174 replies to this topic

[Torric]

Darian DelFord, on 21 April 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

So much fire? really it has a +11 to its CT (Which is a GIANT MAGNET) and +8 to the ST's. Seriously so much fire? That is an extra 2 Medium lasers worth or 1 SRM 6, or 1 LPL.

So much fire, seriously?

Only in an ideal environment. Since hitreg in MWO is notoriously unreliable, what seems like "an extra 2 medium lasers worth" of health easily translates to practically triple that value.

I am assuming hitreg is working equally for everyone here, of course, and last night pre-hotfix in the scouting game i was spawned in a trial cmpl scrow far apart from any team mates, but within close proximity to no less than three enemy oxides. I got two and a half burns of my lasers off, that all hit on my client (#1 oxide running straight towards me, #2 oxide during circle strafing, #3 oxide running against me and midburn warping through me).

So that should be 40+40+ 15-20something, in the 80-100 range.

End of round screen showed 23 dmg totals.

So much for those unimportant structure quirks (I am not saying the Oxide is the only hitreg culprit here, it is more of a general issue, the more apaprent the faster the mechs involved (both piloted and targeted) are).

[Darian DelFord]

Torric, on 22 April 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Only in an ideal environment. Since hitreg in MWO is notoriously unreliable, what seems like "an extra 2 medium lasers worth" of health easily translates to practically triple that value.

I am assuming hitreg is working equally for everyone here, of course, and last night pre-hotfix in the scouting game i was spawned in a trial cmpl scrow far apart from any team mates, but within close proximity to no less than three enemy oxides. I got two and a half burns of my lasers off, that all hit on my client (#1 oxide running straight towards me, #2 oxide during circle strafing, #3 oxide running against me and midburn warping through me).

So that should be 40+40+ 15-20something, in the 80-100 range.

End of round screen showed 23 dmg totals.

So much for those unimportant structure quirks (I am not saying the Oxide is the only hitreg culprit here, it is more of a general issue, the more apaprent the faster the mechs involved (both piloted and targeted) are).

Hit Reg issues still happen, the problem is that is a 2 way street. I can not tell you how many times I have put a volley into a black hole of a mech.

The problem I am seeing now, is especially in 4v4, once I am locked into a fight, I can not out live a storm crow with SSRM"s or SRM's or the damn SPL version. A LOT of people think the Oxide is some invincible force they can't hit. And usually at range it is VERY difficult to hit a moving target. most Mechs are equipped for Meium to Long range weapons. That is just the meta for right now.

Once an Oxide gets close its just one alpha from dying. I have made plenty of mistakes and gotten in front of an atlas or a DW and just got wasted.

The OXIDE is a tough little bugger and I will not hide that fact, but the Jenners as whole were designed to be strikers. I just wish the other Jenners got the strcuture buffs. When is the last time you saw a K, F or even a D. The Oxide is King of the Jenners for sure.

But in internal skims (granted they know how to play me) my unit limits my damage and opportunities to the point its almost a waste for me to bring a light. However in the PUG Q's very few people know how to fight a light.

Now in a pack Oxides are a terrible force to be recokoned with. But so are Atlai, DW's Storm Crows or any mech for that matter..

[G SE7EN7]

Its a light, aim (like actually put some effort into it) shoot it... it will die, just like any other light. If that doesnt work take out the streakcrow.

Just cos you havent figured out how to counter it doesnt mean it needs a nurf.

[DrxAbstract]

TwentyOne, on 22 April 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

and in 2013 the tryhard raven pilots were still kicking and screaming for the raven to never be nerfed. Now its decent but not silly OP, and another OP light comes up and this one isn't allowed to be nerfed?

Considering the Raven was never actually nerfed in the first place and in fact has since received moderate quirks (buffs). Comparing Then vs. Now is completely ignoring they are two entirely different situations: Lights were strong back then because HSR didnt exist and their vulnerabilities were masked by it. Fast forward to present day where HSR exists and Quirks, scant few Lights survived the transition with some success... More accurately, a handful of specific variants thanks in large part to Quirks moderately reinforcing the strengths of those variants.

Comparatively, Lights are still nowhere near as powerful as they were back then. Quirks leveled them out quite a bit, but the power creep of weapon hardpoint inflation of the other weight classes is steadily leaving them behind once again, in turn requiring even heavier quirking to compensate... The Oxide being a prime example of what a properly quirked and played Light can do. The same can be said for specific variants of Arctic Cheetahs, Locusts and Firestarters while virtually every other Light, and some variants of the already mentioned ones, remain mediocre due to the chassis limitations and/or improper quirks.

[Torric]

Darian DelFord, on 22 April 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

Hit Reg issues still happen, the problem is that is a 2 way street. I can not tell you how many times I have put a volley into a black hole of a mech.

When i am in my LCT-1V, i feel like i am easily surviving more than twice of what i should. There have been instances where i ran around a corner and came face to face with laservomit timbers, and did not even lose my ct armor...

Edited by Torric, 22 April 2016 - 03:17 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Torric, on 22 April 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

When i am in my LCT-1V, i feel like i am easily surviving more than twice of what i should. There have been instances where i ran around a corner and came face to face with laservomit timbers, and did not even lose my ct armor...

Familiarizing yourself with geometry and realizing 'Instant Convergence' is a myth would help you understand why that happens.

Weapons do not converge instantly. The further the weapons are spread across the firing mech, the faster the distances between said mech and their target changes and the size of said target are all factors and accounts for the majority of 'missed shots' on small, fast targets. Weapons miss Lights up close more often due in large part to Pilot error; Their crosshairs are constantly switching back and forth between the target 30 meters away and the terrain 300-1000 meters away every time they pick up their crosshairs to twist off damage, change directions, etc... And Weapons Convergence isnt fast enough to keep up with it. So when they go from having their sights on terrain 400m out to the Light parked 20m away in their face in a split second, Convergence is still catching up so their weapons are set to converge 100-200m away still when they pull the trigger.

It's simple mechanics like this people seem largely unaware of that is the cause of much of their issues hitting Lights. HSR goofs are, in reality, less responsible for misses than the players themselves are.

[Darian DelFord]

DrxAbstract, on 22 April 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

Familiarizing yourself with geometry and realizing 'Instant Convergence' is a myth would help you understand why that happens.

Weapons do not converge instantly. The further the weapons are spread across the firing mech, the faster the distances between said mech and their target changes and the size of said target are all factors and accounts for the majority of 'missed shots' on small, fast targets. Weapons miss Lights up close more often due in large part to Pilot error; Their crosshairs are constantly switching back and forth between the target 30 meters away and the terrain 300-1000 meters away every time they pick up their crosshairs to twist off damage, change directions, etc... And Weapons Convergence isnt fast enough to keep up with it. So when they go from having their sights on terrain 400m out to the Light parked 20m away in their face in a split second, Convergence is still catching up so their weapons are set to converge 100-200m away still when they pull the trigger.

It's simple mechanics like this people seem largely unaware of that is the cause of much of their issues hitting Lights. HSR goofs are, in reality, less responsible for misses than the players themselves are.

Yeah ALOT of people forget about that and when I spectate this is one of the top reason's why heavies and assaults "THINK" that Lag Shield is the issue.

[Gyrok]

Stefka Kerensky, on 20 April 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

New players must grind, since this game is all about grind, but of course a banana from 2012 could not understand that yet!!!....what else?

Of course you cannot answer to the fact that I stated Oxide is not OP, since every player with a minimum aim skill (not u, it seems) can insta shot it.
But, what else could we expect from a banana?

What else? Must I rewrite the same post over and over because u cannot read, or u refuse to understand?, right, banana?

Name 1 mech in the game that cannot be killed in 1 shot under the proper circumstances.

[STEF_]

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

Name 1 mech in the game that cannot be killed in 1 shot under the proper circumstances.

I'm not talking about "proper circumstances".
I'm talking about jenner hitboxes.
Name one mech easier to insta-shot than the jenner.

[Rhaythe]

Stefka Kerensky, on 22 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Name one mech easier to insta-shot than the jenner.

Locust?

[STEF_]

Rhaythe, on 22 April 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Locust?

well at 165kph it depends a lot on lag, and connection quality.
Jenner is slower and above all, bigger with, imo, worse hitboxes.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 21 April 2016 - 07:29 AM, said:

The Oxide has structural quirks because it doesn't have jump jets, which come standard on all other Jenners and improves their survivability to some extent. Not as simply or straightforward as raw increased health, but they do, and you can't discount that the Oxide loses both some survivability and a lot of mobility to the lost jets. Jetless lights are an exception, not a rule; they tend to need more to balance out the loss than bigger fatter bros.

Whether it also needs weapon quirks I leave up to the T1 Overlords who play the ultracomp leagues, but remember - the Oxide has precisely four hardpoints, not a single lick of energy anywhere on the 'Mech, and gets no jump jets the way every last single other even semi-competitive light 'Mech does. Firestarters? Jets. Cheetahs? Piles of (hardlocked) jets. Other Jenners/Jenner IICs? Jets, and jets. Most of those also have close to double the overall hardpoint count of the Oxide, if not double or more. And two of those hardpoints are CT-mounted and thus each have one slot to use.

Whether or not the Oxide is currently Ohh Pee, Pee Two Dubbleyu, or any of those other acronyms meaning "I don't like dying to this thing" around here, I will not say. What I do know is that for the longest time, the Oxide was almost as big a joke as the Anansi. Most of the reasons it was a Slap In The Face™ to Jenner pilots still stand. How much tuning-down can it take before it reverts back to that RHSC status and it goes back into the Drunken Streaming bin next to the Huginn?

The WLF 1 & 2 are actually quite competitive with no JJs.

The 1 is best with either 5 MPLs and XL300 (speed advantage over FS9s and such), or 5 MLs and XL315.

The 2 is best with 6 MLs and XL295.

The big thing is, other mechs with JJs do have higher agility and can abuse terrain more aggressively to break LoS. Having said that, the Oxide has 16 DPS sustained and drops ~105 damage in 4 seconds (Fire-2 seconds-Fire-2 seconds-Fire). By comparison, it should be at heat cap or close by now. The reality is...it is not running hot. A laser vomit TW with a 54 alpha puts out 108 damage in the same span, but is now redlining heat.

See the point?

My position on this is the following:

I am ok with crazy DPS out of the oxide...but not with as much structure as it has currently.

The other option (less appealing as well, I think), is to leave the structure, and reduce the heat gen and SRM spread quirks.

You could reduce the structure quirks some, and reduce the heat gen/cooldown some...and that would strike a nice compromise on both ends...but either way...it does need to be toned down. I do not mean that by pulling the plug on the amp...I am talking about turning the gain down from 8 to say...5.

[Gyrok]

Stefka Kerensky, on 22 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I'm not talking about "proper circumstances".
I'm talking about jenner hitboxes.
Name one mech easier to insta-shot than the jenner.

Catapult or Battlemaster or Hunchback, or any other mech with a trivially difficult to hit cockpit.

Other lights? How about a raven? Jenner IIC? Commando? Locust? Mist Lynx? Kit Fox? Adder? Cicada?

[Quintus Verus]

In no way is an Oxide P2W. It's limited ammo doesn't give it a very long field life. It's a lion picking off the feeble an slow at the edges of a heard. It doesn't take hits like a Spider/Wolfhoud/ACH. Even a locust has better hitboxes.

I fear the 4 SRM6 JR7-iiC much more than the Oxide.

Edited by Quintus Verus, 22 April 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Gyrok]

Quintus Verus, on 22 April 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

In no way is an Oxide P2W. It's limited ammo doesn't give it a very long field life. It's a lion picking off the feeble an slow at the edges of a heard. It doesn't take hits like a Spider/Wolfhoud/ACH. Even a locust has better hitboxes.

I fear the 4 SRM6 JR7-iiC much more than the Oxide.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1d74f4a5835c062

So ammo constrained...@ 140 kph, whatever will anyone ever do with only ~28 volleys and ~950 damage worth of SRMs on board?

Edited by Gyrok, 22 April 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

The big thing is, other mechs with JJs do have higher agility and can abuse terrain more aggressively to break LoS. Having said that, the Oxide has 16 DPS sustained and drops ~105 damage in 4 seconds (Fire-2 seconds-Fire-2 seconds-Fire). By comparison, it should be at heat cap or close by now. The reality is...it is not running hot. A laser vomit TW with a 54 alpha puts out 108 damage in the same span, but is now redlining heat.

See the point?

No, I dont see your point... Because you're comparing Energy Weapons, let alone Clan Energy Weapons, to InnerSphere Missiles. When the TBR gets done shooting his target 600+ meters away from relative safety with precise damage and switches to the Oxide that was forced to get within 150 just to use his own weapons... You can see why comparing an Energy Boat Clan Heavy to an SRM IS Light doesnt quite hold up. How about the 4xASRM6, 4xSmall Pulse Timberwolf with a 72 point alpha and 20.00 DPS that runs cooler, carries more ammo and has the added bonus of backup Energy weapons... Compare those two instead.

Quote

You could reduce the structure quirks some, and reduce the heat gen/cooldown some...and that would strike a nice compromise on both ends...but either way...it does need to be toned down. I do not mean that by pulling the plug on the amp...I am talking about turning the gain down from 8 to say...5.

The Oxide doesnt need to be 'toned down'. People need to get their gameplay 'turnt up'.

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1d74f4a5835c062

So ammo constrained...@ 140 kph, whatever will anyone ever do with only ~28 volleys and ~950 damage worth of SRMs on board?

Probably take less shots than someone with Lasers or more ammo would because 28 Shots with maximum potential of 967 Damage is actually not that much considering some of it isnt going to actually hit, or hit where you want it to. I run 3xSRM4, 1xSRM2 with 450 ammo and a 295XL, and I frequently run out of ammo. It's one of those things where you need to play it to know (Like most things), because reading it on paper gives no real idea or indication of the actual situation.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 22 April 2016 - 02:06 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

The WLF 1 & 2 are actually quite competitive with no JJs.

The 1 is best with either 5 MPLs and XL300 (speed advantage over FS9s and such), or 5 MLs and XL315.

The 2 is best with 6 MLs and XL295.

The big thing is, other mechs with JJs do have higher agility and can abuse terrain more aggressively to break LoS. Having said that, the Oxide has 16 DPS sustained and drops ~105 damage in 4 seconds (Fire-2 seconds-Fire-2 seconds-Fire). By comparison, it should be at heat cap or close by now. The reality is...it is not running hot. A laser vomit TW with a 54 alpha puts out 108 damage in the same span, but is now redlining heat.

See the point?

My position on this is the following:

I am ok with crazy DPS out of the oxide...but not with as much structure as it has currently.

The other option (less appealing as well, I think), is to leave the structure, and reduce the heat gen and SRM spread quirks.

You could reduce the structure quirks some, and reduce the heat gen/cooldown some...and that would strike a nice compromise on both ends...but either way...it does need to be toned down. I do not mean that by pulling the plug on the amp...I am talking about turning the gain down from 8 to say...5.

Ummm your comparing a Humanoid shape light mech to the Oxide. I am sorry, but the Oxide is FAR easier to take down than all humanoid light mechs who can actually spread damage.

Also when you fire a full volley of SRM's very rarely do ALL of them hit. After approximately 50 meters they start to spread. Even when I am legging an assault I will say 4 to 5 missiles will miss the legs unless I am literally able to reach out and touch them. I can not tell you how many times I see missiles flying through mechs legs that I am humping.

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1d74f4a5835c062

So ammo constrained...@ 140 kph, whatever will anyone ever do with only ~28 volleys and ~950 damage worth of SRMs on board?

Thats a piss poor Oxide build just for the record

Edited by Darian DelFord, 22 April 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Gyrok]

DrxAbstract, on 22 April 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

No, I dont see your point... Because you're comparing Energy Weapons, let alone Clan Energy Weapons, to InnerSphere Missiles. When the TBR gets done shooting his target 600+ meters away from relative safety with precise damage and switches to the Oxide that was forced to get within 150 just to use his own weapons... You can see why comparing an Energy Boat Clan Heavy to an SRM IS Light doesnt quite hold up. How about the 4xASRM6, 4xSmall Pulse Timberwolf with a 72 point alpha and 20.00 DPS that runs cooler, carries more ammo and has the added bonus of backup Energy weapons... Compare those two instead.




The Oxide doesnt need to be 'toned down'. People need to get their gameplay 'turnt up'.



Probably take less shots than someone with Lasers or more ammo would because 28 Shots with maximum potential of 967 Damage is actually not that much considering some of it isnt going to actually hit, or hit where you want it to. I run 3xSRM4, 1xSRM2 with 450 ammo and a 295XL, and I frequently run out of ammo. It's one of those things where you need to play it to know (Like most things), because reading it on paper gives no real idea or indication of the actual situation.

I have played it...like any ammo driven mech, you pick and choose shots...however...I rarely find I run out of ammo, and matches in the 500-600 range are not at all uncommon.

Maybe insinuating a skilled player is an incompetent pilot is not working out so well for you....?

[Darian DelFord]

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

I have played it...like any ammo driven mech, you pick and choose shots...however...I rarely find I run out of ammo, and matches in the 500-600 range are not at all uncommon.

Maybe insinuating a skilled player is an incompetent pilot is not working out so well for you....?

Then your dying way early, as I run out of ammo quite frequently, especially in a close match. AND I WAIT as long as I can before I actually engage knowing damn well my ammo is limited and I run with 500 or 550 rounds.

The problem with your last sentence Gyrok is as some of my vids show, even Tier 1 players are CLUELESS on how to deal with a light in behind them. That is where a lot of these cries for OP and nerf come from. Assault players who screwed up and got taken out because THEY made a mistake that a competent light pilot took advantage of.

Its funny in all of these threads I have posted some vids that show A LOT of the mistakes that lead to the death of an assault. Yet NO ONE has posted a vid of a OXIDE face tanking an assault and not dying in the process. Certainly not taking on 2 of them and living.

Interesting I think.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 22 April 2016 - 07:47 PM.

[Gyrok]

Darian DelFord, on 22 April 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

Then your dying way early, as I run out of ammo quite frequently, especially in a close match. AND I WAIT as long as I can before I actually engage knowing damn well my ammo is limited and I run with 500 or 550 rounds.

The problem with your last sentence Gyrok is as some of my vids show, even Tier 1 players are CLUELESS on how to deal with a light in behind them. That is where a lot of these cries for OP and nerf come from. Assault players who screwed up and got taken out because THEY made a mistake that a competent light pilot took advantage of.

Its funny in all of these threads I have posted some vids that show A LOT of the mistakes that lead to the death of an assault. Yet NO ONE has posted a vid of a OXIDE face tanking an assault and not dying in the process. Certainly not taking on 2 of them and living.

Interesting I think.

Because no bright light pilot face tanks a heavy/assault mech