176 replies to this topic

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Lights have been in an awkward place since HSR got fixed and some mechs got hitbox passes (looking at you Firestarter, in 2015 you were the bane of my life now you aren't anywhere due to the Cheetah is the light crutch mech now). This cause the weakness of the class to become blatantly obvious in MWO's environment, namely information saturation makes it very tricky for a light mech to actually get anywhere near a mech, but, at the same time light mechs do retain a degree of firepower that is formidable, but, a lot more situational as the power in the game has creeped up to where you see Nova's punching the heart out of an atlas before they can fire their AC20 twice. I am not saying infotech would solve any issues with lights, but, it is an option and one I am not holding my breath for.

Lights used to be very powerful and really only manageable with pin point front loaded damage and praying that the server was merciful. Now? Light mechs are generally doing one of three things.

1) Exploding. That is it, nothing else, they just explode due to they got spotted and the enemy team fired at them, no more mech. (Yes there is a degree of survival here but roll with me.)

2) Running along the walls of HPG doing LL/LPL/PPC sniping and killing mechs too focused with the 11 other mechs that they can see (lack of Doritos is required for a light to survive, detection is death) and tend to rack up high damage, lots of assists, components destroyed and maybe a couple of kills due to enemy heavily hurt retreating right into their line of fire.

3) Waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and then running in when they see a hurt lone mech falling back where the rest of the enemy team isn't in a position to cover, swooping in and finishing them off with luck favoring them.

Light Mechs really need to be harder to detect if they aren't meant to support (like the Adder and Kitfox, though, Kitfox has ECM so that works out just fine as well) and instead are meant for closer in combat (like everything else). This would allow them to move in, assassinate, and then break contact. Currently the best lights are those already kitted out with Radar Derp, Seismic Sensors, so basically a mech already mastered by it's owner who has loved it for quite a while. Or the Arctic Cheetah due to how forgiving it is AND it generally has ECM allowing it to 'sneak' around. It also can do the latter two roles I described for lights really well with either 2xERLL build or 6xSPL build. But, yes, lights are very frail and require a lot of work to do well in. So do Phoenix Hawks, Cicada's, and Vindicators, though, not as much due to being light mediums they have more armor and pod space.

TL:DR; Lights are too situational at this time due to how easy it is to see one coming in, not saying they should be invisible (nobody likes being shot by an invisible tank or ship) but they need something to give them the edge and let them close to 400m far easier than hiding excessively or ERLL sniping.

[ComradeHavoc]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 20 July 2016 - 03:13 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Bush Hopper and I have noticed that the Leaderboard is bugged for some people, so some people can't find me on the Leaderboard. Maybe my account is bugged after being away for awhile?

I looked myself up, so now I can talk about Light mechs.

http://mwomercs.com/...75#entry5300075

Edited by Stone Wall, 20 July 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[Stone Wall]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 20 July 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

3) Waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and then running in when they see a hurt lone mech falling back where the rest of the enemy team isn't in a position to cover, swooping in and finishing them off with luck favoring them.

Light Mechs really need to be harder to detect if they aren't meant to support (like the Adder and Kitfox, though, Kitfox has ECM so that works out just fine as well) and instead are meant for closer in combat (like everything else). This would allow them to move in, assassinate, and then break contact. Currently the best lights are those already kitted out with Radar Derp, Seismic Sensors, so basically a mech already mastered by it's owner who has loved it for quite a while. Or the Arctic Cheetah due to how forgiving it is AND it generally has ECM allowing it to 'sneak' around. It also can do the latter two roles I described for lights really well with either 2xERLL build or 6xSPL build. But, yes, lights are very frail and require a lot of work to do well in. So do Phoenix Hawks, Cicada's, and Vindicators, though, not as much due to being light mediums they have more armor and pod space.

TL:DR; Lights are too situational at this time due to how easy it is to see one coming in, not saying they should be invisible (nobody likes being shot by an invisible tank or ship) but they need something to give them the edge and let them close to 400m far easier than hiding excessively or ERLL sniping.

Here's how I play my Jenner F:

On the Drop: I go as far left or right, usually with a wingmech or more to scout/kill their scout. Usually we run up on a scout solo and that makes the game 12-11.

At the Enemy: We either kill more that solo in or we get locks for the team/distract for our snipers. At this point, the other team is losing a few more mechs. Let's say the score is 12-8 us. Here is the crucial point for Light mechs. If they expose themselves too much, that score swings in the enemy's favor and you leave the game with petty damage and 0 kills.

Retreat: Since we are Light mechs, we disengage and run back along the hills and cover to our team. Here we destroy any Lights wrecking our team, regroup if needed, then change direction and flank the enemy's other side. This is usually where you kill snipers, LRMs, and AFK mechs. The score will be something like 8-2. Usually 1 mech is an ECMer running for its life and the other is doing the same or is an AFK mech.

That's about it.

[Sorbic]

You know what I find even funnier than the Locust (even the PB lol) getting beat with the nerf bat? That they felt the need to substantially nerf a mech which rarely posted good numbers compared to other larger mechs while thinking mechs like the Urbie were fine. I'm seriously not asking for much here PGI. Just un-nerf the Urbie or maybe do something about the silly 10 HS requirement.

Tens's out of line.
Make it nine!
lol

Edited by Sorbic, 20 July 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[Mekwarrior]

That approach to playing is only relevant to the largest maps because if you see any enemies from medium to far range even in a light it's heavy heavy damage. If you run into a scout like the shadow cat or MC only light packing streaks you are certain to loose or get very heavy damage.

Edited by Mekwarrior, 20 July 2016 - 07:04 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Stone Wall, on 20 July 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:

Here's how I play my Jenner F:

On the Drop: I go as far left or right, usually with a wingmech or more to scout/kill their scout. Usually we run up on a scout solo and that makes the game 12-11.

At the Enemy: We either kill more that solo in or we get locks for the team/distract for our snipers. At this point, the other team is losing a few more mechs. Let's say the score is 12-8 us. Here is the crucial point for Light mechs. If they expose themselves too much, that score swings in the enemy's favor and you leave the game with petty damage and 0 kills.

Retreat: Since we are Light mechs, we disengage and run back along the hills and cover to our team. Here we destroy any Lights wrecking our team, regroup if needed, then change direction and flank the enemy's other side. This is usually where you kill snipers, LRMs, and AFK mechs. The score will be something like 8-2. Usually 1 mech is an ECMer running for its life and the other is doing the same or is an AFK mech.

That's about it.

The problem is a lot of that will not work once you get to people who know how to aim. I can assure you.... let the dual Guass Dual ER PPC mechs see you. The moment its charged your dead. Once you hit Tier 3 or 2 and your matched against Tier 1.... lights life expectancy once spotted goes down significantly.

Mekwarrior, on 20 July 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

That approach to playing is only relevant to the largest maps because if you see any enemies from medium to far range even in a light it's heavy heavy damage. If you run into a scout like the shadow cat or MC only light packing streaks you are certain to loose or get very heavy damage.

He gets it... but I have to admit... I have not seen an OXIDE with streaks in years.

[Mekwarrior]

The shadow cat with streaks is always there waiting to destroy any lights still playing.

[AWOL 01]

Sigh...

After arguing about this on the forums all day yesterday, I decided to see if I was wrong and check if Lights really are too fragile/slow/big to play anymore. I mastered and elited my Wolfhounds and took my Panther out for a spin and I'm thoroughly convinced that the people complaining on the forums either don't know how to play Lights or don't play at all and just enjoy whining on the forums...

I was consistently the top scorer in my lance, and sometimes the entire team. So I am honestly at a loss for what the heck everyone is talking about on here.

EDIT:
I forgot, I also ran the WLF-1A and -1 stock and left STD engines in all of them.

Edited by AWOL 01, 20 July 2016 - 08:55 AM.

[Hal Greaves]

Here's how to win with a light mech:


1) Wait 3 minutes after match start to go anywhere
2) Once enemy mechs are engaged with your team, join the battle
3) Find juicy open components while mechs are distracted
4) ???
5) 500-600 damage, 3-4 kills profit!


On a serious note, I'm actually being pretty serious. Situational awareness and just kind of hanging out for a bit will allow you to go far with a light mech.

[Y E O N N E]

AWOL 01, on 20 July 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Sigh...

After arguing about this on the forums all day yesterday, I decided to see if I was wrong and check if Lights really are too fragile/slow/big to play anymore. I mastered and elited my Wolfhounds and took my Panther out for a spin and I'm thoroughly convinced that the people complaining on the forums either don't know how to play Lights or don't play at all and just enjoy whining on the forums...

Did it occur to you that you are in semi-potato tier playing with potatoes? Did it also ever cross your mind that some of us play in competitive private drops that have class restrictions and that we'd rather not be compelled to have one or two players per team be so fragile that they can't meaningfully contribute during the game?

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 20 July 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[Chrome Magnus]

AWOL 01, on 20 July 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Sigh...

After arguing about this on the forums all day yesterday, I decided to see if I was wrong and check if Lights really are too fragile/slow/big to play anymore. I mastered and elited my Wolfhounds and took my Panther out for a spin and I'm thoroughly convinced that the people complaining on the forums either don't know how to play Lights or don't play at all and just enjoy whining on the forums...

I was consistently the top scorer in my lance, and sometimes the entire team. So I am honestly at a loss for what the heck everyone is talking about on here.

EDIT:
I forgot, I also ran the WLF-1A and -1 stock and left STD engines in all of them.

A handful of games means little. Plus I can hop in a laser Treb or a Dragon and consistently outscore my lance and often the team. Hell, even in a Vindicator. Doesn't mean it's a good mech... Not to mention that someone climbing through T3 can often wreck face in whatever they want.

And it's not that mechs like Locusts can't perform, it's that they were already at a disadvantage and got nerfed because of whining from other players who throw fits when killed by one. Usually because they developed tunnel vision.

Edit: Hell, it wouldn't have even bugged me if they had made a small adjustment but they slapped the crap out of some of them.

Edited by Chrome Magnus, 20 July 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Drunken Skull]

Traditionally Light mechs are used for training purposes and scouting missions (usually the only mission offered to trainee's), as they are cheap to repair and replace.

The death toll for light mech pilots is higher than that of any other weight class, and any seasoned MechWarrior found piloting a light mech is referred to as "suicidal". The primary goal of a Light mech pilot is to save enough C-Bills/Gain promotion, so as to be able to pilot something larger.

It is fitting that they should die fast.

IMO working slightly as intended, needs tweaking. A single LRM20 salvo should be sufficient for ending the life of a light mech, and if one is struck by a single ERLLSR they SHOULD feel the burn, it's a frigging light mech after all... not a mini atlas on gummyberry juice...

Only greenhorns and Solaris wanna-bee's should be piloting them...

Edited by Drunken Skull, 20 July 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Mekwarrior, on 19 July 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

Light mechs such as the Jenners and fast mechs such as the Cicadas (and probably many others too) are just so extremely weak and easy to hit that they are almost useless except for perhaps an MC artillery/air strike spinner and then only from very long range but that isn't what I want to play Mechwarrior for.

In the scout role if you even see any enemies you get such heavy damage that you are not much use in the rest of the game.

Players of heavier mechs know that the lights are very weak indeed because they always target them first to get an easy kill.

I want a fast or light mech that is actually useful to play the game, not just launch MC strikes because it's too weak for anything else.

Please PGI do something to improve light mechs such as an armour upgrade and don't forget the Cicada which is supposed to be heavier but seems just as fragile.

I am talking about in General quick play gameplay.


I think I know how lights and fast mechs got nerfed so terribly. Lots of medium/heavy/assault players alt tab into the game a couple of minutes late or more after their team is out of sight and they run into 2 lights and they are destroyed after a while so they go on the forum and rage and complain, so they nerf lights so they can't even win in this situation.

Light and medium mechs are fine as an experienced pilot against legit players.

Topic closed.

Mekwarrior, on 20 July 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

The shadow cat with streaks is always there waiting to destroy any lights still playing.

Clan streaks are a balance problem since day 1 and still are.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 July 2016 - 10:38 AM.

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

Mekwarrior, on 19 July 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

Light mechs such as the Jenners and fast mechs such as the Cicadas (and probably many others too) are just so extremely weak and easy to hit that they are almost useless except for perhaps an MC artillery/air strike spinner and then only from very long range but that isn't what I want to play Mechwarrior for.

In the scout role if you even see any enemies you get such heavy damage that you are not much use in the rest of the game.

Players of heavier mechs know that the lights are very weak indeed because they always target them first to get an easy kill.

I want a fast or light mech that is actually useful to play the game, not just launch MC strikes because it's too weak for anything else.

Please PGI do something to improve light mechs such as an armour upgrade and don't forget the Cicada which is supposed to be heavier but seems just as fragile.

I am talking about in General quick play gameplay.


I think I know how lights and fast mechs got nerfed so terribly. Lots of medium/heavy/assault players alt tab into the game a couple of minutes late or more after their team is out of sight and they run into 2 lights and they are destroyed after a while so they go on the forum and rage and complain, so they nerf lights so they can't even win in this situation.

I challenge you to Mech Combat.

I'll be in my RVN-3L and you can get in an Atlas for all I care...

My money's on, that it won't go well for you.

[Coolant]

Mekwarrior, on 19 July 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

I think I know how lights and fast mechs got nerfed so terribly. Lots of medium/heavy/assault players alt tab into the game a couple of minutes late or more after their team is out of sight and they run into 2 lights and they are destroyed after a while so they go on the forum and rage and complain, so they nerf lights so they can't even win in this situation.

You offer zero evidence of this therefore it can be ignored.

I admit I don't have a problem with cicada's. They seem to take damage like they are supposed to, other lighter mechs don't seem to.

[Siegegun]

L3mming2, on 20 July 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

yet your score in them is herendous... for al 7 maches played...

7 matches is hardly a great sample size. I have also played more games than that in a light since the scale change, especially counting in FW. And I never claimed to be Mr. OP light pilot. I will say I have played the game for years and I have almost mastered every light in the game, including every light hero except the Ember. Sure all that requires is time put in, but I have done that. I have played lights and continue to play them regularly.

[operatorZ]

Mekwarrior, on 19 July 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

Lights can scout once, then if they are not destroyed they are so badly damaged that they can only cap as long as they don't get within range of any other mech for the rest of the game.

To the OP, Mr. Mekwarrior.

I don't have a fix for lights; neither does PGI as they are working under the design system based on weight and tonnage; in which lights will always be at a disadvantage. Why don't you try some fast mediums for your play style? They should offer similar scouting fun while also being more durable. Just a suggestion. Trying to get lights to be buffed to the levels of being able to "trade" with mechs of a higher weight just simply isn't happening. I don't see PGI reversing thier scaling or returning ungodly buffs to the light class regardless of the many threads.

Best Regards,

operatorZ

Not a light pilot, or a light complainer, just a man living within the realities of the game he plays.

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

Mekwarrior, on 19 July 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

In the scout role if you even see any enemies you get such heavy damage that you are not much use in the rest of the game.

If you take that much damage while scouting, you're doing it wrong.

[Weeny Machine]

operatorZ, on 20 July 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

To the OP, Mr. Mekwarrior.

I don't have a fix for lights; neither does PGI as they are working under the design system based on weight and tonnage; in which lights will always be at a disadvantage. Why don't you try some fast mediums for your play style? They should offer similar scouting fun while also being more durable. Just a suggestion. Trying to get lights to be buffed to the levels of being able to "trade" with mechs of a higher weight just simply isn't happening. I don't see PGI reversing thier scaling or returning ungodly buffs to the light class regardless of the many threads.

Best Regards,

operatorZ

Not a light pilot, or a light complainer, just a man living within the realities of the game he plays.

Maybe they should start to remove some of the bloated agility buffs of other classes then?

And yes, you are right with changing class. I started to play mediums about 2 weeks ago. In many regards this is the solution. First you have a chassis with more potential which even shares the same movement archtype of the 35t mechs and hopefully the light queue will drop even further (however, I doubt PGI gives a darn about it.)

Actually I doubt this game will significantly change before the plug is pulled.