1236 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Xythius, on 31 December 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I'm sure there were a few people that had similar anecdotal evidence that the Thunderbolt-5SS was a fantastic 'mech before the quirkening. Guess PGI should have left it alone then.

I have most of my 5+ kill matches in Cicadas.

I struggle to get 300+ damage matched in a Timby.

Cicadas are obviously better than Timbies...

PGI NEEDS to nerf IS.

I have proof:
















Your kills, I steals them...

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 31 December 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

I don't understand the folks who get all up in arms and demand, repeatedly, that anyone who doesn't believe the Summoner (or the Nova, or the Adder, or the Ice Ferret, or the oh-God-put-it-out-of-its-misery Mist Lynx) are perfectly serviceable 'Mechs who just need the right special snowflake pilot in them to bring out their True Potential is a complete blithering idiot.

Guys. We're not telling you that you suck. We're not belittling your good games in these suboptimal designs. We're not saying that everything you've ever done is a fluke.

We're trying to get Piranha to make bad 'Mechs better.

Shut up and take your buffs.

This is a problem that I've seen in a lot of balance discussions. People seem to forget that the pilot and the mech are two entirely independent elements from each other, and as such they need to be judged separately. What people forget is that an individual player can drive basically any mech that they want to, so if somebody is Kerensky's gift to mechwarrior with Mech A then that same amazing robot driver can just saddle up in Mech B that might be overall more effective.


A related dilemma is the use of very specific end-of-match results to say "But look guise, I got 1000 damage with my Flamer Hunchback! It's really good guise, you just gotta learn how to use it." Such results are biased by a lot of things such as the driver's skill, his team's skill, the enemy's skill, the loadouts/mechs used by both teams, the map, etc...it's influenced by a lot more variables than just the effectiveness of the mech/weapon itself. One random cherry-picked match can't be used as valid evidence as a mech being uber good.

Edited by FupDup, 31 December 2014 - 07:20 PM.

[ArchSight]

Wintersdark, on 31 December 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

The problem is that the Summoner does have to compete with all the clan mechs. JJ are an important differentiation but that puts the Summoner against a 5 ton heavier Timberwolf, which is a laughably bad comparison. If you need jump jets you go Timberwolf. If the jump jets are not critical, that immediately puts the Summoner behind the Stormcrow, Hellbringer, and Mad Dog - all lighter mechs at comparable speeds, the Stormcrow (15 tons lighter!) being faster, having better hitboxes, more pod space(thus simply better at any loadout), more hard point options... Just flat out better.

The timber wolf is not flat out better than the Summoner and the Summoner isn't flat out better than the timber wolf because they can't do everything better than each other. I've said which those things are so I don't think I need to repeat myself. You tried to make them to be insignificant. I stated why they're not insignificant. Then you state it's flat out better.

Ok, if it's flat out better than how long does the timber wolf survive with the common laser vomit build under a LRM barrage from a missile boat in comparison to a summoner with double AMS? No you can't escape the argument that "I wont be getting LRMed" there's this thing called NARC on a open ranged map.

Double AMS is useful in the strategy where the team decides to rush the generators in CW. When a scout comes and spots the rusher's from behind It's not possible to hide behind cover from LRMs while running out into range of shooting the generators quickly down. The summoner also runs faster than the Timber Wolf which makes the summoner better at generator rushing and while running to generators there's buildings in the way that the summoner can jump over quickly with it's 5 jump jets instead of going around.

Happy New Year!

Edited by ArchSight, 01 January 2015 - 03:24 AM.

[Odanan]

Mcgral18, on 21 December 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

They actually have a LT Energy hardpoint in the gamefiles rendered. Same position as the Ballistic ones; nice and high.


Nothing for the RT, but it's better than nothing:

This must be a glimpse of the hero Summoner (or just a mistake), because there is no Summoner omni configuration in the near future with that hardpoint.

Unfortunately, the Summoner is not well served with hardpoints and will never be. PGI need to heavily quirk its weapons to make it competitive.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

This must be a glimpse of the hero Summoner (or just a mistake), because there is no Summoner omni configuration in the near future with that hardpoint.

Unfortunately, the Summoner is not well served with hardpoints and will never be. PGI need to heavily quirk its weapons to make it competitive.

even that might not be enough. It has neither the tonnage to adequately use big weapons, nor the hardpoints for small ones like the Hellbringer. It's just singularly gimped by that convergence of events. And while not an issue in TT, doubled armor makes the ammo/heat an issue in MWO. You'd basically have to give it like insane UAC5 quirks, with pretty baby large laser level quirks to the ERPPC, which unless it also got massively less heat generation, would still prove near useless.

It's just...no easy fix. And that's what some folks on here seem to miss. The Summoner is not outright bad, but it's also not good. And just adding endo? Won't make it good (Though it would have the single biggest impact). Same with just weapon quirks, or removing JJs (which I am totally not for).

To really be competitive with the MAd Dog and Hellbringer, it probably needs some moderate quirking and endo. Just being realistic. It will never match the TW, which is fine. But that is as much how utterly broken the TW is by being the perfect convergence point for all good things in BTech rules, than the inadequacies of the other mechs.

If the Summoner was as legit/useful in CW as the MDD and Hellbringer, it would be fine.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 January 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

even that might not be enough. It has neither the tonnage to adequately use big weapons, nor the hardpoints for small ones like the Hellbringer. It's just singularly gimped by that convergence of events. And while not an issue in TT, doubled armor makes the ammo/heat an issue in MWO. You'd basically have to give it like insane UAC5 quirks, with pretty baby large laser level quirks to the ERPPC, which unless it also got massively less heat generation, would still prove near useless.

It's just...no easy fix. And that's what some folks on here seem to miss. The Summoner is not outright bad, but it's also not good. And just adding endo? Won't make it good (Though it would have the single biggest impact). Same with just weapon quirks, or removing JJs (which I am totally not for).

To really be competitive with the MAd Dog and Hellbringer, it probably needs some moderate quirking and endo. Just being realistic. It will never match the TW, which is fine. But that is as much how utterly broken the TW is by being the perfect convergence point for all good things in BTech rules, than the inadequacies of the other mechs.

If the Summoner was as legit/useful in CW as the MDD and Hellbringer, it would be fine.

Well, I'm sure something like +40% rate fire to PPCs or LB-X would make wonders for the chassis...

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Well, I'm sure something like +40% rate fire to PPCs or LB-X would make wonders for the chassis...

it already overheats at about 6-7 shots with the PPC, and can't pack enough ammo for the LB-X without stripping firepower by losing the missiles.

All that would do would be to leave it overheated and out of ammo faster, unfortunately.

It would need a 25-50% heat reduction on the PPC, and still would basically have to choose between energy vomit, or losing the missiles or Autocannon, as it simply cannot support both, and a PPC.

It's one reason I think it needs a multi missile torso, so one could drop the ppc, grab a pair of ERMLasers in the D right arm, and 2 -3 srm4-6 in the LT with the ballistic. At least then, it could put out some decent hit and run firepower.

End of the day, the Endo is the gimp factor.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 January 2015 - 07:16 AM.

[Odanan]

I don't agree PGI should add Endo Steel to the Summoner or any omnimech that doesn't have it. That would be ugly.
They should balance their mechs in other ways (like the quirks).

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

I don't agree PGI should add Endo Steel to the Summoner or any omnimech that doesn't have it. That would be ugly.
They should balance their mechs in other ways (like the quirks).

But what about ones like the summoner and adder that are hard point and or pod space starved? How would quriks fix those issues?

Personally I think a good was to solve it, would be to remove hard points from Omni's and just let them have pod space. It really would not change that much, as I am not advocating removing fixed equipment at this time, so you would still be crit slot limited to what can be placed in a section.

[InspectorG]

How hard would it be for PGI to code the FF into Endo?

If they did that, what builds would be possible? Would they be that much better? Dual ballistics even an option at that point?

I still think, from a coding standpoint, heavy ERPPC and Wub quirks are easiest to implement.

New torso pods would be amazing but PGI is likely throwing most their effort at CW.

[InspectorG]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

I don't agree PGI should add Endo Steel to the Summoner or any omnimech that doesn't have it. That would be ugly.
They should balance their mechs in other ways (like the quirks).

Well, essentially, Ferro has no point, except on a very limited few light mechs.

In BT with bv and R&R rules, it made sense cuz Ferro was cheaper/faster to fix than Endo(good endo costs $)

MWO has no repair time/cost. It only matters on like, 2-3 mechs where .5 extra tons is worth shaving some armor from the head.

Mediums, Heavies, Assaults who take Endo, usually take bigger engines AND DHS so slots left for weapons become premium.

Clans get a discount on slots but usually have hardwired DHS and JJ in 'bad spots' limiting choice for weapons.

Most solutions for the Summoner are gonna be on the inelegant side of beauty anyhow...

[Deimir]

Metus regem, on 01 January 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

But what about ones like the summoner and adder that are hard point and or pod space starved? How would quriks fix those issues?

Personally I think a good was to solve it, would be to remove hard points from Omni's and just let them have pod space. It really would not change that much, as I am not advocating removing fixed equipment at this time, so you would still be crit slot limited to what can be placed in a section.

Normally I avoid hyperbole, but I don't see how this wouldn't be the absolute worst idea ever.

[InspectorG]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Well, I'm sure something like +40% rate fire to PPCs or LB-X would make wonders for the chassis...

ERPPC would need Thud 9S like buffs. Arm ERPPCs arent optimal either. It would need the whole package other than range.

Module for cooldown.
Quirks for at least 30-50% heat
@33% cooldown
30% increase velocity.

And, agility boost-turn, twist speed, accel/stop rate+20%
JJ boost, more acceleration and a duration boost.
Buff leg structure by 15% for rough landings.

This, for the Prime, gets you a sub optimal poptart. Jumping Thud 9S would be godmode. Summoner has to jump way too high to get those arm ERPPC to clear most terrain. This leaves the Summoner Prime with 2ERPPC(3 with E torso pods ive heard of- which would be way better) VERY mobile striker/flanker

Missile variant should get about half the agility quirks but with +20% sensor range, +30% faster target lock.
Generic missile quirks for LRM/SRM
WITH ENDO, you get more ammo, and a very quick jump-lurmer. Better but still Lurms. Summon Splat would, theoretically, have more agility to survive and ENDO gives tonnage for Artemis.

Laser variant:
Heat and Duration quirks.
Hard to be that quick striker if you have to stare at a target for over 1 full second.
ERLL, cut duration by 60%, heat by 20?
LPL, duration by 55-60%, cut heat

Rest are generic energy.

[Wintersdark]

ArchSight, on 01 January 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

The timber wolf is not flat out better than the Summoner and the Summoner isn't flat out better than the timber wolf because they can't do everything better than each other. I've said which those things are so I don't think I need to repeat myself. You tried to make them to be insignificant. I stated why they're not insignificant. Then you state it's flat out better.

Ok, if it's flat out better than how long does the timber wolf survive with the common laser vomit build under a LRM barrage from a missile boat in comparison to a summoner with double AMS? No you can't escape the argument that "I wont be getting LRMed" there's this thing called NARC on a open ranged map.

I won't be getting LRM'd. I can say this with thousands of drops experience, I die to LRM's in less than 1:100 matches - and those cases are ones where I've made a terrible error.

But ignoring the above? TTL is pretty close. The Timberwolf can mount AMS as well, so it's just 1 AMS difference. That's 1/5 less impacts, so very slightly longer. But if you're being subjected to all all out whole enemy team missile barrage, that (already extremely unlikely) circumstance is further narrowed to: So that tiny bit of time between "The Timberwolf dies" and "The Summoner dies too". And it's a small, small bit of time.

Quote

Double AMS is useful in the strategy where the team decides to rush the generators in CW. When a scout comes and spots the rusher's from behind It's not possible to hide behind cover from LRMs while running out into range of shooting the generators quickly down. The summoner also runs faster than the Timber Wolf which makes the summoner better at generator rushing and while running to generators there's buildings in the way that the summoner can jump over quickly with it's 5 jump jets instead of going around.

Speed doesn't make the summoner better at generator rushing. Speed isn't the critical point so much as moving your whole team as one together. A team of Timberwolves rushing generators is vastly more dangerous than a team of summoners doing it, and if you've got a mixed team the summoners are running at Timberwolf speed anyways.


I get that you disagree with me here, so I'll leave it at this.

Better hitboxes, more, larger weapons, better hardpoints, more tonnage, equal jump capacity are the Timberwolf's advantages.

Slightly higher speed, and an extra AMS (at further cost to it's already grievously insufficient loadout) are the Summoners' advantages. The Summoner has advantages, but they're minor ones at best compared to the HUGE advantages the Timberwolf has.

I want the summoner to be great. I'm not a huge Timberwolf fan. But in actual practice, the Summoner is so far behind the Timberwolf it's not even close.

Ask IS players which they'd sooner face in a 1 on 1, or which they'd sooner face a team full of. Or, really, any clan players too.

There's a reason the Timberwolf is generally accepted as "Tier 0" or basically being flat out overpowered, while the Summoner is a laughing stock, decried by even it's staunchest fans (See: Bishop Steiner). Optomistically, the Summoner can do Gauss+ERPPC (It's only "Tier 2" build, though even that is a stretch)... which lands it rather noticably shy of the Timberwolf's Gauss+2ERPPC (which isn't even close to it's best builds)

[Mcgral18]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

This must be a glimpse of the hero Summoner (or just a mistake), because there is no Summoner omni configuration in the near future with that hardpoint.

Unfortunately, the Summoner is not well served with hardpoints and will never be. PGI need to heavily quirk its weapons to make it competitive.

That would be the M variant, 3051.
http://www.sarna.net.../Summoner_(Thor)

It's an ERSL and SSRM6 in the LT.

[Ultimax]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

I don't agree PGI should add Endo Steel to the Summoner or any omnimech that doesn't have it. That would be ugly.
They should balance their mechs in other ways (like the quirks).

This is one place I disagree.

What would be so ugly about it?


There is only one mech, the Dire Wolf, that is a top Tier clan mech that would gain from this (Because the TBR & SCR already have both Endo and FF) and the Dire Wolf already has a bit over 50 tons to play with.


What build could the Dire Wolf run that would be so much better? A few extra heatsinks or some extra ammo?



My opinion is that they could remove the Locked Endo/Ferro restriction and let any clan mech remove or add it and very little would actually change for the top mechs but a lot would improve for the clan mechs that need it with the stipulation that the other gear that is locked, remains locked.


i.e.

Endo & Ferro become addable/removable upgrades

Engines, DHS & JJs remain locked





Please tell me what build would suddenly be so problematic if the restriction on Endo & Ferro was removed, as long as the other restrictions were kept in place.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 January 2015 - 12:09 PM.

[Odanan]

Ultimatum X, on 01 January 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

This is one place I disagree.

What would be so ugly about it?

There is only one mech, the Dire Wolf, that is a top Tier clan mech that would gain from this (Because the TBR & SCR already have both Endo and FF) and the Dire Wolf already has a bit over 50 tons to play with.


What build could the Dire Wolf run that would be so much better? A few extra heatsinks or some extra ammo?



My opinion is that they could remove the Locked Endo/Ferro restriction and let any clan mech remove or add it and very little would actually change for the top mechs but a lot would improve for the clan mechs that need it with the stipulation that the other gear that is locked, remains locked.

i.e.

Endo & Ferro become addable/removable upgrades

Engines, DHS & JJs remain locked

Please tell me what build would suddenly be so problematic if the restriction on Endo & Ferro was removed, as long as the other restrictions were kept in place.

If you are talking about unlocking ES (or FF) for only Summoner, I'm against. But unlocking it for all Clan Omnimechs? I see no big issue.

[Ultimax]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

If you are talking about unlocking ES (or FF) for only Summoner, I'm against. But unlocking it for all Clan Omnimechs? I see no big issue.

Yes, for all clan mechs.

[InspectorG]

Ultimatum X, on 01 January 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

There is only one mech, the Dire Wolf, that is a top Tier clan mech that would gain from this (Because the TBR & SCR already have both Endo and FF) and the Dire Wolf already has a bit over 50 tons to play with.


What build could the Dire Wolf run that would be so much better? A few extra heatsinks or some extra ammo?

I dont think the Dire would benefit from said upgrades. It could conceivably help laser builds but you would likely run out of space for big Dakka/ammo...kinda the whole point of 50tons of pods?????

[Metus regem]

Having Endo and or FF actually hurts the Dire Wolf, as it would run out of Crit space very quickly.... Hell it does that already....