716 replies to this topic

[dimachaerus]

Adamski, on 28 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure once you add in the 2x Basic Pilot skills, everyone does have True DHS (or pretty damn close).

The cXL engine needs this change, because it is currently too powerful, regardless of what it will do to the Summoner.

Just like ECM needs a big ol' grand slam of the nerf bat, even though it will hurt the CMD-2D.

The Summoner, Gargoyle, and other Clan mechs will have to wait on quirks / mechlab changes to become competitive, just like MANY IS variants are doing.

Using that same logic I can safely say that IS Standard engines are OP because they can survive the destruction of BOTH side torso's and also take up less crit space. The Heat penalties are fine for me, as they are sort-of-simulating engine hits in TT, adding a 20% speed reduction is just taking it too far and will do more harm than good. I'd much rather they added a full critical hit system to the game, as it should have had since day one, but coding in gyro hits, engine hits, actuator damage, sensor hits, life support, and having all the myriad effects they would cause, is pretty far out of PGI's scope at this time it seems

Also, trying to say that the vast majority of clan mechs being essentially garbage in one or more ways is justified because "Some IS mechs are still bad" is pretty much the funniest stuff I've heard all week. Thanks for that, I needed a good chuckle.

I'd love it of the clans were actually as superior as they're supposed to be, it'd make whipping them that much more satisfying because I like playing the underdog.

[Bobzilla]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

depends which side you lose.


exactly this.

And the Summoner and Nova are my favorite Clan Mechs. But I am able to see the big picture a heck of a lot better than some folks can, apparently.

The big picture is, in CW nothing will change, and in pug/group the least used clan mechs will be used even less.

PGI will look at their numbers, see how few are being used and have to give them huge quirks.



So really this is just nerfing bad mechs, just to buff them later, in a crazy, long, indirect, round-about way to nerf the scrow and timby.

Or they could save some time/effort and just do direct negative quirks or nerfs to a couple clan mechs and see how that shakes out.

[Adamski]

dimachaerus, on 28 March 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Using that same logic I can safely say that IS Standard engines are OP because they can survive the destruction of BOTH side torso's and also take up less crit space. The Heat penalties are fine for me, as they are sort-of-simulating engine hits in TT, adding a 20% speed reduction is just taking it too far and will do more harm than good. I'd much rather they added a full critical hit system to the game, as it should have had since day one, but coding in gyro hits, engine hits, actuator damage, sensor hits, life support, and having all the myriad effects they would cause, is pretty far out of PGI's scope at this time it seems

Also, trying to say that the vast majority of clan mechs being essentially garbage in one or more ways is justified because "Some IS mechs are still bad" is pretty much the funniest stuff I've heard all week. Thanks for that, I needed a good chuckle.

I'd love it of the clans were actually as superior as they're supposed to be, it'd make whipping them that much more satisfying because I like playing the underdog.

Firstly, Standard engines weight 2x as much as an XL. That is why they are not OP.

Secondly, in TT, losing 2 engine criticals gives 10 heat per turn, AND 10 heat on the heatscale is 2 movement point penalty (21.6 Kph).

OR if you downgrade say a Timberwolf from its 375 XL (26.5t) 89.1 Kph 15 Engine Heatsinks
to a 305 STD (26.5t) 72.5 Kph 12 Engine Heatsinks, it is exactly a 20% loss in engine heatsinks and a 20% loss in speed.

So yeah, this brings cXL engines into balance without making Standard engines OP.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bobzilla, on 28 March 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

The big picture is, in CW nothing will change, and in pug/group the least used clan mechs will be used even less.

No, not really true. The big picture is while the SCR/TBR will still be the obvious choice in CW; they will not be quite as stupidly potent a setup as they are now.

Nor will they be in Casual. And the even bigger issues that get revealed now with the second class citizens, might finally be enough to force PGI to address them beyond "2% ballistics cooldowns", etc.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gyrok, the 20% cooling loss is taken from the total cooling ability of the engine, that's true. Which is why if you lost the torso and arm with 10 DHS shoved into them, you get a massive 45% cooling loss TOTAL. Those DHS outside the engine don't perform as well, remember?

And actually Gyrok, you actually stated it's a 70% loss NOW, more than once in multiple threads on this subject.

And, once again for you people who keep claiming this is all due to butthurt no skilled players screaming nerf the clams...

PGI CAME UP WITH THIS CHANGE, THIS IS BASED DIRECTLY ON THEIR DATA FROM CW, THIS IS NOT IN RESPONSE TO THE PLAYERS SCREAMING CLAMS R OPZ!!!11!!!11!

Seriously, you guys look stupid as hell constantly saying this a player initiated thing. It shows all too clearly that you do NOT give a surat's furry rear end about actual parity, you just don't want YOUR toys touched.

[Johnny Z]

The best reason for this change is for realism and the sim. If part of the engine is gone it should have an effect in game.

[Andi Nagasia]

i still cant agree with a 20% speed nerf,
i can understand realism but in this case i dont think its a good idea,
too many Clan Mechs would go from Bad to worse, and for Clan Lights & the IFR it would be a death sentence,
i would rather take -20%Acceleration -20%Deceleration & -20%Twist-Speed, rather than a Speed Nerf,

and lets be honest, this isnt about realism,
because if the TBR/SCR didnt exist we wouldnt be talking about this,
this isnt a Feature to help immersion, this is a nerf,
so please dont say its because of realism,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 March 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[Pjwned]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 March 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

i still cant agree with a 20% speed nerf,
i can understand realism but in this case i dont think its a good idea,
too many Clan Mechs would go from Bad to worse, and for Clan Lights & the IFR it would be a death sentence,
i would rather take -20%Acceleration -20%Deceleration & -20%Twist-Speed, rather than a Speed Nerf,

Depending on how the speed loss is (would be) implemented you may find that acceleration, deceleration, and twist speed would also be affected as a consequence of losing speed.

Quote

and lets be honest, this isnt about realism,
because if the TBR/SCR didnt exist we wouldnt be talking about this,
this isnt a Feature to help immersion, this is a nerf,
so please dont say its because of realism,
Edit- Spelling

If clans didn't have any top tier mechs like the timberwolf & stormcrow people would be screaming their lungs out about how PGI went too far nerfing the clans etc.

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 29 March 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Firstly, Standard engines weight 2x as much as an XL. That is why they are not OP.

Secondly, in TT, losing 2 engine criticals gives 10 heat per turn, AND 10 heat on the heatscale is 2 movement point penalty (21.6 Kph).

OR if you downgrade say a Timberwolf from its 375 XL (26.5t) 89.1 Kph 15 Engine Heatsinks
to a 305 STD (26.5t) 72.5 Kph 12 Engine Heatsinks, it is exactly a 20% loss in engine heatsinks and a 20% loss in speed.

So yeah, this brings cXL engines into balance without making Standard engines OP.

Then give CXLs the ability to lose both STs and zombie...since being a STD engine after ST loss seems "balanced" to you...

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

Then give CXLs the ability to lose both STs and zombie...since being a STD engine after ST loss seems "balanced" to you...

Sure. And we'll also make them weigh twice as much...the part you keep missing?

[Gyrok]

Pjwned, on 29 March 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

If clans didn't have any top tier mechs like the timberwolf & stormcrow people would be screaming their lungs out about how PGI went too far nerfing the clans etc.

Many of the player base already is...

Just FYI, Clans are -44 planets over the weekend...

LOL @ "Clamz OP"

[Andi Nagasia]

we have to remember this is an FPS its not TT, some things cant wont translate,
a SCR(Shape HitBoxes Speed) woundnt be hurt as much as a NVA(Shape HitBoxes Speed),

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

Sure. And we'll also make them weigh twice as much...the part you keep missing?

No, you cannot mess with CXLs by giving them arbitrary penalties when there is no option to change anything.

Give me the option to run a CXL300 in a TW @ 72 kph and have 38 tons of pod space...I dare you...

IS mechs have that choice...Clans do not. So you cannot screw with that component without having a LARGE portion of the player base potentially leave

That large portion of the player base, just FYI, is spending crap tons of money on this game to buy those mechs too.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

Many of the player base already is...

Just FYI, Clans are -44 planets over the weekend...

LOL @ "Clamz OP"

those dont count be cause it doesnt support the Bias of Clan being OP,
sadly when i brought this up in another Topic that Clan lost lots, i was told L2P,

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

No, you cannot mess with CXLs by giving them arbitrary penalties when there is no option to change anything.

Give me the option to run a CXL300 in a TW @ 72 kph and have 38 tons of pod space...I dare you...

IS mechs have that choice...Clans do not. So you cannot screw with that component without having a LARGE portion of the player base potentially leave

That large portion of the player base, just FYI, is spending crap tons of money on this game to buy those mechs too.

ah, but it's ok for them to have arbitrary advantages the IS can't match. gotcha.

Andi Nagasia, on 29 March 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

those dont count be cause it doesnt support the Bias of Clan being OP,
sadly when i brought this up in another Topic that Clan lost lots, i was told L2P,

Really hard to tell anything definitive off of CW alone, since all it really says is which side had more people dropping. Especially on a challenge weekend where good portion of both factions are just point farming. (And *gasp* a lot of point farmers run clan tech) Which tends to lead to losses.

Be curious to see how CW stabilizes post challenge.

That, and TBH, I've been watching and fighting against certain Clan Units that were losing to PUGs.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 March 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[Mystere]

I have an idea. Stop playing clans, let the Clan portions of the CW map shrink back to the starting planets, and ask for wave 3 refunds. Hopefully the game sinks and Microsoft notices.








<runs for the hills>

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

Really hard to tell anything off of CW, since all it really says is which side had more people dropping.

Well, the fight for Ballynure was ridiculous today. For a few hours, the queue was 99+/99+. But, there were almost always 5 extra defending IS teams during most of that time.

Edited by Mystere, 29 March 2015 - 09:50 PM.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

ah, but it's ok for them to have arbitrary advantages the IS can't match. gotcha.


Really hard to tell anything definitive off of CW alone, since all it really says is which side had more people dropping. Especially on a challenge weekend where good portion of both factions are just point farming. (And *gasp* a lot of point farmers run clan tech) Which tends to lead to losses.

Be curious to see how CW stabilizes post challenge.

That, and TBH, I've been watching and fighting against certain Clan Units that were losing to PUGs.

It seems to be just f*cking fine that the IS has advantages the Clans do not...fail to see the logic there...?

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

It seems to be just f*cking fine that the IS has advantages the Clans do not...fail to see the logic there...?

Yup, because the IS has immortal XLs, 2 crit DHS, 7 Crit Endo, 7 Crit and stronger Ferro, Half Weight Missiles, Lighter Gauss, ER PPC, LB-10X, etc.....

Yup, IS has ALL the advantages.

Your histrionics hurt your cause far more than help.

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

No, you cannot mess with CXLs by giving them arbitrary penalties when there is no option to change anything.

It isn't arbitrary, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's arbitrary.

Quote

Give me the option to run a CXL300 in a TW @ 72 kph and have 38 tons of pod space...I dare you...

IS mechs have that choice...Clans do not.

You're missing the part where IS mechs don't have the option of running half weight engines that still function when a side torso is blown off, so that statement is not telling the whole story by any means. If IS mechs want to be (relatively) safe from side torso destruction then they are forced to equip much heavier standard engines.

I will say that clan mechs should have a choice for standard engines (and perhaps more options beyond that, such as engine size to an extent) after an appropriate extra penalty is added to to cXL engines though.

Quote

So you cannot screw with that component without having a LARGE portion of the player base potentially leave

That large portion of the player base, just FYI, is spending crap tons of money on this game to buy those mechs too.

People that throw a fit and leave over balance changes because they feel entitled to win for spending money are a plague, so good riddance.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 March 2015 - 10:36 PM.

[DANKnuggz]

If this nerf goes live I am pretty much done paying ANY money to this game. Why bother buying something only to have them nerf the hell out of it?? The real problems of balance come from the MAPS not the MECHS.... Each map favors certain weapon types rather than being large enough to have different areas favoring different weapons in each map... we fight in an incredibly small sand box given the size of these mechs and there is ZERO reason they cannot be larger given the fact that map detail is less than stellar. So why such small maps?? Some are decent size, such as Tourmaline, but many are rather small with little to no open area for longer range mechs (both IS and CL) to really make use of that extra range. Others are all mostly open space such as Caustic offering little to no cover from LRM fire unless you crowd up to the edge of the caldera and try to be the team that cores the other team from behind as they chase you in a circle....

Maps should be large enough to be multidimensional in regards to mech and weapon effectiveness... Having certain maps favor some loadouts over others is ok to an extent but the current maps favor some loadouts too much more than others which creates the imbalance we have in our battles... Clan tech is SUPPOSED to be smaller as IS versions of clan tech are all reverse engineered... adding yet another forced critical to clan mechs isn't gong to balance anything... I play both IS and CL mechs and honestly I hold my own in ALL of them once I figure out where my best range is and what ranges to avoid fighting at... Yes some are more difficult than others but if this game becomes so generic that there is little to no difference in the tech between IS and CL other than cosmetics, wtf is the point to staying with ANY of the errata or timeline???

After playing both IS and CL mechs I can honestly say that 90% of my bad match scores were caused by one of 2 things
1. My team was full of chuckleheads and we got steamrolled in a quick hurry.
2. I allowed myself to be caught out of position vs superior numbers, larger mech, or outmaneuvered by much faster mech.

Honestly I have a much easier time in my IS now due to the large quirks some of them get.... my 3 FS9s (was only going to keep 1 after unlocking elite but I like them all) can run up behind a DWF/WHK and put a huge hole in their back, sometimes killing them before they even realize I am there and attempt to turn. None of my clan mechs are nearly so capable in this respect. Even with XL engine in my IS mechs I still manage to match the output from most of my clan setups despite my increased engine vulnerability since my IS weapons are great for sustained output.... who cares how much my CL mech can do in 1 alpha if it leaves me 50%+ on heat and I cannot fire my weapons again for a long while or I shut down in the face of the mech I just blasted... My clan mechs all run VERY hot and require more care when piloting to avoid shutdown than my IS mechs do. Heat management dissipates heat over time but DOES NOT reduce the raw amount of heat produced by weapons in the first place so the extra heat produced balances the extra damage CL weapons do so over time they essentially have no advantages other than the ALPHA hail marry I hope I kill him with this attack. If that Alpha fails to kill my target I am then at the mercy of my heat bar and easy prey since I can hardly fire anything w/o risking shutdown for a time. Most IS pilots know this and take full advantage of it when they can. I hear many calling the TBR OP but this OPness does not stop IS mechs from storming right up on me blasting away the entire time. If it was so OP I'm sure most pilots would avoid it, yet they do not.

If this ST nerf goes through you might as well give up on the whole faction thing and just make us cookie cutter mechs so no one can cry about clan mechs having advantages that IS mechs don't have... Quirks have more than made up for the existing imbalance and in some cases with the right build, tipped the scale in the other direction. As I said it is map design that I causing all this imbalance due to lack of map size and varying terrain to allow for proper mixed mech tactics. Until the maps are fixed, only cookie cutter mechs can bring balance.... IS and CL tech becomes to similar and I will lose ALL interest in this game and will put my hard earned cash toward some other companies game... Screw getting nerfed, especially mechs I paid hard cash for, because PGI cannot come up with balanced map designs instead of nerfing.