?

It's more like 80-130k without premium time, let's be honest. Unless you manage to regularly get lucky with the ELO and deal 1000+ damage games over and over, you aren't going to see 150-250k.

That's still more than ample to cover the expenses to run artillery/air strikes nonstop.

There is not one bit of logic in comparing c-bills to real-word prices of computer parts.

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Now I don't like getting hit with Arty's either, in fact no one does. But to say they are over powered or have no place in this game is simple nonsense (in my opinion)

And in my opinion, trying to claim otherwise is, in fact, what's nonsense.

Quote

Objectively this discussion is moot. Historically, people who are killed by a weapon in this game have ALWAYS complained that it is over powered, or that it needs restrictions, or Nerfed in some way. Instead of just saying. OMG! I got creamed! I shouldn't have been a stationary target! I'll have to learn to keep moving.

Not true at all. Plenty of my MMO experiences haven't involved any of this "historical" complaining that you describe - excluding Call of Duty, or perhaps Halo.

Players come in all varieties, in all shapes and sizes, and in all levels of intelligence - but in my experience, all of them are quite capable of determining what's fair and what's unreasonable within the realm of a game. (That doesn't count inexperienced players that complain only out of ignorance and have yet to understand the particulars of the game they are playing - such as insisting that machine gun boating is OP.)

Quote

The problem is not the problem, it is merely the inability of players to admit their skills are substandard, and their lack of initiative or drive to improve necessary piloting skills that would make them more effective players.

The problem is that players like you refuse to listen to reason and merely create strawman arguments surrounding the notion that players who disagree with your preference to artillery abuse are *obviously* of a lesser ability than yourself - and, additionarlly, you imply that it has *anything* to do with determining what is fair and what is outrageous.

Let us be clear and simple, here:
There is absolutely nothing about artillery or air strikes that adds a positive experience calculated to create better pilots.
In fact, it directly counteracts pilot effectiveness upon the outcome of a match.

Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, can figure out how to mount a strike consumable and press a button during the course of a game.

That is not effective piloting.
That is not the use of preparation and strategy.
That is not mastery of mech tactics.
And, it is most certainly not honorable gameplay.

Mystere, on 06 November 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

Why don't you go uninstall MWO and go back to COD. Or better yet, go play My Little Pony. Anyone who thinks artillery strikes should just tickle their target deserve to be in that game.

Oh, the irony of telling me to go play CoD, while you simultaneously defend the MWO equivalent of "noobtubes" and magical kill streak perks.

Go read back through any of my posts, and show me where I once claimed that artillery/air strikes should, in terms of damage, be anything comparable to a tickle.

Otherwise, you're an imbecile.

WarHippy, on 06 November 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

Perhaps because I am right, and he was heavily exaggerating everything he said?
Sorry, but I almost never use arty or air strikes as I find them only marginally useful. I also feel c-bill income is way below where it should be so I'm not going to waste the money. They are not nearly as strong as the whiners are making it out to be.

You know, it is against my personal ethos to tell someone to play another game, but in your case I can make an exception. Uninstall if you have a problem with arty/air strikes as they are part of the game as they should be. Hello Kitty online might be a better fit for you. I got into Battletech and Mechwarrior for the lore, the giant robots, and the mixed arms combat, and I know I'm not alone either.

Tell me what a click-and-summon-overwhelming-amounts-of-damage button that bears an unsignificant impact upon profitability, and yet brings an overwhelming impact upon the outcome of any given match (as long as you're not completely terrible with it), has to do with adding a positive, fun element to a Mechwarrior, "giant robot", "mixed arms" Battletech game.

You bring up "lore" - go into tabletop rules for artillery, look for yourself, and see if you can find any rational argument for how it's been implemented ingame as of now.

It's not even remotely close.

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

See here you got your Facts mixed up. I was one of the players who liked Hippy's post. I have used Arty/Air exactly once. blew up my team, and decided to leave the strikes to those with more practice. So I am happy to make make players waste their C-Bills FAILING to hit my Atlas.
Kid got under your skin did he Hippy?

Look here, "kid", my post that you quoted quite obviously and clearly wasn't directed at you.

Besides, you using arty/air strike one time and being absolutely horrible with it doesn't make it a balanced addition to Mechwarrior combat as currently implemented.

Lastly, let's look at the fact that it "blew up" your team. Should such an easy-to-access, easy-to-use weapon have such a wildly huge impact upon a match?

Either it needs to have one of those two factors reduced (access and usage), or it needs its effectiveness reduced.

In my view, preferably all three.

Piney, on 07 November 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

What's not fair about arty / air strikes?
Stay away from the red smoke!

The red smoke that often can't be seen, only becomes truely noticable a full second or two after being deployed, and can instantly be placed anywhere you want on the map only by aiming and pressing a button?

As has been pointed out already at GREAT length and repeated many times:
Not So Simple.

Sandtiger, on 07 November 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

NEGATIVE! They are NOT pay to win, because you can purchase them with in game currency. I'll be honest. I hate getting blasted by them too. It's frustrating when you get nearly five in a row. But, if the other team wants to spend away their earnings on air strikes. So be it. It's kind of nice when you come out of a constant barrage of air strikes, and still kick the salvage out of the enemy team.

Being able to pay with in-game currency doesn't change the fact that you are *paying currency* in order to attain an overwhelming gameplay advantage.

Hence, it falls under the definition of "pay-to-win", and will continue to do so either until it is properly balanced, removed, or just comes as a free consumable on every mech.

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 November 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

So you're not satisfied that it's a low-skill, essentially free weapon that can deal massive damage to multiple mechs within seconds, can be difficult to spot and often impossible to warn against, is difficult to avoid by a third of the mechs in the game, and can potentially be used 12 times in a game. It has to have a non-trivial chance to instantly kill any mech from full health too?

Finally, someone I can agree with.

Everyone seems so ready to band up and stroke each other's egos in the "pro-strike" camp, I should get a turn too, right?

Edited by Telmasa, 09 November 2014 - 12:08 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Maybe keep the damage per shell the same as it is now, but make it so each mech can only be hit by a maximum of one shell [or take a maximum of like, 20 points worth of damage from one barrage or something], instead of multiple hits if the RNG hates you that instantly cripples your mech.

[Mystere]

QuantumButler, on 09 November 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

Maybe keep the damage per shell the same as it is now, but make it so each mech can only be hit by a maximum of one shell [or take a maximum of like, 20 points worth of damage from one barrage or something], instead of multiple hits if the RNG hates you that instantly cripples your mech.

That would be like the "magic force field" that currently "protects" the cockpit from missiles. That is already quite a big shame and there is no need to add another one like it.

[QuantumButler]

Mystere, on 09 November 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

That would be like the "magic force field" that currently "protects" the cockpit from missiles. That is already quite a big shame and there is no need to add another one like it.

You think red smoke spells are completely fine as is, while many people think they're unfun BS.

What makes your opinion the right one and theirs wrong?

Edited by QuantumButler, 09 November 2014 - 08:18 AM.

[Mystere]

QuantumButler, on 09 November 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

You think red smoke spells are completely fine as is, while many people think they're unfun BS.

As I and others have already said in other countless threads like this, artillery and air strike mechanics can be made better (e.g. require TAG). But, they should still be true to their nature -- utterly devastating on anything that suffers a direct hit.

QuantumButler, on 09 November 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

What makes your opinion the right one and theirs wrong?

Do you think a "magic force field" really applies in a BT game? Do you think cockpits should be invulnerable against missiles? Why only missiles and not also ballistic and energy weapons?


This is what artillery does (17 seconds in):

Edited by Mystere, 09 November 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[nehebkau]

LOL @ this thread.... you realize that LRMs are just as cheesy and its far easier to avoid than an arty strike?

Hopefully the devs do as i and /ignoreThread

Edited by nehebkau, 09 November 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Mystere, on 09 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

As I and others have already said in other countless threads like this, artillery and air strike mechanics can be made better (e.g. require TAG). But, they should still be true to their nature -- utterly devastating on anything that suffers a direct hit.




Do you think a "magic force field" really applies in a BT game? Do you think cockpits should be invulnerable against missiles? Why only missiles and not also ballistic and energy weapons?


This is what artillery does (17 seconds in):

There was a time cockpits were instantly destroyed by LRMs, everyone hated it.

[Mystere]

QuantumButler, on 09 November 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

There was a time cockpits were instantly destroyed by LRMs, everyone hated it.

And so the solution to give the cockpit a "magic force field" that protects it from missiles -- and only missiles -- was the correct one?

nehebkau, on 09 November 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

LOL @ this thread.... you realize that LRMs are just as cheesy and its far easier to avoid than an arty strike?

And yet there is an anti-LRM whine thread every other day or so.

nehebkau, on 09 November 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Hopefully the devs do as i and /ignoreThread

Well, I sure hope PGI does ignore this thread.

But, players can't really afford to ignore threads like this just in case PGI does choose to take a look. Otherwise, this game will be just like the 25c arcade games of old.

[QuantumButler]

Mystere, on 09 November 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

And so the solution to give the cockpit a "magic force field" that protects it from missiles -- and only missiles -- was the correct one?

It worked for Mechwarrior 2.

Yes, the cockpit should have protection against being destroyed by weapons that player skill has no control over where they hit, such as lock on missiles or artillery strikes [been heacapped by Arty a couple times]

Other guns not so much since you have to ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO AIM AT THE TINY HEAD HITBOX AND HIT IT WHICH IS A MEASURE OF PLAYER SKILL INSTEAD OF RNG.

RNG rolls determining if you die or not in a game ostensibly about competition are bad mechanics, hence why arty and airstrikes as they currently are are unbalanced.

Edited by QuantumButler, 09 November 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Pjwned]

Telmasa, on 09 November 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

Being able to pay with in-game currency doesn't change the fact that you are *paying currency* in order to attain an overwhelming gameplay advantage.

Hence, it falls under the definition of "pay-to-win", and will continue to do so either until it is properly balanced, removed, or just comes as a free consumable on every mech.

I agree with pretty much everything you said...except this, I think that's stretching it a little bit, especially when you say earlier that it's easy enough to pay the cost of strikes. I also don't really agree that it's such an overwhelming advantage most of the time, but I do absolutely agree that it needs to be toned down.

Most of my concern lies with the fact that it can RNG instant cockpit shot any mech in the game, and for those that defend it by saying that's not very likely to happen, that's a terrible way to defend it when it can and does happen (especially if you're on a cap point or the map is river city night or something) and says nothing to address how lame it is to be killed instantly like that. The issue is aggravated further by strikes being the most common method by far of destroying somebody's cockpit, which only happens because RNG shells come flying out of the sky from literally nowhere, so it's not much to ask that its capability of instantly destroying any mech in the game be toned down. Of course, the nature of it being a consumable strike and how it can be placed from potentially infinite range also raises concerns as well, but addressing the issue of damage per shell would go a long way towards making it more reasonable.

Edited by Pjwned, 09 November 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 09 November 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

And so the solution to give the cockpit a "magic force field" that protects it from missiles -- and only missiles -- was the correct one?

It's better than the alternative which is the ability to land shots on the cockpit with practically no skill involved, much like artillery strikes actually except apparently the strikes are exempt from being balanced in such a way.

If there was a skill based method of landing shots on the cockpit with missiles (and by that I assume you mean SSRMs & LRMs, not so much SRMs) then yeah that would be fine.

Edited by Pjwned, 09 November 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Pjwned]

nehebkau, on 09 November 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

LOL @ this thread.... you realize that LRMs are just as cheesy and its far easier to avoid than an arty strike?

Hopefully the devs do as i and /ignoreThread

If you don't have anything constructive to say and instead only want to shitpost then just leave, don't post anything, and actually ignore the thread instead of being a dipshit.

Edited by Pjwned, 09 November 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Grey Ghost]

Seriously now... If Arty/Air is going to stay exactly as it is then I want 2 consumables to counter each specific one, and just like Arty/Air they wouldn't stack. Call them Communication/Signal Jamming/Scrambling whatever. Have them basically use the same delay / use restrictions of Arty/Air. Maybe not stack with Arty/Air as well?

Now activating them might be tricky... either they automatically go off depending on whoever is closest to (and within) the strike zone for multiple carriers, or carrying either one gives an audible warning for manual activation.

Yeah, I'd pay the same amount of C-Bills to lessen the spam a bit.

[InspectorG]

Pjwned, on 09 November 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Most of my concern lies with the fact that it can RNG instant cockpit shot any mech in the game, and for those that defend it by saying that's not very likely to happen, that's a terrible way to defend it when it can and does happen (especially if you're on a cap point or the map is river city night or something) and says nothing to address how lame it is to be killed instantly like that. The issue is aggravated further by strikes being the most common method by far of destroying somebody's cockpit, which only happens because RNG shells come flying out of the sky from literally nowhere, so it's not much to ask that its capability of instantly destroying any mech in the game be toned down. Of course, the nature of it being a consumable strike and how it can be placed from potentially infinite range also raises concerns as well, but addressing the issue of damage per shell would go a long way towards making it more reasonable.

As far as BT rules, didnt you have to roll some dice ANY time your mech got hit in the head? Or am i remembering wrong?

Not to mention HEAT effects pertaining to the pilot.

I personally dont mind the off change of a arty headshot. KEEPS YOU ON YOUR TOES AND YOU SHOULD NEVER FEEL SAFE on a battlefield.
War is hell, they say.