354 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 26 January 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

The structure and mobility quirks would be fine without range and duration quirks. The problem is that if my BJ can burn three LPLs on you and twist away before your CLPLs and Cermls have burned out in response I can't win that trade. We're at my optimal ranges and I can't do as much damage as you can before you twist away.

Part of not being able to win that trade is because of the CERMLAS nerf, which is bigger than it looks because CERMLAS was one of 3 key weapons for all clan builds.


Gauss > nerfed
CERMLAS > nerfed
CLPL > Untouched, but has strong IS competition


They shouldn't have nerfed weapons, and clan XL, andclan DHS, andclan agility andleave locked equipment restrictions which have prevented build options since day one of clan launch.



Too many changes at once, which is exactly what I said leading up to and right after the most recent PTS.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 January 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Cermls are in a good place now. Without the range/duration buffs on key IS mechs it's a close game. Cermls don't need a buff.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 26 January 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Cermls are in a good place now. Without the range/duration buffs on key IS mechs it's a close game. Cermls don't need a buff.

I'd rather do a give-and-take kind of thing to make them a little more generalized while not just flat out restoring them to their crazy TT stats. Something like nerf the damage down to 6, maybe nudge duration up a lil bit (no more than +0.05 seconds), and then put the max range closer to where it used to be.




Yeah, I have a secret agenda for my ERML-boating Mist Lynx.

Edited by FupDup, 26 January 2016 - 04:05 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 26 January 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'd rather do a give-and-take kind of thing to make them a little more generalized while not just flat out restoring them to their crazy TT stats. Something like nerf the damage down to 6, maybe nudge duration up a lil bit (no more than +0.5 seconds), and then put the max range closer to where it used to be.




Yeah, I have a secret agenda for my ERML-boating Mist Lynx.

Yo, more duration is exactly what the MLX doesn't need. Y u do dis?

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

Yo, more duration is exactly what the MLX doesn't need. Y u do dis?

I'm trying to avoid "overbuffing" the ERML, which has the potential to be crazyballs given that it's only 1 ton and can do so much damage at such ranges. I didn't know if the damage being reduced to 6 would be enough, so I threw in the only other variable I could think of to change about it.


For the MLX, it's one of those gundams where a duration reduction quirk would make sense...


Also:

FupDup, on 26 January 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

I just noticed my typo lol. I meant 0.05, not 0.5!

That kinda changes everything...

Edited by FupDup, 26 January 2016 - 04:06 PM.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 26 January 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'd rather do a give-and-take kind of thing to make them a little more generalized while not just flat out restoring them to their crazy TT stats. Something like nerf the damage down to 6, maybe nudge duration up a lil bit (no more than +0.5 seconds), and then put the max range closer to where it used to be.




Yeah, I have a secret agenda for my ERML-boating Mist Lynx.

+0.5 second duration make the burn longer than CERLL @ 1.65 seconds

I also dislike the idea of making the damage per heat the same as the PPC.

I think rolling back the fall off nerf is quite reasonable. It gives clans back some of the potency at mid range trades.

As it stands, they are worse at long range, worse at mid range, and worse at brawling, plus less durable, and no clan mech survives losing a ST (say what you want, you lose it you die).

I would prefer seeing IS XL granted the survival of ST loss and impose speed penalty and remove the penalty from clans while rolling back the absurd structure buffs. That does more for the IS than any of the other current buffs do in the eyes of many. It also makes clan players happy.

To be quite honest, the SPL/ERSL/MPL/ERML were really not needing a nerf. Of those...only the MPL had a real niche use, and the CERML was the only potent weapon among them. The rest were barely used outside of light mechs and 300m hero brawlers...which were not really problematic to begin with.

The CERML could have had a number of things done instead, that would have impacted the usefulness less dramatically. Besides, with almost every IS mech having between 10-35% range quirks on energy, the IS ML is basically a 300-330m weapon at this point...which leaves IS in no great disparity for range (there is a disparity, but it is significantly closer).

Roll out the IS ER lasers and roll back the clan nerfs, I am all on board for that.

Edited by Gyrok, 26 January 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

+0.5 second duration make the burn longer than CERLL @ 1.5 seconds

I just noticed my typo lol. I meant 0.05, not 0.5! Derp.

That kinda changes everything...

Edited by FupDup, 26 January 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[Macster16]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

Yo, more duration is exactly what the MLX doesn't need. Y u do dis?

Give MLX -50% duration quirk?

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 26 January 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

I just noticed my typo lol. I meant 0.05, not 0.5! Derp.

That kinda changes everything...

It does, but even then, if you reduce the damage, does it honestly need more duration?

Now it does the same damage as an IS MPL...I mean, that is not really that staggering at all. You cannot possibly leave the heat alone if you do that either.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

It does, but even then, if you reduce the damage, does it honestly need more duration?

Now it does the same damage as an IS MPL...I mean, that is not really that staggering at all. You cannot possibly leave the heat alone if you do that either.

It would however have much more range and would weigh 1 ton less.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 26 January 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

It would however have much more range and would weigh 1 ton less.

But the IS would get 4 heat MPLs while clans would have 6 heat ERMLs?

Can we not just convince PGI that the IS needs the rest of the ER lasers, then the IS ERML would reach 360m effective range at 1 ton/1 crit and more or less kill the argument entirely.

I am good with XPLs too...bring them along as well. That closes so many gaps in the current meta as it stands you could wipe out the quirks almost completely and run numbers for a few months to determine where quirks need to go at that point.

[Y E O N N E]

Macster16, on 26 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

Give MLX -50% duration quirk?

Lol, 48.7 damage/tick with C-ERML. I'll take it!

FupDup, on 26 January 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

I'm trying to avoid "overbuffing" the ERML, which has the potential to be crazyballs given that it's only 1 ton and can do so much damage at such ranges. I didn't know if the damage being reduced to 6 would be enough, so I threw in the only other variable I could think of to change about it.


For the MLX, it's one of those gundams where a duration reduction quirk would make sense...

Even a damage reduction affects it in a hugely negative manner. It doesn't even reach 30, and that change puts it down to 24. That's absurdly low for something that isn't a half-second pulse-laser.

Honestly, I feel like a better balance to the C-ERML is 7 damage for 5.5 heat with a 1.25 second burn, 3.25 second cool-down, and ~380 meters range. The isML ought to sit around 300 meters range dealing 5 damage at 3 heat with a 0.9 second burn and a 2.7 second cool-down. Ghost heat at 6x for C-ERML and 8x for isML because it's ~40 damage (or we can go the other way and say 5x for C-ERML and 7x for isML). No quirks, identical DHS for both sides, double range for simplicity. You'll find that the DPT and DPS values are nearly identical for both, so a Clan player can pull off after 0.9 seconds and have done the same damage in response. HPS is 28% better on the IS side, but that's fine since the Clans often fit about 30% more in DHS (18 DHS baseline for IS, 20 is exceptional there). If it's not fine, we can always bump it up again. C-ERML might need more DPS, and we might need to buff the cool-down to a shorter time, and I'm okay with that since heat is a soft-limiter on DPS already. My only hesitation is the presence of Cool-Shots which can skew it pro-Clan if we do that.

Naturally, that's only one part of a more comprehensive change. The rest of the lasers would have to be tweaked to cover the gaps. Clans shouldn't be left up a creek for brawling, IS shouldn't be left up a creek for range, etc.

Edit: And the MLX wouldn't need duration so much if it had Locust-level durability buffs.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 January 2016 - 04:30 PM.

[nitra]

I think many of you have totally missed Jabilacs point.

its about establishing a base line . because thats what we are arguing here .

what is the acceptable ttk for mech vs mech and its load outs . and the only way were going to achieve that is to get the synthetics done so that we know what each mech is capable of . then we can use those numbers to compare other mechs to .

for instance does that raven 4x out dps a ebj ?? and if so by how much and is that acceptable ?

then in another synthetic we see how the two square off either 1 v1

then finally we get to real world testing with range brawling, and mixed environment, to see just how effective that mech actually is on the battlefield.

but with out synthetic base line numbers were not ever really going to know what is an acceptable ttk for a mech and certain load out is . all we are going to do is keep pointing fingers and screaming that xxx is op and needs to be nerfed now.

and the more i read through this thread the more it seems people are advocating for sit back and snipe game play.

i really hope that is not the case.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Edit: And the MLX wouldn't need duration so much if it had Locust-level durability buffs.

Including catapult level durability quirks for those arms.

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

for instance does that raven 4x out dps a ebj ?? and if so by how much and is that acceptable ?

then in another synthetic we see how the two square off either 1 v1

Because all you are doing is testing dps, that can be done without any human interaction, literally. There is more to the game than that that can affect your ability to put damage on a target. The best baseline test is to get equally skilled teams with equally skilled pilots and let them have at it and see what works and what doesn't, but that is impossible to actually setup so this is the best we have.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

Including catapult level durability quirks for those arms.

Especially that for those arms.

Quote

Because all you are doing is testing dps, that can be done without any human interaction, literally. There is more to the game than that that can affect your ability to put damage on a target. The best baseline test is to get equally skilled teams with equally skilled pilots and let them have at it and see what works and what doesn't, but that is impossible to actually setup so this is the best we have.

He's also saying that the only way to test is to remove the variables, but he's neglecting the fact that you can render the impact of the subjective variables negligible by using a factorial experimental design.

[nitra]

y

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

Including catapult level durability quirks for those arms.


Because all you are doing is testing dps, that can be done without any human interaction, literally. There is more to the game than that that can affect your ability to put damage on a target. The best baseline test is to get equally skilled teams with equally skilled pilots and let them have at it and see what works and what doesn't, but that is impossible to actually setup so this is the best we have.

not impossible a pain in the rear maybe but not impossible. however team play is not a base line test, that is real world and the testing being done is without any kind of base line to draw a test scenario from .

were just postulating rather innersphere has a unfair advantage vs clan.

rather than testing and saying that a raven can destroy a ebj in x amount of time how does that translate in to the real world ?? or does it ??


we need both metrics.

not just random data being subjugated to personal endeavors.

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 04:55 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

rather than testing and saying that a raven can destroy a ebj in x amount of time how does that translate in to the real world ?? or does it ??

That's my point, this is a team game so that sort of metric doesn't really translate. Plus what you are talking about can be simulated with simple programs, there doesn't need to be people actually testing it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 January 2016 - 04:57 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Nitra, You aren't establishing a baseline at all with Jabilac's thing, all you're doing is checking that your math is correct.

The real baseline is real-world performance. We know all of these other things affect performance, so establishing a baseline for where we are would be to play a long series of games with shuffled players using the best equipment in the game. That will tell us where the average TTK is under the most strenuous of conditions, which set of equipment is stronger, etc. Those derivative points are what affect the game. We then go back and tweak the variables to durability, range, heat, etc. and re-test to find what the change is against that baseline.

[nitra]

we or pgi established a long time ago that the 4 second jenner was unacceptable. that was a base line test. (jenner runs up behind atlas cores it 4 seconds)

that is what needs to be done today what is considered acceptable ttk for mechs .

im all for real world testing but we also need the synthetics.


not that really matters cause pgi is going to make the call but if we have strong enough numbers showing IS is stronger than clans than maybe we can push the issue ... but playing sniper wars is not going to demonstrate anything . that is subjugate to doubt.

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 05:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The reason a 4-second Jenner is unacceptable is because it has the speed and agility to actually pull off running up behind an Atlas and core it with near impunity. A Panther does not. A Mist Lynx does not. Are you starting to see it, now? Regardless, with the Jenner IIC and all the missiles, we practically have said 4-second Jenner already. To say nothing about FS9-As with 8x SPL, etc.

We don't need the synthetics because they are literally no different than what we can see on paper. They will tell you the same things you can already compute with a pencil, some paper, all the weapon values, and all of the armor/structure values. You don't have to test that.