258 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

LeeNTien, on 15 December 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

I don't think, that calling IIC "Clan" is fair. Or to compare them with the current IS or Clan mechs. They are IS mechs with Clan tech, and I'm quite sure, that if they turn out to bee totally unbalanced - negative quirks will follow.

That depends, what do you think is more likely, they hotfix a nerf like they did for the Blackjack, or they let it sit until the next balance patch like they did for the Arctic Cheetah.

[Adamski]

Stefka Kerensky, on 15 December 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Really?
Ok, so thanks to this equations I have no doubts you are trolling

Thanks to this post, I know that you are trolling me, since you cut part of my post out when you quoted it to specifically remove the context from the rest of the post.

[Dawnstealer]

Smotty, on 12 December 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

1k dmg is nothing in CW. Most of the top players do that with their 1st mech. (If I don't do 1k in my 1st mech I feel like a scrub) Most members of my unit (when grouped in small numbers) pull 2-3k or more dmg in CW. (One of our guys recently broke 5k for the 1st time playing solo) It does depend on how bad the pugs on your team suck though...

The clans had the better units and pilots, and with the IS structure buffs it also meant more dmg to farm.

So in short, skill was the major factor.

Eh - it comes down a lot more to teamwork, but Clan mechs are the deciding factor. In my own experience dropping in 12-mans, solo, and everything in between, the games go like this:

Clan PUG v IS PUG: 75% Clan win
Clan Prebuilt v IS PUG: 90% Clan win
Clan Prebuilt v IS Prebuilt: 60% Clan win
Clan PUG v IS Prebuilt: 75% IS win

In short, Clans will win 3/4ths of engagements, all other things being equal. Just the nature of the maps and the fact that the game terrain usually favors longer range (I'd love to see the stats for Boreal Vault, for example, with Clans defending and IS attacking).

And stop with the comparisons between the Raven and ACH, unless you're laughing as you do it. The ACH has broken hitboxes and while most of us IS players have gotten wise to the fact that even beet-red, the CT is well-nigh invincible: aim legs. In fact, aim legs on anything TBR or lighter unless you're a good shot (I usually pop the shoulders on TBRs and especially Ebon Jags since you can face tank with one for about two seconds with UAC10 build that's so popular).

Clan mechs just do way more damage, and at greater range, than the vast majority of IS mechs.

To the next point, this is the way it SHOULD be. Clan mechs SHOULD be overpowered. That was the whole point of the Clans.

The catch is that "overpowered" isn't a lot of fun to play against, which is why you continually get these whining threads and the inevitable defensive "learn to play, noob" responses.

As I've said elsewhere many times (and might have in this post, I can't remember), I wish PGI would have balanced that superior range with greater damage on the IS side. So if an IS mech could get close, their weapons would do more damage. Full stop.

So no longer burn times, higher heat, cooldown times, etc. A Clan ERLL would do 7 points of damage at a longer range with a shallower drop-off, an IS ERLL would do 9 points of damage at a shorter range with a steeper drop-off.

Would it work? No idea. Works in my brain, though.

And also the IS is clearly losing these things because we don't have a Hatchetman.

[SkippyT72]

[

The IS got massive structure quirks and can tank more damage than a clan mech and that's not even counting the weapon quirks that are still on the BEST IS mechs. Clan Mechs are hotter, have had thier range advantage everyone screams about shortened yet here we are on another "NERF THE CLANS" thread because the simple fact that MOST of better teams played for the Clan side, I've found 4 unit's that recorded matches that went from IS to Clan or vice versa, of the 4 1 Unit did better in IS than Clan by about 5%, 2 did much better on the clan side, but they also played alot more games on the clan side and one team did 2% better in the Clans than in IS, the info is posted below, if I've missed anymore unit's that switched let me know, I did not see anymore but there may be some.

Unit Name Unit Tag Current Members Players Played Total Matches Total Wins Total Match Score Faction Win % 66th Avalon Hussars 66AH 78 26 261 67 57152 FRR 25.67049808 66th Avalon Hussars 66AH 78 26 261 54 57152 CSJ 20.68965517 7th GREEN LIONS GRLN 25 15 266 46 43423 CSJ 17.29323308 7th GREEN LIONS GRLN 25 15 266 41 43423 HK 15.41353383 Marine-Mechs MM 43 21 296 124 83793 CGB 41.89189189 Marine-Mechs MM 43 21 296 34 83793 MRK 11.48648649 New Texas NTEX 225 64 960 256 184221 CGB 26.66666667 New Texas NTEX 225 64 960 102 184221 HK 10.625

Edited by SkippyT72, 15 December 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Adamski]

PGI also nerfed all 4 Thunderbolts and the Stalker-4N, ALL OF THEM. No counter buff of structure or armor, just straight up nerfs. Making that 3 patches of nerfs for the Thunderbolts and Stalker since the first Tukayyid.

Edited by Adamski, 15 December 2015 - 03:10 PM.

[Wing 0]

WOW you guys are sill bitching about clans being op still. GUESS WHAT! YOU CANT HANDLE IT!

[AlphaToaster]

I've been running IS mechs in solo queue since the changes, and I'm noticing that the SRMs are pretty brutal right now. They're really strong up close. Since CW starts pretty far away, there's only a few situations where you can use them without getting all shot up. So one of the best close range brawling choices now, isn't as viable in CW without careful preplanning.

IS mechs need to brawl Clan mechs to beat them or lean on range quirks.

Clan mechs aren't OP, it's just easier to sit back and win in them IF the opponent lets you. There's the caveat, IF the opponent lets you.

Two passive opponents face each other, one in clan mech, one in IS mech, unless that IS mech is one of the quirked chosen few, the clan mech will have the range advantage. Meaning it's on the IS pilot to be aggressive and push on the clanner.

And here we are.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 15 December 2015 - 05:09 PM.

[demoyn]

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Really?

ACH = SDR
SCR = GRF / SHD / WVR / KTO / etc
EBJ = TDR / JM6
TBR = BL-KNT / OR1
WHK = STK / BLR
DWF = AS7 / KGC

Now that the IIC mechs are released, you have a 35t and a 50t as well. The only mech that doesn't have an easy 1:1 tonnage equivalent is the 45t Blackjack trying to match with a 45t SHC (one is designed as a brawler, the other as a hyper mobile harass)

This is what you think the "best mechs" are? Well I see the problem now... you just don't understand the basics of the game.

The only one of those that even comes close to what I talked about is the SCR vs. GRF matchup, and the GRF-3M with 4 SRMs is significantly better than the SCR with 4 SRMs (mostly because of jump jets and laser range).

Hell, just look at the range tier list right now. The best 750+ range mech is the STK-3H, the best 500-750 range is TBR, the best 250-500 range is BJ-3, the best 0-250 is the GRF-3M, and the best scout is the ACH. Thet's 3 IS mechs to 2 Clan mechs.

I don't know what orifice you're pulling all of your arguments out of, but they smell pretty bad. You should probably just stop.

Dawnstealer, on 15 December 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

And stop with the comparisons between the Raven and ACH, unless you're laughing as you do it.

Oh, I'm laughing when I post comparisons between the RVN and ACH, but it's not because of the comparison. It's because of how clueless the arguments against it are.

[Adamski]

demoyn, on 15 December 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

This is what you think the "best mechs" are? Well I see the problem now... you just don't understand the basics of the game.

The only one of those that even comes close to what I talked about is the SCR vs. GRF matchup, and the GRF-3M with 4 SRMs is significantly better than the SCR with 4 SRMs (mostly because of jump jets and laser range).

Hell, just look at the range tier list right now. The best 750+ range mech is the STK-3H, the best 500-750 range is TBR, the best 250-500 range is BJ-3, the best 0-250 is the GRF-3M, and the best scout is the ACH. Thet's 3 IS mechs to 2 Clan mechs.

I don't know what orifice you're pulling all of your arguments out of, but they smell pretty bad. You should probably just stop.



Oh, I'm laughing when I post comparisons between the RVN and ACH, but it's not because of the comparison. It's because of how clueless the arguments against it are.

Please, post this GRF-3M build that has great laser range with 4x SRM4 and decent jumping all at the same time.

The STK-3H has 4 energy hardpoints and 15% energy range, which gives it 5% more range than a Clan ERLL.
I bet Clan mechs like the WHK move a whole lot more than 5% faster than a STK. (in fact, the WHK goes 10% faster, can fit 4x cERLL and has a 4% reduced heat quirk compared to the STK-3H 10%, and can fit 30 DHS to the STK-3H max of 24 (25% more DHS)). The WHK also has a larger torso twist even though the STK-3H has a quirk to increase its torso twist.

Maybe you should actually look at mech builds, instead of relying on someone elses tier lists to make your opinion for you.

Edited by Adamski, 15 December 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[Belkor]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

lol Only took 3 minutes for my post to get knighted and boy was that a whopper. So your basicly saying that most of the IS players SUCK and that we just take longer to kill ... lol

You are clearly clueless on reading the stats as it clearly points out how much the competitive groups are contributing. Yes, IS players did suck more than clans seeing how clans had more of the competitive groups than IS. The fact that you're trying to ignore this along with the IS structure buffs shows how you're desperately trying to grasp for straws.

Edited by Belkor, 15 December 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I would say the IS and Clan mechs were actually decently balanced during this Tukayyid event, whetehr it was a good way to be balanced is another question, but I felt that when playing against units of similar skill level to our own (I'm MJ12) it felt to me like our mechs were pretty well balanced against the clan mechs.

The balance might very likely be thrown off again when the iic mechs get mastered and optimized so we can see their performance peaks, we'll see.

The stats reflect the fact that both the best and the largest units played clan during the event, not much else.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 December 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[Krivvan]

The meta atm is slightly in favor of IS.

OP just...is completely wrong. Not much more to say.

[STEF_]

Krivvan, on 15 December 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

The meta atm is slightly in favor of IS.

OP just...is completely wrong. Not much more to say.

Yep, but it's very fun to troll IS loyalists still bitching.... because they simply suck!
Adamski posts are priceless!

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

Thanks to this post, I know that you are trolling me, since you cut part of my post out when you quoted it to specifically remove the context from the rest of the post.

WTF!!!!

I'm pretty sure u were tier 2 yesterday!!!
What happened?
Too much whining distract you in the battlefield?

[Tesunie]

Stefka Kerensky, on 15 December 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

WTF!!!!

I'm pretty sure u were tier 2 yesterday!!!
What happened?
Too much whining distract you in the battlefield?

Tier has NOTHING to do with this topic. Please, remain civil and on topic.

Someone's tier has no relevance on their opinion, be it what it may be.

[STEF_]

Tesunie, on 15 December 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

Tier has NOTHING to do with this topic. Please, remain civil and on topic.

Someone's tier has no relevance on their opinion, be it what it may be.

Yep, u are right, but since that guy is simply trolling in his posts, I couldn't resist to feed him.

Can someone explain him that it is impossible to stay serious in this topic if he writes this:

"ACH = SDR
SCR = GRF / SHD / WVR / KTO / etc
EBJ = TDR / JM6
TBR = BL-KNT / OR1
WHK = STK / BLR
DWF = AS7 / KGC"


Beside, about Tuk2, in my first posts in this topic I wrote about skills imbalance during the event.
SO yes, meanwhile tiers have nothing to do in clan/IS balance, it had a lot to do in that event.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 15 December 2015 - 10:55 PM.

[Tesunie]

Stefka Kerensky, on 15 December 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

Yep, u are right, but since that guy is simply trolling in his posts, I couldn't resist to feed him.

Can someone explain him that it is impossible to stay serious in this topic if he writes this:

"ACH = SDR
SCR = GRF / SHD / WVR / KTO / etc
EBJ = TDR / JM6
TBR = BL-KNT / OR1
WHK = STK / BLR
DWF = AS7 / KGC"


Beside, about Tuk2, in my first posts in this topic I wrote about skills imbalance during the event.
SO yes, meanwhile tiers have nothing to do in clan/IS balance, it had a lot to do in that event.

But someone's tier should NEVER be a point of ridicule or to try and downtrodden someone's opinion. I may disagree with his opinion, and the proposed theory that the Clans achieved higher damage with fewer players because they are still over powered, but I'll at least give him the decency of not pulling his tier into the discussion.

You have provided a stellar example as to why I did not want player's tiers displayed. I'm happy it's an opt in function instead of automatic. Otherwise, I might be concerned about what you may say about my tier.

If you wish to counter someone's opinion/concept, do so civilly and presenting points on topic. You'll get a lot farther that way than by trying to beat someone by thinly veiled insults. You'll also earn a lot more respect too, at least from people like me.


As a friend of mine has said, "Don't feed the trolls". If you feel he is trolling you, than stop responding.

Edited by Tesunie, 15 December 2015 - 11:09 PM.

[STEF_]

Tesunie, on 15 December 2015 - 11:09 PM, said:

But someone's tier should NEVER be a point of ridicule or to try and downtrodden someone's opinion. I may disagree with his opinion, and the proposed theory that the Clans achieved higher damage with fewer players because they are still over powered, but I'll at least give him the decency of not pulling his tier into the discussion.

You have provided a stellar example as to why I did not want player's tiers displayed. I'm happy it's an opt in function instead of automatic. Otherwise, I might be concerned about what you may say about my tier.

If you wish to counter someone's opinion/concept, do so civilly and presenting points on topic. You'll get a lot farther that way than by trying to beat someone by thinly veiled insults. You'll also earn a lot more respect too, at least from people like me.


As a friend of mine has said, "Don't feed the trolls". If you feel he is trolling you, than stop responding.

With post like this one, you can proudly present your tier whatever it is and earn my respect anyway.

Friend request sent o/

[kesmai]

the only thing I have to propose is: Play clans for a while. Then Come back and tell us if you think they are really overpowered. I think that is the only way to come To a Fair conclusioN.

[Koshirou]

Krivvan, on 15 December 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

The meta atm is slightly in favor of IS.

That may be true (or may be not, I can't say), but is obviously quite irrelevant. Most of the IS Tier 1 Mechs in your updated tier list were not present to any meaningful degree in the BoT2 event.
Which makes sense, too, since I am willing to bet that most participants (by player-matches) were mid-level dedicated players; in other words, people who do own a nice hangar of fine-tuned, mastered Mechs, but who obviously lacked the time or inclination to adapt to the "new meta." For example, I have never owned any Quickdraws, and I was certainly not going to level them in the few days after the requirkening and before the event.

Now, for no-life fanatics who mastered every single Mech in the game and/or are willing to pour hundreds of hours and/or dollars into adapting quickly to the "new meta" (and who also had the inclination to pick apart the new quirks list on their own rather than wait for the publication of tier lists like yours) this was not an issue. But again: The published list of Mechs used shows quite clearly that such players were not in the majority, at least on the IS side.

[demoyn]

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Please, post this GRF-3M build that has great laser range with 4x SRM4 and decent jumping all at the same time.

I didn't say that it had great laser range or "decent" jumping. What I said was that it had a better range and jump capabilities than the SCR of the same relative range and role. Apparently your reading comprehension is as flawless as your MWO knowledge.

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

The STK-3H has 4 energy hardpoints and 15% energy range, which gives it 5% more range than a Clan ERLL.
I bet Clan mechs like the WHK move a whole lot more than 5% faster than a STK. (in fact, the WHK goes 10% faster, can fit 4x cERLL and has a 4% reduced heat quirk compared to the STK-3H 10%, and can fit 30 DHS to the STK-3H max of 24 (25% more DHS)). The WHK also has a larger torso twist even though the STK-3H has a quirk to increase its torso twist.

Why is reality so hard for you to understand? It doesn't matter WHAT the WHK has, because very few people use it. It's not a significant enough mech to make up for screwing over the rest of your drop deck.

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Maybe you should actually look at mech builds, instead of relying on someone elses tier lists to make your opinion for you.

I use "someone else's tier list" so that we can keep level ground in the debate, as I said before. Mech builds are paper / rock / scissors, so if we don't have meta builds then we're just chasing our tails while we laugh at you.

Edited by demoyn, 16 December 2015 - 02:38 AM.