1126 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

operatorZ, on 22 January 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

I was refuting his assertion that lateral movement can "dodge" 50-70% of incoming damage.....it cant. This is true unless pilot is not very good. It is possible to hit you with my alpha strike while you are moving laterally and easily so easily put 50-70% damage on one component because of instant pinpoint convergence. And the inner sphere weapons have a huge advantage in this due to PPD weapons.

On your second point you are stretching the tweaks I think are reasonable to accuracy way beyond what I stated. Furthermore you are taking the position that if weapons become slightly less accurate that movement and torso twisting will no longer be viable tactics in the game. The opposite is true, if lateral movement, torso twisting and spreading damage are effective in the current state they will be even more effective with a slight "nerf" to overall accuracy. That's just logical. This further benefits players that do this and does not "nerf" skill, quite the opposite.

The PP isn't PP unless all of your weapons are traveling at the same speed AND your target is not moving. Weapons will converge on where your reticle is, if you are leading your target with some terrain in the background that is a couple hundred meters away, they will NOT be pinpoint. If your mechs hardpoints were right next to each other than yeah they will be very close but even without convergence that would be the case.

And I am not saying spreading damage will be less effective, I am saying it will be less necessary because the game will spread damage for you. Increasing skill level? No way.

pyrocomp, on 22 January 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

You are, if I'm correct, describing a naturraly occuring `speed shield'. But this is mostly true only if you are leading a mech against empty background (sky or something really far off). This is really a rare occurance. Most often you have something close to the above mentioned Locust, mostly terrain. So the chance to hit same location is still high except for the legs, but same torso section still most probably will be hit twice (I woulde've preferred to check probabilities, but haven't figured how to do it in game, not in modeling soft).

I agree that term 'same pixel' is inaccurate, but hitting same component isn't any better. Especially across the map. Mid range, low range, optimal range - all ok, this is MW. But not across the map. The effect of convergence behing the actual position of a mech that occur becuse of the leading in most cases is not large enough to spread damage between components at high distances. That'll be more accurate statement. Should it be this way or not in MWO is a matter of discussion. I'd like to have a limit in damage local density at high distances. Wether this will be achived by more detailed mech structure, complex heat system (for example, instead of single heat meter divide mech into sections that transfer heat to each other and dissipate it according to heat sinks placement with penalties for overheating) or some more complex wepon shot mechanics (CoF, recoil, convergence to different points etc.) is a different question.

The "speed shield" is still effective if the terrain is 1-200 m back, especially if the weapons don't start close together. In my experience, this effect is definitely enough to spread damage between two components. I've even had the extreme case of spreading damage between two mechs from PPCs from my Jester's arms.

And frankly, I don't know why you wouldn't two ERPPCs from a WHK's arm to hit the same component. They both start RIGHT next to each other. Even if they didn't converge on each other at all they would still probably hit the same component provided they didn't diverge.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 January 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

I'd like to see convergence go in torso mounted weapons, and kept in arm weapons. However that wont stop the meta pinpoint alpha game that MWO has evolved into. Stacking weapons needs to end. At this point I'd say we need weapon size hard points. This would help and be easier to balance the game by PGI.

[darkchylde]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 22 January 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

I'd like to see convergence go in torso mounted weapons, and kept in arm weapons. However that wont stop the meta pinpoint alpha game that MWO has evolved into. Stacking weapons needs to end. At this point I'd say we need weapon size hard points. This would help and be easier to balance the game by PGI.

Limiting the size of the hardpoints would address a lot of the issues currently plaguing this game - past, present, and future.

[Gas Guzzler]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 22 January 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

I'd like to see convergence go in torso mounted weapons, and kept in arm weapons. However that wont stop the meta pinpoint alpha game that MWO has evolved into. Stacking weapons needs to end. At this point I'd say we need weapon size hard points. This would help and be easier to balance the game by PGI.

Why does stacking weapons need to end? Problem with two PPCs?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 January 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 January 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

The "speed shield" is still effective if the terrain is 1-200 m back, especially if the weapons don't start close together.  In my experience, this effect is definitely enough to spread damage between two components.  I've even had the extreme case of spreading damage between two mechs from PPCs from my Jester's arms.

And frankly, I don't know why you wouldn't two ERPPCs from a WHK's arm to hit the same component.  They both start RIGHT next to each other.  Even if they didn't converge on each other at all they would still probably hit the same component provided they didn't diverge.

Well, from the other point of the gun, e.g. a light and med pilot, I don't think it's true that the spread is that large. But can't argue. Again, shooting 2xAC-5+AC-2 in SHD-2H at 1000-1200 m lands most carefully led shots at moving TBR despite projectile speed difference. And I've been one-shotted in RVN on the run not a single time, not sure from which distance in meters, but not close.And frankly, even as a light pilot I don't see problem with WHK's PPC arm (designed that way be that way), I see a problem with CPLT and JM6. More in a way that my experience tells me that a component still has high chance to be hit with all shots. It's not mandatory that ALL shots will ALWAYS hit that way, I agree that there is spread, but I'd like it... well not bigger spread but, as I said, less damage density (be it spread, damage limitation, close located weapons interference or anything based on some common sense and logic).

Edited by pyrocomp, 22 January 2015 - 06:21 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I wan't delayed convergence, like the autofocus on a camera, so that you'd have to stay perfectly on target for some time before firing if you want to give the weapons time to converge. This would increase the importance of good aim, and look awesome as lasers converge during their beam duration. You could have various things effect the speed of convergence, like quirks, having hard lock, having completed info gathering, Narc, TAG and so on. You could also have bigger more powerful weapons converge slower than small weapons.

But no matter how complex or difficult the convergence, it should be deterministic and possible to master.

I absolutely do NOT want any more random elements added to weapons, no cone of fire or any other RNG bullshit, it should be as skill based as possible.

Edited by Sjorpha, 22 January 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 January 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why does stacking weapons need to end? Problem with two PPCs?

Maybe problems to understand how ERPPC squeezes into raven? I have such difficulty (not mentioning firing PPC under ECM and all the mentions about shielding on sarna).

[Matthew Ace]

It is still possible to have aiming remain skill-based while adding COF. If anything, if done in a certain manner (refer to my earlier post in thread), skills become a bigger factor.

Basic idea, COF tied to effective range of weapon (raising the value of long range energy/ballistic even at closer range), and COF should be small enough such that aiming dead center on a component of a big mech (for now, Center torso) will still yield all the damage on a single component, while doing the same on a light, at that same range, damage may be scattered on its side torsos. To achieve the same effect, you may need to be at say... 50% range.

However if COF is universal across all weapons (e.g. long range weapons scatters the same amount as a shorter ranged weapon at any given range) then no. That would just be stupid.

As far as I can see, the main concern is making Firestarters even harder to take. Fixing the apparent problem with hitregs first would be necessary.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 22 January 2015 - 08:40 PM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Just to add support voice.
PPFLD is the biggest game play problem.
Sooner or later you will need to fix it.
HomelessBill had best idea about it. Or something there are plenty of good ideas how to fix it.

[Lightfoot]

operatorZ, on 22 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

I guess I never though about it that way having played most of the mechwarrior titles. It seems obvious that you would use "strafe" to effectively make yourself harder to hit. Its not so much a matter of skill as a matter of necessity. However, with the current low TTK compared to other mech titles this "skill" is severely limited in effectiveness. I do not believe it is relevant to what my points are on convergence, for these reasons:

1. Moving laterally or not, I can easily hit you with my alpha strike because of instant pinpoint convergence. Unless your a 150kph light which is a different story all together.

2. "A game where all anyone has to do is park on a hill and twitch their finger the fastest." I believe that is actually closer to what we have than your assertion that you can "move laterally dodge 50-70 percent of incoming damage converging into the same section" many good players can put 50-70% of damage on a particular component as you move laterally because of instant pinpoint convergence.

I would love to play the game you describe, I just don't see it here.

I think you are assuming that I want do away with convergence, I do not. I do endorse the idea of adding some tweaks that make the game where you can dodge 50-70% of incoming damage by good tactical movement, increasing TTK and making the game less "where all anyone has to do is park on a hill and twitch their finger the fastest." This is not removing convergence all together or even reducing it by half, just adding some realistic dynamics that make it so actually hitting somebody at 1000m with all your weapons is a skill rather than a given.

In fact you could (and my preference) leave convergence as is and just make the mechs reticule react to mech movement, enemy fire and recoil. This would accomplish the same thing while still allowing for perfect convergence at times..further increasing the the skill cap while still allowing for the game to be easily learned by new players. Almost every modern shooter I can think of has some sort of reticule bloom or movement and it does its job well.

You would be surprised then because you won't hit a laterally shifting target with an alpha-strike of mixed weapons. Speed is a factor, but it works fine at just 60 kph too. I have used it so many times with heavy or assault mechs at under 200 meters with my mech severely damaged vs an almost intact opponent and won because they did not move laterally, but instead just pivoted. In fact today I was surrounded by 5 mechs shooting at my mech and just circle-strafing a target allowed me to stay there battling them for 10 seconds.

You see, most weapon travel times in MWO are very slow, even PPCs now. At 300-400 meters the spread of different weapons on a laterally shifting target is enormous.

[operatorZ]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 January 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

The PP isn't PP unless all of your weapons are traveling at the same speed AND your target is not moving. Weapons will converge on where your reticle is, if you are leading your target with some terrain in the background that is a couple hundred meters away, they will NOT be pinpoint. If your mechs hardpoints were right next to each other than yeah they will be very close but even without convergence that would be the case.

And I am not saying spreading damage will be less effective, I am saying it will be less necessary because the game will spread damage for you. Increasing skill level? No way.

its still PP damage because the weapons system delivers it...not spread damage like LRM's or SRM's. If you twist or I can't hold target it doesn't make it any less pinpoint...inner sphere has the advantage in these weapon systems. even their lasers are more pinpoint. and as far as the skill goes....currently any idiot can line up a shot moving at top speed and easily hit his target...introducing reticule bloom makes it so players have to think about what they are doing: movement , position, enemy, what weapon system to fire, sequence of fire etc. You don't think that's skill?

And if spreading damage may seem less nessary because people miss more..... but the good players don't miss much and they will still do it because it's even more effective if there was reticule bloom/drift. This is so easily understood it hurts my head that you don't get this.

And every major FPS has this component....every one....is MWO to EASY for it.....I guess so

And let me reiterate once again...I am not talking major change here....small slight change .....this is not a revamping of the game system....this would be a small change that would increase TTK and still allow high skill players to do what dey do even better.

[Gyrok]

operatorZ, on 22 January 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

its still PP damage because the weapons system delivers it...not spread damage like LRM's or SRM's. If you twist or I can't hold target it doesn't make it any less pinpoint...inner sphere has the advantage in these weapon systems. even their lasers are more pinpoint. and as far as the skill goes....currently any idiot can line up a shot moving at top speed and easily hit his target...introducing reticule bloom makes it so players have to think about what they are doing: movement , position, enemy, what weapon system to fire, sequence of fire etc. You don't think that's skill?

And if spreading damage may seem less nessary because people miss more..... but the good players don't miss much and they will still do it because it's even more effective if there was reticule bloom/drift. This is so easily understood it hurts my head that you don't get this.

And every major FPS has this component....every one....is MWO to EASY for it.....I guess so

And let me reiterate once again...I am not talking major change here....small slight change .....this is not a revamping of the game system....this would be a small change that would increase TTK and still allow high skill players to do what dey do even better.

Who thinks TTK is a problem? With all the buffs to structure on everything armor is almost tripled for major components...why should we now make light mechs lag shield + reticle bloom + buffed structure, when mechs like the Firestarter are clearly at the bleeding edge of "Ok, do not nerf it...yet."

[Illuzian Pryde]

I don't have a problem with convergence but torso only non converging weapons would definitely make the game interesting, or even going as far as limiting convergence to arms with only hand actuators.

Would kind of make things interesting but the hud would need some sort of reticle to represent the weapon hit locations.

[operatorZ]

Lightfoot, on 22 January 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

You would be surprised then because you won't hit a laterally shifting target with an alpha-strike of mixed weapons. Speed is a factor, but it works fine at just 60 kph too. I have used it so many times with heavy or assault mechs at under 200 meters with my mech severely damaged vs an almost intact opponent and won because they did not move laterally, but instead just pivoted. In fact today I was surrounded by 5 mechs shooting at my mech and just circle-strafing a target allowed me to stay there battling them for 10 seconds.

You see, most weapon travel times in MWO are very slow, even PPCs now. At 300-400 meters the spread of different weapons on a laterally shifting target is enormous.

Yes are correct a mixed speed alpha will not all hit.....but mixed weapon layouts aren't the problem....it's the boats. And all their weapons move the same speed.

[Gyrok]

operatorZ, on 22 January 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

Yes are correct a mixed speed alpha will not all hit.....but mixed weapon layouts aren't the problem....it's the boats. And all their weapons move the same speed.

What boats?

There are no 6 PPC mechs anymore...maybe 2-3, a warhawk or 9S can run 4, but not alpha them...not safely anyway.

Gauss boats? DW can do 3 reasonably and only fire 2 at once.

AC20 boats? Many IS mechs can do 2...short range, etc.

UAC boats? Ok, KGC can do 4...Jager 3-4 and CTF-IM can do 3, DW can do the equivalent of 3-4 because 6 is about 1/3 of the PPFLD in IS UACs, it just sprays a hail of tiny bullets that spread all over a mech.

So, aside from one minor point...(and it really is minor, as the UAC DW is probably one of the worst builds for it...) you have no leg to stand on.

[operatorZ]

Gyrok, on 22 January 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

Who thinks TTK is a problem? With all the buffs to structure on everything armor is almost tripled for major components...why should we now make light mechs lag shield + reticle bloom + buffed structure, when mechs like the Firestarter are clearly at the bleeding edge of "Ok, do not nerf it...yet."

Firestarter is a whole different ball of wax and a different thread but yes it needs a tone down. i don't play lights much and a don't care for them....to easy. And I guess you have to read the thread to see where TTK came in and in what context but all this talk is centered around on idea (convergence) that at its core whether people admit it or not...is increasing TTK...if lights need a nerf because of accuracy changes so be it. .....call Paul.

[operatorZ]

Gyrok, on 22 January 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

What boats?

There are no 6 PPC mechs anymore...maybe 2-3, a warhawk or 9S can run 4, but not alpha them...not safely anyway.

Gauss boats? DW can do 3 reasonably and only fire 2 at once.

AC20 boats? Many IS mechs can do 2...short range, etc.

UAC boats? Ok, KGC can do 4...Jager 3-4 and CTF-IM can do 3, DW can do the equivalent of 3-4 because 6 is about 1/3 of the PPFLD in IS UACs, it just sprays a hail of tiny bullets that spread all over a mech.

So, aside from one minor point...(and it really is minor, as the UAC DW is probably one of the worst builds for it...) you have no leg to stand on.

You realize that you just named a bunch of them....? Want me to name some more? Ok easy....wubshee...timber laser vomit....Firestarter small laser....TDR ppc or laser.... Streak crow...srm crow...laser crow....the list goes on....it's called the meta....have you heard of it?

..If you really want in on this conversation you would have to read where it started.....I'm not going to explain it all again.

[Orodain]

Yes do away with convergence and ghost heat.

[Davers]

Blakkstar, on 21 January 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

The entire Battletech combat system is based on three things: difficulty shooting at range, difficulty while moving, and semi-random hit locations.

Why does everybody complain TTK on this game is too low? There is only a slight difficulty to shoot at range, next to no penalty for moving (except jumping), and no CoF or RNG when it comes to hit location. This game is trying to shoehorn a non-Battletech FPS shooting system into the Battletech construction system and it isn't working very well.

Mechs are easily 10x more durable in MWO than in TT, even with the greatly increased fire rate.

[Lagster]

There actually isn't that much convergence in the game, if you're leading the target because your weapons are not hitscan then they're actually converged at the land/wall you're pointing at, which means they probably won't hit the same spot on the mech as it walks into your shots. If you're using lasers, they're DOT so odds are the lasers will graze around the target somewhat.