819 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 09 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Which begs the question, which one is more worthy of being called:

A BattleTech Game

I'd rather have more ways to play the game personally..

AdamBaines, on 09 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

And we are done here.

Now that you know how its going to work you can make an informed opinion about it though.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

LMAO I have to laugh at the concern with poptarts in there. What's funnier still, is PGI's version does nothing to address 30 PPFLD alphas.

I call going from 40-damage (or more) PPFLD alphas to a maximum of 30-damage PPFLD alphas progress. That's at minimum a 25% reduction.

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

And before PPFLD was much more evil than hitscan lasers. I tend to roll my eyes at either statement. Its not really much harder to aim projectiles, and then you get nice PPFLD and don't have to hold on target for a second, which is a trade off. It doesn't really matter that AC5s are heavier. You can put 4 AC5s on a heavy mech, vs 58 damage worth of lasers. That's the end result, even though they are heavier, you can still squeeze 4 in with enough ammo, and you don't need DHS. Right now they are close with slightly different roles, after Energy Draw, 4 AC5s will be the CLEAR winner, regardless of the hit to speed.

Once again, the Black Widow cares not for the "tradeoffs" of ballistics, and can't hear those downsides over its monster DPS.

Lights don't really get effected by this, except for Clan lights that can no longer mount 6 cSPL without penalty. Like I indicated, its more about heavies and assaults that are going to get absolutely wrecked if they are energy boats.

If it makes the Dire Star impossible, great. Will it make the 4 LL STK obsolete or just the 6 LL STK.

The 4 LL STK is an excellent mech, the 6 LL STK is basically exploiting the system.

This new energy draw/pool is an awesome addition that could make MechWarrior Online gameplay epic, because its good now.

The whiners will be spamming the forums, but what wont be heard is the tons of players that left because of the exploiting that has gone on ruining the TTK of Battletech.

Edited by Johnny Z, 09 August 2016 - 08:58 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Johnny Z, on 09 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

If it makes the Dire Star impossible, great. Will it make the 4 LL STK obsolete or just the 6 LL STK.

The 4 LL STK is an excellent mech, the 6 LL STK is basically exploiting the system.

This new energy draw/pool is an awesome addition that could make MechWarrior Online gameplay epic, because its good now.

6 LL STK will be just as effective as it is now actually.

Any laser boat that already goes between two groups of lasers will be just as good. But that Stalker has been obsolete for a while.

And it is much more likely that it will make gameplay one sided and dull.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 August 2016 - 08:59 AM.

[Jerry Beard]

Yes....

[dervishx5]

Yeah the Stalker will see a comeback. Just comes down to timing your fire.

[Gas Guzzler]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Yeah the Stalker will see a comeback. Just comes down to timing your fire.

Uhhh I don't know about that, its too slow. Sounds like a nice slow target to harvest damage from with AC5s.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Signal27, on 09 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

Because lasers are "hitscan" weapons while ballistics and missiles have an actual projectile you have to calculate a "lead" for if the target is moving at all.

Lasers are also not PPFLD unlike ballistics, they already have their trade off, and guess which gets used more in the tourney client (and this is before the rescale and further nerfs to the best of the laser boats). I'll give you a hint, its dakka/PPCs/Gauss.

Signal27, on 09 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

That in of itself is a big deal for a lot of us. Also, lasers weigh a lot less and take up less space than ballistics.

Assaults and heavies have the tonnage to pull this off though, and are more heat efficient than if you tried to use lasers for DPS, making them more effective. Keep in mind heavies and assaults are currently the most powerful weight classes, so nerfing lasers is more of a nerf to lights/mediums, well that and any heavy or assault that was unfortunate enough to be an energy boat (aka, a lot of them).

Basically it exacerbates the chasm between good mechs and bad mechs on the heavy/assault side, nerfs and medium hoping to compete with the 2 ERPPC Hunchback poptart or dakka Hunchback and hurts one of the most competitive light builds.

Johnny Z, on 09 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

The 4 LL STK is an bad mech

FTFY, it isn't even relevant these days anyway.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 09 August 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I call going from 40-damage (or more) PPFLD alphas to a maximum of 30-damage PPFLD alphas progress. That's at minimum a 25% reduction.

Well, that post by Homeless Bill was talking about 30 pt PPFLD alphas

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 09 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

If it makes the Dire Star impossible, great.

Ummm, it won't make the Dire Star impossible, it will just blow up after one shot, kinda of like it does now.......seriously, its like the 6 PPC Stalker all over again, except the Dire Star is even more worthless.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

Lasers are also not PPFLD unlike ballistics, they already have their trade off, and guess which gets used more in the tourney client (and this is before the rescale and further nerfs to the best of the laser boats). I'll give you a hint, its dakka/PPCs/Gauss.

I just really want to emphasize this bolded section.. I don't think people realize this.

[Chuck Jager]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Okay, if you can't do more than 30 damage at a time with laser, why stack enough lasers to do 60 damage, and then fire them in volleys when you could just take a different mech with 4-5 AC5s and jack up your DPS, heat efficiency, AND have PPFLD?

DPS is a factor of balance and that's fine. Up front damage is ALSO a factor of balance, and is a counter to DPS. So what happens when you take up front damage a

Has nothing to do with realism, has everything to do with the fact that an AC5 is infinitely better than a ML. Energy draw limits you at 6MLs, or 6 AC5s. What is more deadly? It all comes back to the fact that lasers need to have the ability to do up front damage to be balanced, otherwise they have nothing on ballistics, or even PPFLD alphas. Remember when the Timber Wolf came out, it took 54-61 damage of lasers to be competitive with 35 PPFLD damage from 2 ER PPCs and Gauss. In the tournament build of this game right now, it takes 58 damage of lasers on a Black Knight to be on par with 20 damage from 4 AC5s of a Black Widow ( they nerfed both of them in the live servers so I'm not 100% sure where they stand now, I haven't played them that much). Do you see that trend though? Lasers need damage to be good, AC5s make do with much smaller alphas.

5 damage for 1 ton on a ml (also1 ton heatsink)
5 damage for 8 tons on a uac (also 2 tons ammo)

40 tons of weapons should always be better than 10 tons

The 58 damage of lasers on a Black Knight to be on par with 20 damage from 4 AC5s of a Black Widow comparison is better. If it is true, we may go back to more pinpoint damage until that gets nerfed or they figure it out on test server.

You are correct many of the best builds may bite it, but oh well longer ttk and more reward for exposing your self is still better than currently. I have a feeling many of the worst builds may also not be as hampered. If I have to switch mechs, builds and factions I will. I think I learned this in the first 2 months of playing online games especially pvp.

[Johnny Z]

Fine then what is everyone complaining about then. If none of these laser boats are effected whats the big deal? How can players say energy boats will be obsolete in one breath and the next they wont be effected.

Edited by Johnny Z, 09 August 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[JaxRiot]

AnTi90d, on 14 June 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

I wish they'd just, at least, attempted to use the existing TT heatscale penalties.

The #1 thing I hear people ***** about, on the subject of meta-alphawarriors, is that they corner peek, alpha and then pull back. TT heatscale gives massive movement penalties to hot mechs, so they'd corner peek, alpha and then be so hot they'd creep back so slowly they'd get shot multiple times.

The whole reason people are even able to alpha and keep moving is because PGI never considered implementing TT heat penalties.. and the heat cap is way too high.. and heatsinks shouldn't raise the cap.

I didn't like ghost heat; I think it's a terrible idea and I think power draw will be another terrible idea. I just want to play a FPS Battletech game like MW4 but with better graphics. I feel this hairbrained invention takes us further away from Battletech for no reason other than PGI's assumed hatred for Battletech rules and their combination of pride and arrogance that they assume they have all the answers and don't need any community input.

Ya this guy gets it.

Im not even sure why they even call MWO a Battletech game. Besides the art and the name labels, its hardly like Battletech at all.

Im not sure exactly how Power Draw is going to work, but I have been looking forward to it since it was first discussed. I tire of Alpha Strike Online.

I was really hoping Power Draw was going to be in this Road Map, but now its looking like we wont see it for at least 6 more months. That makes Jax sad.

I dont know why it takes PGI soooo loooong to implement the much needed things, but yet pump out Mech Packs faster than breeding rabbits.

But alas, by the time Power Draw makes it to the game, HBS will have probably launched their Battletech game (a real Battletech game) and I will be able to get my Battletech fix someplace else.

Edited by JaxRiot, 09 August 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[Signal27]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

And before PPFLD was much more evil than hitscan lasers. I tend to roll my eyes at either statement. Its not really much harder to aim projectiles, and then you get nice PPFLD and don't have to hold on target for a second, which is a trade off. It doesn't really matter that AC5s are heavier. You can put 4 AC5s on a heavy mech, vs 58 damage worth of lasers. That's the end result, even though they are heavier, you can still squeeze 4 in with enough ammo, and you don't need DHS. Right now they are close with slightly different roles, after Energy Draw, 4 AC5s will be the CLEAR winner, regardless of the hit to speed.

Once again, the Black Widow cares not for the "tradeoffs" of ballistics, and can't hear those downsides over its monster DPS.

This is if you only think that mechs will always just stare at each other while holding perfectly still on a big open field - Then yes, the big-DPS autocannons will reign supreme. But it's not always like that nor is it going to be. Right now, I actually pilot some of those 60+ alpha laser vomit boats you are vigorously defending. And all I have to do is pop out from behind a corner, dump my alpha, and roll back into cover. The DPS boat can't answer that so long as they are held at bay by team mates or I can reposition my mech before he can charge and close the difference. So, if this power draw thing comes to pass, you know what I'm going to do? Remove some of the lasers and replace them with heat sinks. Will this work? I don't know - which goes back to I'd rather wait and actually test this in play then be so cocksure it's going to fail because of the way it sounds on paper.

Quote

Lights don't really get effected by this, except for Clan lights that can no longer mount 6 cSPL without penalty. Like I indicated, its more about heavies and assaults that are going to get absolutely wrecked if they are energy boats.

I wouldn't say "completely wrecked." I'd more say "tweaked." I seriously doubt this plan, by how it sounds on paper, is going to forever relegate lasers to the trash pile. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

Well, that post by Homeless Bill was talking about 30 pt PPFLD alphas

Does that mean I can have those poptarts back?

[dervishx5]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Uhhh I don't know about that, its too slow. Sounds like a nice slow target to harvest damage from with AC5s.

Well we'll see what the real competitive teams do with power draw if it comes to it. AC5 boats don't exactly scream speed either, and they're more of a brawling weapon than anything else. I don't think power draw is really going to limit the effectiveness of the rapid fire large laser mech.

A Black Knight was what, 21 points of damage from the LPL? If ghost heat goes away you can do pretty good with 4 LL.

Time will tell. It's rare when the DOA crowd is accurate.

Edited by dervishx5, 09 August 2016 - 09:09 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

Well, that post by Homeless Bill was talking about 30 pt PPFLD alphas

To be fair, his post is relatively out of date to the current meta, but considering it would get worse with new mechs and powercreep... you can only contain so much power before it is mindlessly easy to dish.

Also, Hoverjets™ killed the poptart meta for the most part.

[PhoenixFire55]

Imagine how much fun this game would be if you were only allowed to use MGs and Flamers on all mechs. Such amazing balance as well. So yeah, we need more crutches upon nerfs and more nerfs upon crutches until we get there.

As someone already asked on the forum ... "what are you going to cry about when better players will still kill you nearly instantly after energy draw gets implemented"?

Anyway ... PGI is so fkn stubborn at keeping their own idiotic heat capacity instead of cutting it in half its almost hilarious. So yeah, please add more arbirtary clueless bandaids, because as we all know a house of cards bandaids is so very stable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Chuck Jager, on 09 August 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

5 damage for 1 ton on a ml (also1 ton heatsink)
5 damage for 8 tons on a uac (also 2 tons ammo)

40 tons of weapons should always be better than 10 tons

You are forgetting the diminishing returns of adding high heat weapons, sure it is 10 tons of weapons, but it requires 30 tons of DHS to be near as efficient as the UAC in the DPS department, if not more. This is why you see many assaults stack the larger more heat efficient lasers like LPLs (if it is unfortunate enough to be energy based that is), because the tonnage trade-off for better heat efficiency is better.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 09:11 AM.