258 replies to this topic

[Spetulhu]

MaxFool, on 13 December 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Doesn't even matter which team is clan and which IS, it's about which one is organized and which one has random skittles.

Pretty much this. And if it's a 12-man unit team they can also coordinate mechs for their drop decks before even joining the queue. 12 jumpers guaranteed instead of the random amount random guys 1-12 brought, for example. Or "take your heaviest brawler for the push" - the randoms will have random stuff, the unit will probably have 12 best-in-slot mechs.

Still, part of the damage could be from clan 12mans doing objective rushes (I played IS and not in a team that did such) and giving up 1-2 waves of easy kills. A Timberwolf is a fearsome mech when it's shooting you, but I remember killing two in the same game with exactly two pointblank 6 ML alphas into the rear CT. That's a kill and 30 damage.

edit: oh, and notice the clans also did more team damage? The longer burn time on clan lasers mentioned earlier could have something to do with that (and the damage in general). Spray and pray.

Edited by Spetulhu, 13 December 2015 - 07:45 AM.

[Wing 0]

I wouldn't be surprised that if all the comp teams decided to go and fight for an I.S faction and not fighting clans and all they would do is start invading parts of the I.S hurting you guys with your structure buffed mechs to such a nasty extent. If that happens guess what. You will complain so much and It will be told here on the forums. I know several groups would like to eat your hearts out and they know they can beat the crap out of you I.S teams.

Edited by Wing 0, 13 December 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[Drunk Canuck]

Here is an interesting little fact.

Every IS Mech saw structure and/or armor buffs from the balance pass. Clan Mech's out damaged IS significantly, but it is outright harder to kill a lot of IS Mech's now, so damage numbers are significantly inflated. I had 2K+ games with ease during the event, and players running Atlas don't realize but those things eat up damage for breakfast and you can inflate your damage score by stripping them down with their standard engines. When they have well over 100 points between armor and structure per component, it is pretty easy to farm 500 damage on an Atlas by yourself.

[Drunk Canuck]

Spetulhu, on 13 December 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

Pretty much this. And if it's a 12-man unit team they can also coordinate mechs for their drop decks before even joining the queue. 12 jumpers guaranteed instead of the random amount random guys 1-12 brought, for example. Or "take your heaviest brawler for the push" - the randoms will have random stuff, the unit will probably have 12 best-in-slot mechs.

Still, part of the damage could be from clan 12mans doing objective rushes (I played IS and not in a team that did such) and giving up 1-2 waves of easy kills. A Timberwolf is a fearsome mech when it's shooting you, but I remember killing two in the same game with exactly two pointblank 6 ML alphas into the rear CT. That's a kill and 30 damage.

edit: oh, and notice the clans also did more team damage? The longer burn time on clan lasers mentioned earlier could have something to do with that (and the damage in general). Spray and pray.

I don't think we ever organize our teams in CW unless we are IS, then we just have people drop a couple of ECM Mech's because Clan skittles like to run LRMs. Mech choices are hardly a debilitating factor for Clans, but the TBR, EBJ and HBR are still the holy trinity for Clans.

[Hotthedd]

Zolaz, on 11 December 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

So the IS got an extra 120 tons a drop and did less damage to the opposing team and their own team. When the IS brings Assaults and Clan Heavies out damage and out kill the IS ... yep it must be Clan are LEET pilots. 2^[]D34 \-337

I see that stat as meaning the Clans did more damage simply because there was more potential damage to DO.

Edited by Hotthedd, 13 December 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[demoyn]

Monkey Lover, on 13 December 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

I just can't see anyone taking a BJ over a crow. My Crow can alpha larger than assault mechs. It i can run in one arm more lasers than the Bj and still have streaks to kill any light.

You can run more than eight lasers in one arm on the stormcrow? Please link that build. I want it.

[nehebkau]

Why do we still have this debate?

To put it simply:

Yes clan mechs are better, they are better because they have clan xl engines and free case. Clan mechs are better and it is why the competitive teams use clan mechs in their drops. We knew clan mecs were going to be better from the very beginning.

That having been said, weapon systems are, for the most part, the most balanced that they have been in a very long time.

Accept that if you are playing IS that you are a little behind the 8-ball and need to play better.


EDIT: And don't white-knight me because you fail in reading comprehension. I said better not OP, clan mecs aren't over-powered they are just slightly better than IS mechs and in this game slightly ahead often steamrolls into way ahead when dealing with the average player group.

EDIT2:
If the fact that clan mechs are better is bothersome enough to affect your enjoyment of the game, go join the clan side.

Edited by nehebkau, 13 December 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[LeeNTien]

nehebkau, on 13 December 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Yes clan mechs are better, they are better because they have clan xl engines and free case.

Not anymore.

And people who point at the damage done by clans vs IS extra weight - you don't think that's THE reason for the extra damage? Those extra 10 t. meaning tougher mechs + all those extra structure HP - there you go. Clans do more damage because IS have more HP.
While the disparity in mechs destroyed is only 6.5 thousand - 1 mech-kill per clan player.

Edited by LeeNTien, 13 December 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[nehebkau]

LeeNTien, on 13 December 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Not anymore.

Since you have no clue I will spell it out:

Why clan XL engines make clan mechs slightly better:
1. Clan XL engines do not explode when you loose a torso giving you slightly more time to keep fighting

• A longer time in battle = more damage
  
• A longer time in battle = more damage absorbed and not put on a healthy team-mate = team-mate living slightly longer = team mate can do more damage.

2. Clan XL engines are lighter than IS standard engines allowing for more weapons or ammunition to be loaded

• More weapons = more damage.
  
• More ammo = more damage.
  
• More weapon variety = more opportunity to do damage at different ranges.

3. Clan mechs of the same type run at the exact same speed making it easier to keep a push together

• that gives you the benefit of more focused fire
  
• that gives you the benefit of more mechs to share the damage
  
• that makes it slightly easier to coordinate movements

4. Clan CASE allows clan mechs to carry 1/2 ton more ammo and spread out ammo across the entire mech.

• more ammo = more damage
  
• spreading ammo across a mech = less chance of losing ammo to lost body part = more opportunity to do more damage.

YES all of these are little things but they make clan mechs slightly better in CW and more pronounced as you go to lighter chassis. We all know, in this game, that a little advantage can quickly become a big advantage with the right application of skill and timing.

Now, please stop trying to protect the clan advantage by denying that it isn't there simply because you are afraid of all the IS QQs (and IS people stop your complaining -- sheesh!) leading to a nerf. The advantage isn't big enough to warrant a nerf and it is supposed to be there -- they are, after all, more technically advanced. Generally if you are being slaughtered (stomped) by a clan unit its just because they are playing better than you and if you are having problems with the Arctic Cheetah its because you are not shooting at its legs.

Truth is I don't care that clan mechs are better. I have all the clan mechs and most (except DWFs -- which i hate with a passion) are mastered and I play IS in CW because I want to and I accept that a 5% advantage just means I have to play 10% better.

Edited by nehebkau, 13 December 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[Sandpit]

SovietArmada, on 13 December 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

Oh no i was just commenting on the Cheeta, in terms of IS vs Clan balance, Clans are still superior. Has the gap decreased? Absolutely, by a good margin since day one.

Is the gap still wide enough that it's a balance issue? Yes.

The problem with saying difference in skill is a bad argument, because it's easy for me to say if two evenly skilled teams in every aspect go at it, the Clan side will win.

This is where opinions come in. You seem like you want an actual discussion on balance as opposed to arguing "your side". Start posting in some of the actual constructive threads and lets talk balance
I just don't see it as being an issue anymore. Maybe it's because I've never really seen them as "OP" and with the recently nerfs they feel even better in terms of balance.

The first thing most want to do is recite math. Math is well and good, but math does not give you a complete picture. I have mechs that "on paper" don't look "good" to a lot of people here, with that said, I personally do really well in them because they fit my play style.

Cheetah hitboxes on legs are really the only issue I see with them at the moment. You take away their ECM and they melt rather quickly just like most lights.

[Sandpit]

nehebkau, on 13 December 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Since you have no clue I will spell it out:

Why clan XL engines make clan mechs slightly better:
1. Clan XL engines do not explode when you loose a torso giving you slightly more time to keep fighting

• A longer time in battle = more damage
  
• A longer time in battle = more damage absorbed and not put on a healthy team-mate = team-mate living slightly longer = team mate can do more damage.

2. Clan XL engines are lighter than IS standard engines allowing for more weapons or ammunition to be loaded

• More weapons = more damage.
  
• More ammo = more damage.
  
• More weapon variety = more opportunity to do damage at different ranges.

3. Clan mechs of the same type run at the exact same speed making it easier to keep a push together

• that gives you the benefit of more focused fire
  
• that gives you the benefit of more mechs to share the damage
  
• that makes it slightly easier to coordinate movements

4. Clan CASE allows clan mechs to carry 1/2 ton more ammo and spread out ammo across the entire mech.

• more ammo = more damage
  
• spreading ammo across a mech = less chance of losing ammo to lost body part = more opportunity to do more damage.

YES all of these are little things but they make clan mechs slightly better in CW and more pronounced as you go to lighter chassis. We all know, in this game, that a little advantage can quickly become a big advantage with the right application of skill and timing.

Now, please stop trying to protect the clan advantage by denying that it isn't there simply because you are afraid of all the IS QQs (and IS people stop your complaining -- sheesh!) leading to a nerf. The advantage isn't big enough to warrant a nerf and it is supposed to be there -- they are, after all, more technically advanced. Generally if you are being slaughtered (stomped) by a clan unit its just because they are playing better than you and if you are having problems with the Arctic Cheetah its because you are not shooting at its legs.

Truth is I don't care that clan mechs are better. I have all the clan mechs and most (except DWFs -- which i hate with a passion) are mastered and I play IS in CW because I want to and I accept that a 5% advantage just means I have to play 10% better.

certain IS mechs have advantages in those areas as well though. What you're talking about isn't clan balance really, it's CW and drop deck balance. CW is where you most often see these mechs and such in large coordinated numbers. 12 Cheetahs (as 12 coordinated mechs of any class will be) are a b*tch to deal with. 2-3 not so much.

So why not just restrict drop decks to have no more than 1 of each weight class, no more than 3 chassis per wave (if someone else already selected that chassis and you're out of slots, tough, take yours at a later wave unless it's the final wave of course, in that case you simply delay the reinforcement one tick unless it's under a specific time limit like the last 3 minutes of the match or some such.

You just eliminated those 12 chassis pushes like cheetah waves, and created a lot more diversity on each wave that required zero balancing of weapons and mechs themselves.

It's time to look at other areas of the game to help balance it. IS and Clan are pretty well balanced with a few exceptions in my opinion

[Spetulhu]

Oh, one more thing I came to think of - ejecting from a mech. I did a good part of the Tukayyid event in a group but only once did a drop leader actually order people to eject from damaged or out-of-ammo mechs. We were defending Grim Portico against a pretty tough group and having full firepower for their last wave was more important than maybe keeping that poor 55% TDR alive.

But clan units did this quite often as I recall, if there was heavy fighting you might see 3-4 "has ejected" messages as they went for a fresh mech. If it was just out of ammo that's a whole lot of damage we didn't get to do to them! And ofc, they could do more damage in fresh machine...

Edited by Spetulhu, 13 December 2015 - 11:03 PM.

[Sandpit]

Spetulhu, on 13 December 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

Oh, one more thing I came to think of - ejecting from a mech. I did a good part of the Tukayyid event in a group but only once did a drop leader actually order people to eject from damaged or out-of-ammo mechs. We were defending Grim Portico against a pretty tough group and having full firepower for their last wave was more important than maybe keeping that poor 55% TDR alive.

But clan units did this quite often as I recall, if there was heavy fighting you might see 3-4 "has ejected" messages as they went for a fresh mech. If it was just out of ammo that's a whole lot of damage we didn't get to do to them! And ofc, they could do more damage in fresh machine...

It';s a tactical decision. If you can run out and scout and get an arty or UAV off and make them waste ammo on you, that's much better than just ejecting. Every shot they fire at you, is a shot they're not firing on a fresh mech, then you reinforce. Never just eject simply because you want a fresh mech.

[Vxheous]

Sandpit, on 13 December 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

It';s a tactical decision. If you can run out and scout and get an arty or UAV off and make them waste ammo on you, that's much better than just ejecting. Every shot they fire at you, is a shot they're not firing on a fresh mech, then you reinforce. Never just eject simply because you want a fresh mech.

This. I almost always suicide scout simply because:

1. It delays attackers a little bit when they have to stop regroup to kill you, giving defenders time to reset their defensive lines.

2. Any damage I do in my damaged mech that far out of the base against fresh mechs is less damage I have to do in a full fresh mech once they come back into the base, meaning my mechs/wave should last longer than opponents mech/wave.

[Valar13]

Sandpit, on 13 December 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

It';s a tactical decision. If you can run out and scout and get an arty or UAV off and make them waste ammo on you, that's much better than just ejecting. Every shot they fire at you, is a shot they're not firing on a fresh mech, then you reinforce. Never just eject simply because you want a fresh mech.

Unless you know you're about to get hit hard in the next wave and you need people out of the machines being held together by duct tape and prayers quickly.

[Lily from animove]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

2+2 is equaling 5 here guys.... By all of your accounts the IS mechs have more armor and are harder to kill.... Yet Clans won.... with the same damage weapons available to the IS. This does not compute. A 12 man IS according to your statements should be able to stomp any clan 12 man regardless of skill due to an unbalanced armor amount. If you are saying that the majority of all IS players are lacking skill and for that reason alone you won then I would totally agree but, the simple fact is they are just as skilled as the lot of you. I find it funny how a game like MWO Is a "skill based" game when there are no compensations for lag like in previous games (some of you know to which I speak of) and instead is a simple point and click based game.

It is for this reason that I can not wait for Solaris.

yes funny, isn't it, it took more damasge on average to kill a IS mech than a clanmech. compared to tuk 1. Further Clanemchs weren't buffed since tuk 1. IS mechs were. Now IS still lost. How can it be, that now after clanners have not revceived buffs but the IS did, in total did a better job compared to tuk 1?


answer: it's not the technical balance behind the game, it's reasons outside of that.

if you call stuff whiteknighting that does not agree with your opinion, wow seriosuly? totally valid base for objectively analysing statistics.



I wonder if said experiment of some current large Wolf groups going to IS is true, but I would love them doing so just to reveal how the "balance" as some claim is not even an reason for it. Current IS mechs are capable of doing more given you play those mechs correctly.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 December 2015 - 04:57 AM.

[Curccu]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 12 December 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

And I refuse to believe that those damage numbers are solely based on player skill. Get over your selves.

You know bigger damage isn't actually same thing as better player/mech/tech?
If you drill straight through CT against every enemy you will do less damage but you are way better player than some other player who spreads his damage all over enemy mech.

[Monkey Lover]

demoyn, on 13 December 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

You can run more than eight lasers in one arm on the stormcrow? Please link that build. I want it.

I was thinking 6 because i was looking at the bj1dc.. I still run 7 lasers counting the one in the head and you still have 3 more pods to use lol

[Jon Gotham]

nehebkau, on 13 December 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Since you have no clue I will spell it out:

Why clan XL engines make clan mechs slightly better:
1. Clan XL engines do not explode when you loose a torso giving you slightly more time to keep fighting

• A longer time in battle = more damage
  
• (more damage is irelevent unless mechs are dying, clanners are almost crippled on side torso loss now. We can run STD engines 0 penalty apart from missing weps+our stuff is more efficient in damage application per shot than theirs is)
  
• A longer time in battle = more damage absorbed and not put on a healthy team-mate = team-mate living slightly longer = team mate can do more damage.
  
• (again sort of see your point but we can do that better. Plus once again, our damage application is more efficient than theirs-we take less time per kill than they do-out stuff is considerably shorter duration-that REALLY matters vs good players)

2. Clan XL engines are lighter than IS standard engines allowing for more weapons or ammunition to be loaded

• More weapons = more damage.
  
• (untrue. More weapons means more ludicrous heat means less actual shots, plus remember clan weps are very inefficient per contact window)
  
• More ammo = more damage.
  
• (Sort of agree but that also means more spread next to useless damage. We want pin point on target get-the-mech-dead-now damage , not loz I didz 3k rofl style)
  
• More weapon variety = more opportunity to do damage at different ranges.
  
• (Not really as they have same general spread as us, but SOME of them have a bit better range-plus don't forget our quirks.....big game changer they are)

3. Clan mechs of the same type run at the exact same speed making it easier to keep a push together

• that gives you the benefit of more focused fire
  
• that gives you the benefit of more mechs to share the damage
  
• that makes it slightly easier to coordinate movements
  
• (Agree here, it is a big plus..but then why do so many Is pilots run their mechs slow? When they can go faster....)

4. Clan CASE allows clan mechs to carry 1/2 ton more ammo and spread out ammo across the entire mech.

• more ammo = more damage
  
• spreading ammo across a mech = less chance of losing ammo to lost body part = more opportunity to do more damage.
  
• (Agree it is an edge but disagree that always means more damage, insane heat remember? You can't dps if your mech runs hotter than your opponent's does. He'll fire more often than you, with less wastage than you meaning your extra ammo is worthless as you'll be dead before him.)

I'm an Sphere player here and from my time playing I cannot agree that the Sphere mechs are worse, I just can't. It's staring us in the face if we care to use our quirks to their fullest advantage.......
If you can:
Fire more often
With less "wastage"-shorter duration weapons
Be able to twist sooner per contact time
And have quirks to make your mech tougher....
Why would you think you are weaker?

[Khobai]

Its a well known fact that clan players are the more experienced players. Clans have way more units as well as veteran players who have been playing the game for years.

Obviously IS and Clan tech still isnt perfectly balanced either. But the disparity is primarily caused by a player skill imbalance. PGI needs to do something to get more experienced players to go back to playing IS.

What do you offer players that already have everything? Obviously upping cbill rewards for IS factions isnt going to fix the problem because veteran players dont need cbills. What they need to do is add new weapons and equipment for the IS factions. Experienced players would then switch back to use the new stuff. Instead they did the opposite with the IIC mechs... which is just going to lead to more clan players.

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2015 - 08:39 AM.