20517 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Odanan, on 11 January 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Tell me how a LB 20X doing a scattered ~12 damage is better than a full 20 damage of the AC/20?
Or am I playing the cluster ammo wrong?

Snake eyes?
Double Six?
When you roll ~15-16 hits there is statistical one of those things about to happen.
When you hit your target 100times you have ~crit through armor and 3 cockpit hits.


Hgb734 - Lb20x with dual streak = soft kill on a Gargoyle in 2 rounds - snake eyes crit on Gyro - three cockpit hits plus fall damage injury pilot did blackout.

And the ultimate mech for void combat uses Lbx2 rounds it's the most dangerous weapon for such environment.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 11 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

Sort of, last time I used a LB-20X on TT, the cluster shot did 6-20 one point hits, every pellet has the same chance to crit (8+). One crit is all that is needed to destory weapons/ equipment, that's not a gyro or engine. So even getting 6 pellets to hit the target with a minimal roll on the missile table, still nets you 6 chances at landing a crit hit against an unarmoured component, provided all 6 hit the same location... also cluster rounds give you a -1 to hit as well, not fantastic, but hey it's one of the few negative to hit modifiers available.

Due to how the cluster rounds do their damage, it's why FL armour is such a giant F-U to cluster rounds, as FL armour out right ignores 1 point of damage per 5 taken (1 to 5= -1 damage, 6-10 = -2 damage taken, ect...). So firing cluster shot at FL will do no damage, unless that location is lacking any armour.

Karl Streiger, on 11 January 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

Snake eyes?
Double Six?
When you roll ~15-16 hits there is statistical one of those things about to happen.
When you hit your target 100times you have ~crit through armor and 3 cockpit hits.


Hgb734 - Lb20x with dual streak = soft kill on a Gargoyle in 2 rounds - snake eyes crit on Gyro - three cockpit hits plus fall damage injury pilot did blackout.

And the ultimate mech for void combat uses Lbx2 rounds it's the most dangerous weapon for such environment.

Hm... I rolled 1 critical chance for each group of 5 damage (like the LRM's). That's why I considered the LBX with cluster ammo just a heavier/bulkier LRM20...

I always preferred the UACs over the LBXs. Now I can rethink about that.

[ShadowbaneX]

LBX's roll on the missile to hit table, but it's not divided into groups of 5, it's one hit location per damage done. If it was groups of 5 cluster ammo is pretty useless for the LB-2/X & LB-5/X. This doesn't increase your chance of getting a head shot or a through armour critical, or just hit that unarmoued section, it just means you're hitting alot so you've more opportunities to get that crit chance.

The uAC's have two down sides. First is the jam chance, although that's a 1 in 36, so it's uncommon. The second, and greater disadvantage imo, is that if you hit they roll on the missile hit table. So each time you use the double fire mode, you're looking at a 58.33% chance of expending twice the ammo and racking up double the heat for no additional damage...and even if you do hit twice, that additional damage needs a separate hit location.

Baseline though they are usually improvements over the basic AC's, unless you've got the special ammo.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 11 January 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[Zergling]

Odanan, on 11 January 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Yes, LBX equipped with slug rounds are a direct upgrade of the equivalent AC. I'm not talking about that (specially because having direct upgrades with no drawbacks is something that really hurts the "balance" in Battletech).

I'm talking about the "classic" cluster rounds. When you shoot with a LB 20-X, you roll the amount of pellets that hit the target (missile hits table), much like a LRM-20. So, you don't do 20 damage (unless you roll 11 or 12 in the dice), but 6-20 damage, split in groups of 5 damage. Tell me how a LB 20X doing a scattered ~12 damage is better than a full 20 damage of the AC/20?
Or am I playing the cluster ammo wrong?

Trick with the LBXs in TT is to not rely exclusively on either slug or cluster ammo type, but to switch between them as situation demands.
Eg, the against mechs the trick is to use slug ammo until an enemy mech has a location stripped of armor (preferably a location with vital weapons, ammo and stuff like that) then swap to cluster ammo to increase the probability of a critical hit.

Then cluster ammo has a -1 to hit; when hit probabilities are low, it is better to use cluster ammo and score some damage, instead of using slug ammo and scoring zero damage.

Cluster ammo is also far superior against vehicles, due to how many through armor criticals they take; crit seeking weapons murder them.
VTOLs and fixed-wing aircraft (conventional and aerospace fighters) also suffer a -3 to hit bonus when shot via LBX cluster ammo, and they are even more vulnerable to crit seeking weapons.

[Bishop Steiner]

It's amazing how many Mediocre Mechs become GOOD jsut by switching AC10 for LB-10X
Hammerhands, RFL-3C

In fact, 2x LB-10X allow the RFL-3C to legitimately be the Long Range AA mech the 3N was meant to be... without any other Level 2 tech. And look at how beautiful the CN9-D became!

[ShadowbaneX]

Funny you should mention the Hammerhands. In a 3050-ish MechWarrior campaign I'm in, we started off by finding Star League-era prototype variants, one of which is a Hammerhands. It's got a pair of uAC/5s, a pair of MLs, an SRM6 and AMS. When we were repairing them I suggested dropping the cannons and the SRM for a pair of LB-10/Xs, but the player that wound up with that mech didn't go for it. Mostly because his character isn't that goodwill Gunnery and the uAC's give him more shots*. I'd have loved to see the twin LB/X version though.

*in this campaign there are some modifications to the base rules. In this case uAC's are roll twice, not roll on the missile hit table. Also, there are rules for clearing jams.

[Metus regem]

ShadowbaneX, on 12 January 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Funny you should mention the Hammerhands. In a 3050-ish MechWarrior campaign I'm in, we started off by finding Star League-era prototype variants, one of which is a Hammerhands. It's got a pair of uAC/5s, a pair of MLs, an SRM6 and AMS. When we were repairing them I suggested dropping the cannons and the SRM for a pair of LB-10/Xs, but the player that wound up with that mech didn't go for it. Mostly because his character isn't that goodwill Gunnery and the uAC's give him more shots*. I'd have loved to see the twin LB/X version though.

*in this campaign there are some modifications to the base rules. In this case uAC's are roll twice, not roll on the missile hit table. Also, there are rules for clearing jams.

Ask and you shall receive...

Spoiler

Hammerhands HMH-2D

Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-E-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 16,021,250 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,575

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 LB 10-X ACs
1 SRM-6 w/ Artemis IV FCS
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 114 points 7.50
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 224 14.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 36
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 16 24
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 12 24
L/R Leg 16 29

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
SRM-6 RT 4 2 3.00
Artemis IV FCS RT - 1 1.00
LB 10-X AC RA 2 6 11.00
LB 10-X AC LA 2 6 11.00
@SRM-6 (Artemis) (15) RT - 1 1.00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10) RA - 1 1.00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10) RA - 1 1.00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10) LA - 1 1.00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10) LA - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 15

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 16
4j 4 4 2 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, FLK 1/1/1

Edited by Metus regem, 12 January 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[CK16]

So this year's dream mech map?

January: Firemoth
February: Stinger/Wasp
March: Warhammer IIC
April: Annihilator/Devastator/Nightstar/Cerberus
May: Locust IIC/Fire Falcon
June: Crusader
July: Rifleman IIC
August: Raptor
September: Mad Cat Mk II
October: Sunder
November: Nova Cat
December: Uziel

I would be happy with this.

[Metus regem]

CK16, on 12 January 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

So this year's dream mech map?

January: Firemoth Pirahna
February: Stinger/Wasp
March: Warhammer IIC
April: Annihilator/Devastator/Nightstar/Cerberus
May: Locust IIC/Fire Falcon
June: Crusader
July: Rifleman IIC
August: Raptor
September: Mad Cat Mk II Coyotl
October: Sunder
November: Nova Cat
December: Uziel Mad Cat II

I would be happy with this.

FTFY

[Odanan]

CK16, on 12 January 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

So this year's dream mech map?

January: Firemoth
February: Stinger/Wasp
March: Warhammer IIC Black Lanner
April: Annihilator/Devastator/Nightstar/Cerberus Charger/Longbow
May: Locust IIC/Fire Falcon
June: Crusader
July: Rifleman IIC
August: Raptor
September: Mad Cat Mk II
October: Sunder
November: Nova Cat
December: Uziel

I would be happy with this.

FTFY

[Juodas Varnas]

CK16, on 12 January 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

So this year's dream mech map?

January: Firemoth Scorpion
February: Stinger/Wasp Scorpion
March: Warhammer IIC Scorpion
April: Annihilator/Devastator/Nightstar/Cerberus Scorpion
May: Locust IIC/Fire Falcon Scorpion
June: Crusader Scorpion
July: Rifleman IIC Scorpion
August: Raptor Scorpion
September: Mad Cat Mk II Scorpion
October: Sunder Scorpion
November: Nova Cat Scorpion
December: Uziel Goliath

I would be happy with this.

The list is PERFECT now.

[Odanan]

Looking good...

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 12 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Looking good...

wut...where? Ah. Front page.

Hmmm..legs look a little thick for my tastes.... bot the torso/arms look pretty good, at least form that angle

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 January 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 January 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

wut...where?

The main webpage.

[Bishop Steiner]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 January 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

The main webpage.

you mean where I never go, lol? (bookmark is set to the forums)

[Juodas Varnas]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 January 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

you mean where I never go, lol? (bookmark is set to the forums)

Fair enough.
The main page is quite... Pointless for the most part.

[Uncle Totty]

Odanan, on 12 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Looking good...

They did something this week!

(So now it feels a little less dead.)

Edited by Uncle Totty, 12 January 2017 - 01:29 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 12 January 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

From Zuccbook

[Pariah Devalis]

I'm trying to decide if it is an XL trap or not. I mean, head on, those ST are almost nonexistent, but side on, holy side torso Batman!

[Juodas Varnas]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 January 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Weapon geometry seems really promising.
The AC looks really good especially.

None of that "barrel sticking out of a square block" look that plagues so many mechs.
Wondering how different-sized missile launchers will look like.