124 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 18 March 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

I don't care.

Those are "Light mechs in Medium bodies".

You still play them like mediums anyways. It's not that much different.

Edit:
If you wanted to "fix that", even copying the lame Summoner +5% Speed increase would help mitigate that effect... as having Clan Lights slower than the Doomcrow is a mocking reminder of their uselessness.

Playing them like mediums is a moron's errand because mediums tend to be significantly more durable and depending on the build a bit more powerful.

The actual way to play them is like this:

[Lily from animove]

FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Keep in mind that 20% speed loss puts a speed tweaked Adder or Cute Fox at 87 kph. Just something to think about...

still not a ood idea, because an adder with basically what 5 DHS left and energy weapons on clan heat scale? you can also just die, would hardly change.

50% heat penalty and no speed penalty would be epic for ballistic builods, a mox for the tbr and a massive nerf for the lights/mediums, since they mostly rely on the too hot energyweapons.

blanket tweaks do not work because clanners differ way too much. Especially since many Clanners have fixed equip mking switchig to B weapons even more hard.

meanwhile we have people http://mwomercs.com/...40#entry4296540

I mean whats that? seriously, I would have plenty of ideas for a Zeus that I consider quite awesome. That is obviously a not so good pilot. But he is at least asking for help and not "QQ buff zeus clams OP." as many other IS pilots do. Why can't the rest of the IS not be like that? The majority is not even trying.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Playing them like mediums is a moron's errand because mediums tend to be significantly more durable and depending on the build a bit more powerful.

I know, but that's not saying anything new.

Let's just do the Wubhawk example... for a mental exercise:
WHK-C

27 DHS
4 LPL

When you lose a torso, you have 21 DHS left.

Under the current system (20% heat reduction):

21 DHS (10 trudub, 11 poordub)

(10 * 2 * .8) + (11 * 1.4 * .8)

16 + 12.32 = 38.32 (over 10 seconds) -> 3.832 heat cooled per second

Note: This value is applied before coolrun.


With 50% heat reduction...

21 DHS (10 trudub, 11 poordub)

(10 * 2 * .5) + (11 * 1.4 * .5)

10 + 7.7 = 17.7 (over 10 seconds) -> 1.77 heat cooled per second

Again, this is before coolrun is applied.

With the 2 LPL you have left generating 20 heat in total, you would only be able to fire both of them every 10 seconds (as I think doubled coolrun would allow that to occur reliably) before it is cooled when 50% heat penalty.

With the 2 LPL under the current system, you could fire them every 5 seconds (when coolrun is in play).

In essence (assuming my math is anywhere near correct), you are forcing Closed Beta SHS on all Clan Mechs, making them virtually ineffective as SHS once a side torso is lost.

[FupDup]

I did some maths on the Wubhawk with heatsink loss...

Build: WUBHAWK-PRIME

So let's pretend that we lost a side torso with the Wubhawk. Before we count any engine penalties, this means we lose 6 Poordubs and 2 Large Pulse Lasers. With an arbitrary penalty of, say, 50%, we also lose 6.5 dubs in the process (13 engine sinks total).

This totals out to about 12.5 dubs removed with the 2 LPL. I'll round up to 13 dubs because easiness. So, we go from 28 DHS stock to about 15 DHS with a side torso lost. Modeling this on the Warhawk is hard because of so many unremovable sinks, so I need to use a different mech...

Basically, our heat efficiency will be roughly approximate to a mech that uses 2 LPL and 15 total heatsinks. Like this... HEAT EFFICIENCY DEMONSTRATION


The lost weapons more than make up for the heatsink loss on this specific build. You're probably also a tad too fixated on the 50% number as if it's set in stone in the Book of Paul™. I'm just using the increased engine sink penalty as a compromise to avoid a basically legging a Clan mech with side torso loss...


EDIT: I forgot if the lost sinks from side torso loss are counted as Poordub loss or Trudub loss. If they are Trudubs getting lost, that means that the Wubhawk loses a total equivalent of about 15.3 Poordubs (6 Poordubs and 6.5 Trudubs). So, load up a blank Clan mech with 2 LPL and 12-13 DHS to model its new heat efficiency. Still not that bad. Smurfys would put it above 50% heat efficiency and below 53% (dunno exact because I can't add partial sinks).

Edited by FupDup, 18 March 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

The lost weapons more than make up for the heatsink loss on this specific build. You're probably also a tad too fixated on the 50% number as if it's set in stone in the Book of Paul™.

I'm not too fixated on the the 50% number, but the Book of Paul™ has trained me to become a Paulcomony miser at the very least.

Here's another way of looking at it... even if you disagree.

*cue Priceline negotiator voiceover*

Mist Lynx Simulator!

The best comparison you can run is the 1 med, 3 SSRM2 build.

Commando-equivalent:
COM-2D

Mist Lynx Edition:
MLX-B


Now, this isn't the best/most fair or even accurate comparison, but this will highlight more or less what you'd experience.

Also, it's best simulated on Mordor. Because... Mordor.

The Precious...

Edited by Deathlike, 18 March 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Revis Volek]

El Bandito, on 17 March 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

Anything wrong with my Dakka Whale not being able to kill a Light 1v1 at close range fight? CUAC5s simply spread damage too much.

And you still have not answered my question--since CW maps do allow the Clanners to stay at range. I will only be convinced if the Clanners actually abandon their meta gods and try other mechs vs. the IS mechs. But I know they wont. Gotta pick the cherry on top and call the rest trash.

In any case, quirk passes are coming to help them.

I do not run TBR's or DWF's at all in CW....I run the MDD, HBR's, ICF and WHK's so tell me some more about how we only use the 3 mechs....

But the ICF has never gotten more then 1 kill and 400 dmg in any CW match. So before you overgeneralize all of us why dont you take a look at my drop deck. If we had stats i would show you that i have taken TBR's, SCR's or DWF's into CW about a handful of times since i have obtained Star Colonel.


and the quirk passes you speak of did nothing...4% cooldown on the ERPPC's so the ADR prime over heats faster he did get some structure but nothing to help it fight better. Most of the other stuff was SRM and LRM grouping and overheat dmg reductions which do NOTHING to help the mech. Overheating in something that needs speed for life is a death sentence and should never happen or be quirked for it.

Edited by DarthRevis, 18 March 2015 - 11:08 AM.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 18 March 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

I'm not too fixated on the the 50% number, but the Book of Paul™ has trained me to become a Paulcomony miser at the very least.

Here's another way of looking at it... even if you disagree.

*cue Priceline negotiator voiceover*

Mist Lynx Simulator!

The best comparison you can run is the 1 med, 3 SSRM2 build.

Commando-equivalent:
COM-2D

Mist Lynx Edition:
MLX-B


Now, this isn't the best/most fair or even accurate comparison, but this will highlight more or less what you'd experience.

Also, it's best simulated on Mordor. Because... Mordor.

The Precious...

For that MLX...

Losing the right torso takes out 1 external Poordub and 3.5 engine dubs (engine only has 7 to begin with), and since 3.5 Trudubs sorta equals 5 Poordubs, that removes 6 Poordubs total. We have 2 Poordubs in the left torso and 3.5 Trudubs remaining in the engine, which gives a total of about 7 Poordubs left on the build. That equals more of less about 10 SHS (9.8 heat instead of 10.0, but close enough).

Losing the RT will also take out your ERML and SSRM2, leaving just 1 SSRM2 remaining. HEAT OF 1 SSRM2 WITH 10 SHS


Losing the LT will take out 2 external Poordubs and 3.5 Trudubs, aka about 7 Poordubs total. This leaves us with 1 Poordub in the RT and 3.5 Trudubs in the engine (same as 5 Poordubs). So, we have 6 Poordubs to manage the ERML and SSRM2. That's about 8.4 SHS, which can be rounded down to 8 or up to 9. The IS doesn't have any gun with the same heat efficiency as the ERML, so using 2 SPL is almost the same (1.45 HPS vs 1.46 HPS).

Rounded down: EQUIVALENT OF ERML + SSRM2 WITH 8 SHS
Rounded up: EQUIVALENT OF ERML + SSRM2 WITH 9 SHS

In the middle of them is betwwen 36% and 41% heat efficiency on Smurfy's scale.


Part of the issue here is that the MLX is punished by sub-250 engines by default, which compounds whatever number we use for the side torso penalty. Another reason WHY I HATE THAT ENGINE RULE.

Edited by FupDup, 18 March 2015 - 11:18 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

For that MLX...

Losing the right torso takes out 1 external Poordub and 3.5 engine dubs (engine only has 7 to begin with), and since 3.5 Trudubs sorta equals 5 Poordubs, that removes 6 Poordubs total. We have 2 Poordubs in the left torso and 3.5 Trudubs remaining in the engine, which gives a total of about 7 Poordubs left on the build. That equals more of less about 10 SHS (9.8 heat instead of 10.0, but close enough).

Losing the RT will also take out your ERML and SSRM2, leaving just 1 SSRM2 remaining. HEAT OF 1 SSRM2 WITH 10 SHS


Losing the LT will take out 2 external Poordubs and 3.5 Trudubs, aka about 7 Poordubs total. This leaves us with 1 Poordub in the RT and 3.5 Trudubs in the engine (same as 5 Poordubs). So, we have 6 Poordubs to manage the ERML and SSRM2. That's about 8.4 SHS, which can be rounded down to 8 or up to 9. The IS doesn't have any gun with the same heat efficiency as the ERML, so using 2 SPL is almost the same (1.45 HPS vs 1.46 HPS).

Rounded down: EQUIVALENT OF ERML + SSRM2 WITH 8 SHS
Rounded up: EQUIVALENT OF ERML + SSRM2 WITH 9 SHS

In the middle of them is betwwen 36% and 41% heat efficiency on Smurfy's scale.

It's still bad. You should actually run it. I did, and it reminded me why the sub-250 engines and SHS sucked.

I stopped considering the Commando-2D for anything after grinding that out. It was really painful, and worse now for obvious reasons.

[Lily from animove]

Deathlike, on 18 March 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

I know, but that's not saying anything new.

Let's just do the Wubhawk example... for a mental exercise:
WHK-C

27 DHS
4 LPL

When you lose a torso, you have 21 DHS left.

Under the current system (20% heat reduction):

21 DHS (10 trudub, 11 poordub)

(10 * 2 * .8) + (11 * 1.4 * .8)

16 + 12.32 = 38.32 (over 10 seconds) -> 3.832 heat cooled per second

Note: This value is applied before coolrun.


With 50% heat reduction...

21 DHS (10 trudub, 11 poordub)

(10 * 2 * .5) + (11 * 1.4 * .5)

10 + 7.7 = 17.7 (over 10 seconds) -> 1.77 heat cooled per second

Again, this is before coolrun is applied.

With the 2 LPL you have left generating 20 heat in total, you would only be able to fire both of them every 10 seconds (as I think doubled coolrun would allow that to occur reliably) before it is cooled when 50% heat penalty.

With the 2 LPL under the current system, you could fire them every 5 seconds (when coolrun is in play).

In essence (assuming my math is anywhere near correct), you are forcing Closed Beta SHS on all Clan Mechs, making them virtually ineffective as SHS once a side torso is lost.

and because of this every clanner would, if having the chance simply use a STD and sacrifice some 1.4 DHS for this nice little feature.

Some people throw out any idea not even thinking a bit further or even calculating some examples.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 18 March 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

It's still bad. You should actually run it. I did, and it reminded me why the sub-250 engines and SHS sucked.

I stopped considering the Commando-2D for anything after grinding that out. It was really painful, and worse now for obvious reasons.

I can't run it because I can't launch with fewer than 10 sinks.

Seriously though, the 50% thing was just a preemptive compromise to try to roughly match the significance of 20% speed nerf with a lower 10% speed nerf and "X" amount of increased heat penalty. It's mostly an appeasement to the lets-nerf-Clans brigade because m-m-m-muh precious speed.

10% also just seems like a nice round number because that just so happens to negate speed tweak.

[Accused]

Second thought, reserving this space lol

Edited by Accused, 18 March 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[Aiden Skye]

I was fully expecting this to turn into a flame war by now. I don't even...

[Deathlike]

W A R K H A N, on 18 March 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I was fully expecting this to turn into a flame war by now. I don't even...

Shocker.

Discussion can be had with cooler heads.

It's just Lostech with a lot of the noise.

[Averen]

Edit: I'd actually like too see another IS vs Clan day/weekend. Piloting a madcat or crow feels pretty damn easy, but having some numbers and eliminating personal bias (also mine) would be a good solution and would save us a lot of arguing.

Red1769, on 18 March 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

The Nova and Summoner need help though. More so on the Nova than the Summoner. I'd wish they'd start lower on the engine penalties and then see what happens. But otherwise, I agree with Gyrok. We need a more recent test than the one where it was 64% wins in favor of the Clans.

Maybe a lower ST loss penalty quirk for the nova?^^

Mind I've got crows mastered, still love my single nova and also have a Madcat.
But the Mechs hurting the most are, beside weaker clanners, atm also a lot of non meta IS-mechs, which couldn't be elevated by quirks. There are a lot of models and more fun variants which would just desintegrate when facing a madcat, many are even weak against summoners/novas. IS variety suffered the most by the arms race to somehow get along.

IMO its most important to get the Madcat/Crow/Hellbringer a bit closer to IS-Levels, and that's what an engine loss penalty might do. After that fix, the clan/IS balance might be good enough to get a measurement what to do about the weaker clanners like nova and summoner.
Tbh, I don't think the nova can be fully fixed tho. It's just the hitbox size.

Quote

As far as your list goes, I'd include the King Crab and Dire Wolf as equals. Aside from a couple of joke builds on either side, both compare quite well, though the King Crab is better for brawling due to better torso twist.

Afaik the Dire is a bit stronger DPS-wise when it comes to comparing the uac-variants. He also has some very efficient long range builds including lasers which seem pretty powerful. Truth be told, I have no clue where to put the AC40 crabs, where the higher engine limit and torso twisting comes into place. Not my style, I'd rather take my 24ASRM/AC20 Atlas for close combat, but that's just me.^^'

But yeah, crab is definitively close to dires, they wreck face. Might be on the same level or even a bit better when some more substantial clan torso penalty comes around.

Edited by Averen, 18 March 2015 - 01:20 PM.

[Pjwned]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 March 2015 - 01:35 AM, said:

I mean this from the bottom of my heart. **** Steam.

Oh boo-hoo, cry about losing the status quo more please.

[Red1769]

Averen, on 18 March 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

Edit: I'd actually like too see another IS vs Clan day/weekend. Piloting a madcat or crow feels pretty damn easy, but having some numbers and eliminating personal bias (also mine) would be a good solution and would save us a lot of arguing.

Maybe a lower ST loss penalty quirk for the nova?^^

Mind I've got crows mastered, still love my single nova and also have a Madcat.
But the Mechs hurting the most are, beside weaker clanners, atm also a lot of non meta IS-mechs, which couldn't be elevated by quirks. There are a lot of models and more fun variants which would just desintegrate when facing a madcat, many are even weak against summoners/novas. IS variety suffered the most by the arms race to somehow get along.

IMO its most important to get the Madcat/Crow/Hellbringer a bit closer to IS-Levels, and that's what an engine loss penalty might do. After that fix, the clan/IS balance might be good enough to get a measurement what to do about the weaker clanners like nova and summoner.
Tbh, I don't think the nova can be fully fixed tho. It's just the hitbox size.

Afaik the Dire is a bit stronger DPS-wise when it comes to comparing the uac-variants. He also has some very efficient long range builds including lasers which seem pretty powerful. Truth be told, I have no clue where to put the AC40 crabs, where the higher engine limit and torso twisting comes into place. Not my style, I'd rather take my 24ASRM/AC20 Atlas for close combat, but that's just me.^^'

But yeah, crab is definitively close to dires, they wreck face. Might be on the same level or even a bit better when some more substantial clan torso penalty comes around.

Idk about the Hellbringer...I think it's actually good where it's at. Agreed on the No-Va...can't be completely fixed...but with some tinkering for heat gen quirks and maybe also some JJ quirks, it might just edge out to being equal to the Cent., maybe provide the Enforcer some competition.

Not really sure on the IS diversity...I mean, there are one or two mechs I never see *looks at the Vindicator*. Otherwise I see a good mix in all weight classes on the IS side. Aside from the very occasional Myth Lynx, I just don't see Gargles and Ice Ferrets. Maybe it's just where I'm at in the Elo rack for my assaults, since I haven't played my Shawks in forever.

To me, it's really just the Crow and Timberwolf, and even some of that can be attributed to funky hitboxes and hoverjet animations, though not all of it. It was a while ago, but when I brought mine out, I didn't see the hype. I only have my Dire Whales elited, then been working on my Warhawks and playing around in my Misery.

I'm one of those wait and see how it plays out on this whole engine thing. But as a whole, I'm worried how it will effect the Peacedove and Dire Whale, along with the current underperformers...especially my beloved Whales

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

yeha they need long term public tests, and divide is/clan for like 4 days inncluding weekend to get some proper data. anything else is juts no proper data.

And once Clans come out on top again, you will still cry that "No, it is the IS pilots that suck!"

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 18 March 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

And once Clans come out on top again, you will still cry that "No, it is the IS pilots that suck!"

Well....when I did my tests, half the team did consistently fail to get 200 damage.

200 is a number anyone should be able to get in the PUG LIFE. Yet, of course, they didn't.


Clams were only about 30% terribad, as opposed to a tad over 50%.



Is the PUG LIFE really a place to do meaningful testing?

[Zoid]

W A R K H A N, on 17 March 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

- I still don't see the point of clan lights. Might as well take a stormcrow and be almost as fast.

This is hilarious, you are describing exactly what's OP about the clans, namely the SCR and TBR. The SCR moves like a light and has the firepower of a heavy, the TBR moves like a medium and has the firepower of an assault.

You're so mired in your thinking that you don't realize the SCR being so much better than the clan lights means something is wrong with the SCR. Clan lights aren't great but the simple fact that you don't need them because the Stormcrow and Timberwolf are so fast while packing major firepower should tell you something.


I'm not a fan of blanket nerfs for the clans either, but it's due to these two 'mechs. Until they get toned down into something reasonable, the clans are going to eat nerf after nerf.

Edited by Zoid, 18 March 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Zoid, on 18 March 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

This is hilarious, you are describing exactly what's OP about the clans, namely the SCR and TBR. The SCR moves like a light and has the firepower of a heavy, the TBR moves like a medium and has the firepower of an assault.

You're so mired in your thinking that you don't realize the SCR being so much better than the clan lights means something is wrong with the SCR. Clan lights aren't great but the simple fact that you don't need them because the Stormcrow and Timberwolf are so fast while packing major firepower should tell you something.


I'm not a fan of blanket nerfs for the clans either, but it's due to these two 'mechs. Until they get toned down into something reasonable, the clans are going to eat nerf after nerf.

Actually, it's because of the construction rules the Lights are forced to follow...mainly, stock stuff.

Thankfully, they all come with Ferro and Endo. Unfortunately, they are still poorly optimised. Full of PoorDubs and small engines.


Mist Lynx could move 160 with 4 cLasers if it weren't restricted, while still having a full (or nearly full) compliment of JumpJets.


Mechlab kills the mechs, while, if you notice, the mechs that are taken are generally not terribly over or under engined. Just marginally. TimberGod would probably choose a 350 instead, gaining 5.5 tons with the 5th DHS gone. Crow could move to a 300 and save 4 tons, while still moving at 97(pre speed tweak current speed).
Those tons are less important though, since they still have Endo+Ferro and excellent hardpoints and hitboxes.

Unlike the majority of the Clam selection. Woefully underengined lights, with some terribly overengined mechs. Fridge and Mr Gargles being a big victim there.

Then comes hardwired equipment. TimberWolf only has the 5 DHS, which all fit in the engine, and would be taken anyways. Crow has absolutely no fixed equipment.

Nova has 4 external DHS and no Endo (you could easily upgrade to Endo, a 300XL and lose a half ton and 3 crit slots, or drop to 4 JJs and only lose 2 crit slots).
Lynx has the AP in the head, which costs a lot more on a small robot.


Mechlab nerfs the bad robots, while blanket nerfs try to reign in the least bad ones, it just hurts the Terribad ones even more.