1094 replies to this topic

[NeoCodex]

Just pinching my 2 cents.. this is a brilliant idea and I would fully support it as it is (could tweak it later). Unfortunately tough, it seems something way too complicated for PGI to be able to develop. If it took weeks of development time to scale damage on Clan LRM and it's not possible to develop ammo switching, I don't see resources being put into something as "complicated" as this. But it's really not. It just seems that PGI makes game development look like rocket science and extremely time consuming to develop, so I have no hopes.

They would probably need to a hire a new CoF engineer just for this and give him at least 3 months to develop basic functionality of it. And then with the UI team having their plate full it will have to be pushed back so we're looking here for at least 12-18 months of development time, not including the 3-6 months design phase. Remember decals? Yeah, they're out there, somewhere. So maybe in about 2 years time, after it is approved. Drink.

But I want this.

Edited by NeoCodex, 12 February 2016 - 02:10 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

pyrocomp, on 12 February 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

So the argument of 'precise' computer is not entirely correct.

You are right. Not to speak of read/write Errors into memory and so on. But non or less chips as long as they be cooled (if needed) do a good job in calcuating whatever you feed them. My comment was more about heat issues. And there we only have on and off. Slowing down ok, but then it is like it is off, because it lacks its function to calculate in time.

pyrocomp, on 12 February 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

Plus, having precise knowelegde that you need to move that 4 tons a hair to the right does not male that move (and provide no clue how you know that you have moved those tons all the way or a half hair less).

Well there are pretty sophisticated ways to measure those.But i won't open up that can of worms, since it is related to the post #368 http://mwomercs.com/...59#entry5008859 and then we have the full debate again.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 12 February 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[Lily from animove]

btw why do MG's have a cone of fire and ballistics not? Are MG barrels made of a special rubber alloy?

Kuritaclan, on 11 February 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

1.) Computers are 0 and 1 - as long as they are not overheated they calculate correctly or give you a error, if it cannot proceed - if they are to hot they don't calculate at all -they don't calculate partially. Not to say that the engineer who made the cooling for the chip should be fired, if that is the case in combat equipment, in BT maybe he is beheaded.

thats slightly incorrect. Yes a Computer calculates, alwys the same style. yet he can onyl calculate what parameter he has available, and what his proces power allows him to caclulate fats enough.

So heat could eman the Computr needs to clock down, makign him execute (and therfore adjust) the aim not as precise by either dropping some variables in the equation to ensure the operation cna still be done. Or by havign the results in a slight delay, yet not being accurately anymore for the situation which already changed compared to the computers cacluation. Which is also a kind of inaccuracy.

You cna surely make it "calculate" partially. Think about your own PC, Imagien a targettign computer will primarily calculate "aim correction" accoridng to the owns mechs movement as threat one. Then Aim correction of the opponents movement as threat two.

You have 2 threats running requiring 90% of its calculation power. You mech now heats up to a degree where cooling is unsufficient, the processor cloks down, now both prcesses would be at 140% laod, which obviously the processor does not allow.

When threat 1 is on higher priority than threat 2, the targeting computer may now not caclulate stuff for the opponents movement anymore. And this giving a less accurate outcome to its performance until it is cooled down enough to process threat 2 again as well.

A computer is not necessarily as you describ a single simple chip doing only one calculation. So your senros and targetting computers are mostlikely complex having a lot of software running. And they will msotlikely in a future be able to operate on various level of efficiencies and be able to "partially" operate by having various tasks that are priorised.

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 February 2016 - 02:31 AM.

[pyrocomp]

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

You are right. Not to speak of read/write Errors into memory and so on. But non or less chips as long as they be cooled (if needed) do a good job in calcuating whatever you feed them. My comment was more about heat issues. And there we only have on and off. Slowing down ok, but then it is like it is off, because it lacks its function to calculate in time.


Well there are pretty sophisticated ways to measure those.But i won't open up that can of worms, since it is related to the post #368 http://mwomercs.com/...59#entry5008859 and then we have the full debate again.

For those test lasers there is one thing (not to get into same argument) that the do not track o point, they are set to follow a good smooth trajectrory (and dynamical situations are better in those cases for manu techincal resons regardin friction mainly). Let that laser tracker (without beam) to follow a swift or any other erratically manuvering target and presently it'll fail (well, to be honest, that thing was designed to track fast but non-manuevering targets).

As for the CPU behavior under high temperature... To be honest, in my experience it is dependent on the chip itself. I had my old Celeron under high temperature (the fan quitely died once and I found it later) work normally until some threshold after which it really started to give out errors (winamp was a good way to hear those) it wasn't 'off' instantly, the OS went haywire minutes after those overheating symptons emerged (and that was Win98, not stable in any definition). Another CPU (P4) will just hang the system at T_critical and that will be all. A new one I have now... hell, looks like it'll start melting befor going down (I got some nasty 'burning plastic' smell while playing with some settings). So it depends, I think, on some random uncontrolled parameters of each individual chip (not even a series, not even a model).

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

btw why do MG's have a cone of fire and ballistics not? Are MG barrels made of a special rubber alloy?

They are made, according to PGI, from special crit-seeking alloy.

[Lily from animove]

pyrocomp, on 12 February 2016 - 02:28 AM, said:

They are made, according to PGI, from special crit-seeking alloy.

xD

sniffing for crit locations

[Kuritaclan]

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

btw why do MG's have a cone of fire and ballistics not? Are MG barrels made of a special rubber alloy?

MGs have recoil with high cadance which is that high that the deviation can not be compensated. ACs are big guns firing "once in a while" with enough time to set them up into the zero position again for a optimal fire solution. At least that would be the logical explenation for this to my understanding.

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

So heat could eman the Computr needs to clock down, makign him execute (and therfore adjust) the aim not as precise by either dropping some variables in the equation to ensure the operation cna still be done.

...

A computer is not necessarily as you describ a single simple chip doing only one calculation. So your senros and targetting computers are mostlikely complex having a lot of software running. And they will msotlikely in a future be able to operate on various level of efficiencies and be able to "partially" operate by having various tasks that are priorised.

Thats not how it works when such things are designed. Do you really wanna have a nuclear plant been controlled by equipment that drop some variables? Certainly a bit a high of a risk. No if the environmantal parameter for usage are over the limit - it goes off and you have to make it manually or via backup systems or last resort you hit a override button but be prepared for fatal errors (what in the last case, if as it is often by a part of the community claimed, will not be done, because according to those you have no spare Parts). But as it is nobody would allow such equipment to be used/produced in the first place - it would be redesigned to meet the requirments.

pyrocomp, on 12 February 2016 - 02:28 AM, said:

For those test lasers there is one thing (not to get into same argument) that the do not track o point, they are set to follow a good smooth trajectrory (and dynamical situations are better in those cases for manu techincal resons regardin friction mainly). Let that laser tracker (without beam) to follow a swift or any other erratically manuvering target and presently it'll fail (well, to be honest, that thing was designed to track fast but non-manuevering targets).

Last time i checked drones do erratically manuverings. And sure the trajectrory is not the acutal trajectrory its allways interpolated. As it is with robotic arms and so on, only that the path isn't pre programmed but is a relative movement to another moving object, what is tracked with sensors. Oh and seaking of robots. Did saw some latest tracking there.

I mean come on that is cool. And it is all related/based on this:

Edited by Kuritaclan, 12 February 2016 - 03:06 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

MGs have recoil with high cadance which is that high that the deviation can not be compensated. ACs are big guns firing "once in a while" with enough time to set them up into the zero position again for a optimal fire solution.

Clan AC'S don't fire once in a awhile. Only IS AC's do and even this is just a game implementation being abstract form the Lore. In lore an AC is a rabid fring wepaon doing X damage.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

just read the lore before you bring in nonsense arguments that are pulled by your hairs to support your opinion instead of understanding The battletech world, it's lre and what "abstraction" of complex system means. Because thats why the game is as it is. "once in a while" is a dame mechnic decided to implement IS AC's. It's not the working "realism" of the battletech world.

Becaus AC's in said worlds are nothing than LARGE machineguns. Lorewise BT MG's are anti infantry. And BT AC's are anti vehicle MG's.

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

Thats not how it works when such things are designed. Do you really wanna have a nuclear plant been controlled by equipment that drop some variables? Certainly a bit a high of a risk. No if the environmantal parameter for usage are over the limit - it goes off and you have to make it manually or via backup systems or last resort you hit a override button but be prepared for fatal errors (what in the last case, if as it is often by a part of the community claimed, will not be done, because according to those you have no spare Parts). But as it is nobody would allow such equipment to be used/produced in the first place - it would be redesigned to meet the requirments.

NO, that is how it is designed, overheating is NOT the perimeters a mech is normally meant to operate in, or longer high heat conditions. Guess why the TT has a heat table and effects for it. And a nuclear plant is probably a entire different level of critcial level than a mech. mechs ar elimited in what they can you don'T gte the "all is workign under any circumstances" equipment for it. otherwise emchs would never be deisgned to overheat. Otherwise masc wouldn't damage your mech. I guess you entirely do not understand how mechs in the BT universe are built and meant to operate. It does have at all a logic.

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 February 2016 - 03:11 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 03:09 AM, said:

Clan AC'S don't fire once in a awhile. Only IS AC's do and even this is just a game implementation being abstract form the Lore. In lore an AC is a rabid fring wepaon doing X damage.

Rapid firing has much to do with subjective impression. The only thing that is for sure they load automaticly -> Auto Cannon.

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 03:09 AM, said:

NO, that is how it is designed, overheating is NOT the perimeters a mech is normally meant to operate in, or longer high heat conditions. Guess why the TT has a heat table and effects for it. And a nuclear plant is probably a entire different level of critcial level than a mech. mechs ar elimited in what they can you don'T gte the "all is workign under any circumstances" equipment for it. otherwise emchs would never be deisgned to overheat. Otherwise masc wouldn't damage your mech. I guess you entirely do not understand how mechs in the BT universe are built and meant to operate. It does have at all a logic.

You named some override condition. All of those come with the penalty of fatal error. And you produced your own contradiction. If you say: "mechs are limited in what they can you don'T gte the "all is working under any circumstances" equipment for it. otherwise emchs would never be designed to overheat." But you come up with circuits that have software integrated procedures that decide which variables to drop, you essentially say that they are designed with the extreme conditions in mind. And thats in the end the dead of this equipment, especially if it should function correctly some centuries as in family mechs. Only one could be true: 1) they are designed to operate even under override conditions and don't shut down or slow down or 2.) do some other crap they can't handle it (are bad by design) and since they are so valuable Mechwarriors would never risk to override it and loss such key components of the mech.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 12 February 2016 - 03:38 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

Rapid firing has much to do with subjective impression. The only thing that is for sure they load automaticly -> Auto Cannon.

NO IT IS NOT, do you ever read the lore? like in ever, ever ever?

Quote

The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10

With a BT turn being 10 seconds, thats 10 shots per second of an AC 20 that uses this kind of shots, not even speakign of autocannons. That may not be what you lik to define "rapid" but its clearly not "once in a while"

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

Rapid firing has much to do with subjective impression. The only thing that is for sure they load automaticly -> Auto Cannon.


You named some override condition. All of those come with the penalty of fatal error. And you produced your own contradiction. If you say: "mechs are limited in what they can you don'T gte the "all is working under any circumstances" equipment for it. otherwise emchs would never be designed to overheat." But you come up with circuits that have software integrated procedures that decide which variables to drop, you essentially say that they are designed with the extreme conditions in mind. And thats in the end the dead of this equipment, especially if it should function correctly some centuries as in family mechs. Only one could be true: 1) they are designed to operate even under override conditions and don't shut down or slow down or 2.) do some other crap they can't handle it (are bad by design) and since they are so valuable Mechwarriors would never risk to override it and loss such key components of the mech.

you cant abstract and think in complex system can't you?

They are not meant to operate normal under extreme conditions, but this does not nullfiy not being able to work under extreme conditions a the expanse of some performanse just LIKE NEARLY ANYTHING IN OUR LIFE.

The overrider is where you go over the point of "safe functionality" thats is the point where you would force your CPU to proceed 100% perofrmance above what heat dissipation allows. to prevent this a mech has a shut down procedure.
Below that level is exxactly what BT does with heat scales, "penalties" which means operating outside of normal parameters. Which will have sideeffects to prevent permanent damage. And this lowers the performance of you mech. Like slower movement, worse aim and so on. Exactly like your PC would do when heat is too high, he clocks down. It is still better to have a working system below max possibilities than no working system at all. You are probably the only Mechwarrior who would like to have a nonworking mech at 10 heat while others would happily continue to shoot at you with some minor trade offs.

Heat penalties "are safe operations" that keep the system going without bad results. Just trade-off performance. Override is where the bad stuff happens.

if you don' wnat to accept this stop arguing in this thread bcause this is still a battletech game and we discuss a battletech based game. Ontop even in reality stuff works like this.

If I had the option to byu a TC operating at 100% until 50% ehat and then continues with 60% performance until 100% I would prefer it over one not working at 80%heat. your "idea" that a TC has to work until 100% is the "ideal" world. But this is not the canon in the BT world, Such a piece of equipment does not exist, so you have to choose the one not being that "ideal" because there heat has effects already below the "overheat". Otherwise all mechs would operate heat neutral.

You can actually deisgn heat neutral mechs if you want a "safe" system, the lore allows this, but in MWO they would fail to "do their job" because they have abyssimal bad dps. So we in MWO design mechs already past their original intented capabilities. We are overclocking our CPU's past what the coolant can handle, Which bursts our calculation power in the beginning and soon has to clock down. Or we hit the override button and watch our PC burn.

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 February 2016 - 04:20 AM.

[pyrocomp]

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

MGs have recoil with high cadance which is that high that the deviation can not be compensated. ACs are big guns firing "once in a while" with enough time to set them up into the zero position again for a optimal fire solution. At least that would be the logical explenation for this to my understanding.


Thats not how it works when such things are designed. Do you really wanna have a nuclear plant been controlled by equipment that drop some variables? Certainly a bit a high of a risk. No if the environmantal parameter for usage are over the limit - it goes off and you have to make it manually or via backup systems or last resort you hit a override button but be prepared for fatal errors (what in the last case, if as it is often by a part of the community claimed, will not be done, because according to those you have no spare Parts). But as it is nobody would allow such equipment to be used/produced in the first place - it would be redesigned to meet the requirments.



Last time i checked drones do erratically manuverings. And sure the trajectrory is not the acutal trajectrory its allways interpolated. As it is with robotic arms and so on, only that the path isn't pre programmed but is a relative movement to another moving object, what is tracked with sensors. Oh and seaking of robots. Did saw some latest tracking there.

I mean come on that is cool. And it is all related/based on this:

I was reffering no to a detection of the object on the camera feeded image (computer vision), but more on the mechanical part. Take camera one to look and use it's feed to track birds and use the tracker data to autoaim second camera on the same bird. If the bird does not leave the dead center of the second image (or birds CT if we go nerdy), then I really missed some new tech advancement since last I checked. The above mentioned setup can track cars on highway, but not better than that.

[Doman Hugin]

There was never a set number of shells for auto-cannons.

From memory as i have no material to hand:

Summoner's Ultra AC20 fired so many rounds as to be a nearly continuous stream of rounds if fired on ultra.

Victor's Pantiac AC20 was a single round.

and there were many in between

[Lily from animove]

Doman Hugin, on 12 February 2016 - 05:32 AM, said:

There was never a set number of shells for auto-cannons.

From memory as i have no material to hand:

Summoner's Ultra AC20 fired so many rounds as to be a nearly continuous stream of rounds if fired on ultra.

Victor's Pantiac AC20 was a single round.

and there were many in between

yes this, an AC deals 20 damage in a round fired, this cna be due to various styles, a lrge round many small ones. probably depends on the manufacturers model. That also may explain why many AC's look different in shape in the original BT, and why I dislike the gunoverhaul in MWO on the IS mechs. However for abstracting and unifiyng this in MWO PG decided one shot shells for IS. multiple shooting ones came later with the clans as they wanted to make it different.
And I guess no one would ise a mechine gun like AC 20 shooting 100rounds (outside of the sheer fun of trolling), because it owuld need laods of facetime and spread damage like hell. Older Mechwarrior games also had autocannns fire bursts.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

Older Mechwarrior games also had autocannns fire bursts.

Not MW4, at least outside of Ultra's which fired twice to "simulate" the double tap mechanic.

[Mystere]

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Well there are pretty sophisticated ways to measure those.But i won't open up that can of worms, since it is related to the post #368 http://mwomercs.com/...59#entry5008859 and then we have the full debate again.

Don't temp me, or I'll be dumping a truck full of x-ray and gamma irradiated worms on you.

Edited by Mystere, 12 February 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 February 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

Not MW4, at least outside of Ultra's which fired twice to "simulate" the double tap mechanic.

Hmm, yeah could be I forgot. MW4 was the most "unmechwarrior" mechwarrior of them all. the mechs looked cubic more than in the other games. I like it the leats of all MW's. Only cool thing was the intro

[Macksheen]

How hard would it be for the various weapons to be effectively aimed on the edge of the circle where they are mounted, with the convergence going to a point given time, etc.?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

MW4 was the most "unmechwarrior" mechwarrior of them all.

That may be, but it was the best designed one (not balance wise but everything else) and honestly I still wish MWO had learned from MW4.

[S13gtastic]

I'm 100% against all this COF stuff on the forums lately. Mark my words ya'll will get it and then will start complaining how terrible it is and the cycle will continue all over again.

[Repasy Cooper]

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

yes this, an AC deals 20 damage in a round fired, this cna be due to various styles, a lrge round many small ones. probably depends on the manufacturers model. That also may explain why many AC's look different in shape in the original BT, and why I dislike the gunoverhaul in MWO on the IS mechs. However for abstracting and unifiyng this in MWO PG decided one shot shells for IS. multiple shooting ones came later with the clans as they wanted to make it different.
And I guess no one would ise a mechine gun like AC 20 shooting 100rounds (outside of the sheer fun of trolling), because it owuld need laods of facetime and spread damage like hell. Older Mechwarrior games also had autocannns fire bursts.

Building off this, how siiiick would it be if they included different manufacturers for every weapon in the game. No single manufacturer would be 'better' than the rest, but they'd each have unique mechanics. Some AC would be single round, some continuous stream. Some PPC would have different color, or trade off range for speed etc. Different missile manufacturers would have different reload times, fire missiles all at once or in a stream. There's so many possibilities, and it would really add some flavor to the game & shake up the meta.

[FupDup]

Lily from animove, on 12 February 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

Hmm, yeah could be I forgot. MW4 was the most "unmechwarrior" mechwarrior of them all. the mechs looked cubic more than in the other games. I like it the leats of all MW's. Only cool thing was the intro

No, the most "unmechwarrior" was Mechassault, particularly MA2.

And don't dis MW4 brah, cuz I played its singleplayer a minimum of 20 times through to date, probably more lol.