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Luthien Is Doomed


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#61 OrichalcumMalleus

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 10:37 AM

View PostHelsbane, on 15 October 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Had a guy on our team that was straight outta the depths of tier 9 last night. Ran around in his Raven for the first three waves claiming he was 'spotting' and babbling into his mic the entire time. He was still on his first ride while the rest of us got ready for our fourth assault into VF. I admittedly took it upon myself to get that guy into his second mech by whatever means were at my disposal. At match end, there were seven of us over 1500 dmg with 4+ kills, while our 'spotter' did a whopping 59 points of damage total, probably by accident.

As long as scrublets like that are allowed into FW, the results will be the same.


Yikes.

#62 Anhydrite

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 10:59 AM

View PostHelsbane, on 15 October 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Had a guy on our team that was straight outta the depths of tier 9 last night. Ran around in his Raven for the first three waves claiming he was 'spotting' and babbling into his mic the entire time. He was still on his first ride while the rest of us got ready for our fourth assault into VF. I admittedly took it upon myself to get that guy into his second mech by whatever means were at my disposal. At match end, there were seven of us over 1500 dmg with 4+ kills, while our 'spotter' did a whopping 59 points of damage total, probably by accident.

As long as scrublets like that are allowed into FW, the results will be the same.


Well, if nobody had LURMS then he was bad. But if the 7 others got 1500 damage due to LURMS then he was successful.

I lasted an entire borieal vault defense match in a Locust PB and contributed a significant amount. I talked on coms and held locks for 2 lurm boats and watched about 15 mechs get melted by LRMs. Do I get any credit for that damage. No. Do those kills count as assist...nope. All I get is shot up by enemy when noticed. We did so good the clans never got to our main base area. Most of them died less then half way between gate and base.

That is how you use a scout.

Before I get yelled at......I realize this Teir 9 guy dropped in a light first on the attack side. That is straight up stupid unless you are a light god. I use my light either 3rd or last on attack.

#63 MischiefSC

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 11:04 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 14 October 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

FP so much lost potential
so many lost opportunities

the whole time the try hard mantra get gud plays in the background



Git Gud should be a mantra you repeat about everything in your life. I'm not sure anyone ever seriously says "I'm going to spend time on this thing, but I'm only going to he bad at it. Yes, being good at it requires only a fraction more effort than being bad, but that's a fraction more than I'm willing to do - as I spend hundreds of total hours and an embarrassing amount of money on it".

However it is a truly legendary amount of wasted potential.

#64 Anhydrite

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 11:12 AM

I only have time to commit to 1 game. Even with the limited play I do I still am not Good. Been playing for 1 year and just made Tier 2. I think I have a positive kill/death ratio on 1 mech only. Surprised to see it was the ButterBee. I always felt it underperformed?

If I put in more time to Git Gud my wife would not be happy. I may drop this game and start Elite Dangerous instead, or I could play The Long Dark story mode. Either way, there is only time for 1 game and the time I do have means I will forever be PUG.

I also like IS not because of Lore. I just seem to enjoy IS mechs more. I hardly play the clan mechs I have when I play.

#65 Spheroid

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 11:38 AM

@Mischeif: Would not your personal mantra have you attempt to "get gud" playing Davion instead of joining your oppressors?

Unless you have loyalty maxed all the rewards for the five houses why play clan? If everone acts on the rational decision to go where winning is most favorable then you are left with one side greatly underpopulated.

What is your goal exactly? To out leaderboard, maximize c-bills or affect territorial change? To understand the psychology of clubbers is the first step to carroting or sticking you into a faction configuration that serves a greater design. The functioning of a proper community warfare model holds greater importance than the exploits of a single unit. Step outside yourself.


(On Edit) The above comes off as a little hot headed. Perhaps as an initial compromise we can petition for same techbase match making so that potatoes can drop against potatoes as well as against Clan-premades. Nothing would change save the frequency of those stomps and it would work regardless of population distribution.

Edited by Spheroid, 15 October 2017 - 12:21 PM.


#66 Damnedtroll

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 12:25 PM

Didn't seen a lot of big teams on the IS side playing again... that's the main problem. We need some kind of limitation on contracted merc per faction to balance things up.

Against a big team with coordinated play, drop-deck and build you cannot win ( or rarely) if your not in the same boat IS or Clan.It seem that they are to much big teams on clan side again so they win the event. Sure you can have faster mech with good payload on clan side and it's easier for tactics but damn, if we don't have clan vs clan warfare and we just have clan team... it's clubbing.

#67 MischiefSC

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 03:55 PM

View PostSpheroid, on 15 October 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

@Mischeif: Would not your personal mantra have you attempt to "get gud" playing Davion instead of joining your oppressors?

Unless you have loyalty maxed all the rewards for the five houses why play clan? If everone acts on the rational decision to go where winning is most favorable then you are left with one side greatly underpopulated.

What is your goal exactly? To out leaderboard, maximize c-bills or affect territorial change? To understand the psychology of clubbers is the first step to carroting or sticking you into a faction configuration that serves a greater design. The functioning of a proper community warfare model holds greater importance than the exploits of a single unit. Step outside yourself.


(On Edit) The above comes off as a little hot headed. Perhaps as an initial compromise we can petition for same techbase match making so that potatoes can drop against potatoes as well as against Clan-premades. Nothing would change save the frequency of those stomps and it would work regardless of population distribution.


Not hot headed at all. All perfectly reasonable. I worked hard on Git Gud in Davion. Have said and will always say there's some great players there (or were, I think a lot quit the game). However a lot of getting better involves playing with the best players you can. I traveled around a lot, played with a lot of teams and groups and KCom was good people who won, well, all the time. At the time they were mercs right before the KDK was released and balance was pretty good so switched IS/Clan pretty often.

At no point do I, or any good player in any team or faction I've ever played with, ever looked for or wanted to "club seals". That whole concept exists only and completely in the heads of victim complex people. There is no "socially advantaged" people in MWO. KCom doesn't win because they were born to wealthy families or went to special schools. There's nothing, at all, available to KCom that isn't available to every single other player. Which is what makes Git Gud such any easy and worthwhile pursuit here - it's literally 90% will, 10% skill and 0% opportunity.

Play with your team, bring good mechs, try to make good choices. Learning good teamwork, what constitutes a good build and what are good choices in MWO is like 99% of the skill piece. Being willing to learn that information and put your ego aside and accept you don't have all the answers yourself is 99% of the "will" piece. "Do your best, always try to get better" has nothing at all with "clubbing seals". It's irrelevant of who you play against.

"Seal clubbing" happens because some people absolutely refuse to adapt to FW as not being QP, show up and try to play it like QP with bad mechs. Git Gud means you look at that and say "I lost, clearly I was doing something wrong. I should figure out what I did wrong, what I can do better and do that. I should also see who I can learn from to improve". Baby Seals say "ZOMG so unfair! You brought good mechs and used teamwork! That's an IMPOSSIBLE LEVEL OF EFFORT. You should a have to stop and the game should be changed until I can keep doing exactly what I've always done but win more!"

I play with KCom all the time. I talk to all of them in TS. In any given night half to a third of the people in channel are not even KCom, since we happily drop with anyone who isn't a jerk in TS. The majority of times we talk about the other team it's usually wondering if they would be offended if we gave them some advice. The reality is that we can't say anything, at all, or they get offended. Nobody is wanting to "club seals". They just want to play their best and shoot stompy robots. They would be helpful in chat but that tends to create even more rage, so we stay quiet.

#68 riffraff777

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 05:32 PM

I'm wondering if a lot of players simply aren't participating. I've been in MWO a little over a year now and haven't done much FW. I stayed freelance because I just don't really have that much of a grasp of the system. Lately (since the summer loot bag event) I don't see ANY call to arms alerts. Last year they popped up constantly, two or more at a time. All of my notifications are on, it's just like you don't see them anymore. Has participation dropped THAT low?

#69 MischiefSC

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 05:55 PM

View Postriffraff302, on 15 October 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

I'm wondering if a lot of players simply aren't participating. I've been in MWO a little over a year now and haven't done much FW. I stayed freelance because I just don't really have that much of a grasp of the system. Lately (since the summer loot bag event) I don't see ANY call to arms alerts. Last year they popped up constantly, two or more at a time. All of my notifications are on, it's just like you don't see them anymore. Has participation dropped THAT low?


I personally kniw hundreds of players who played FW every single day who've quit over LT and 1 Bukkit plus perpetual bad IS/Clan balance issues coming back (it was briefly better, then re-broken).

Several hundred, who in turn were leaving because people they knew were quitting over the same issues and the clarity that PGI was never going to make anything of FW like original promises.

So, yeah. Huge decline.

#70 Commander A9

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:06 PM

https://mwomercs.com...enough-whining/

Still relevant...

#71 Nightbird

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:07 PM

I don't really think it's as simple as git gud.

Part of game design is a proper ramp up for newbies. There is just too much of a gap between QP Tier 1 and FP, not to mention you don't even need to be in Tier 1 to play FP. Some sort of system to give and receive a handicap, that would allow teams of differing skill levels to play together, can reduce the clubbing feel. Sure, a good team with 120 ton drop decks will still win, but at the end of the match the pug team knows they were outplayed.

#72 Keith66AH

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:29 PM

Balance will never be achieved the way PGI is trying to do it. They keep nerfing weapons and mechs, when population is the problem, and time zones. ANy sort of progress that is made is gone and surpassed by the European players. More people play clans, and why not? Better gear. As it should be, the problem with the balance in that regard is the number of fielded mechs, and the answer to that big ol balance issue is in the LORE. That dirty thing nobody likes to talk about.
Matches for FW should be 10v12 or 36v 48, and for scouting 4v5. Clan p;layers only get to drop in 3 mechs with the same or less tonnage then the IS. To represent the batchall...
And as for nefing the weapons and mechs, perhaps reset the stuff to 0 and start over instead of trying to fix a broken system. With no accurate baseline to begin with your just guessing at what works and what doesn't.
Lastly... Machine gun mechs like crazy and you release one more? That is all you will see in scouting and in FW now.. its going to end badly and youll drive off your players. Unless that was the plan....

And for that whole time zone issue.. run separate servers or something....or multiple servers so the IS has an actual chance to win anything.... in the end it will be everyone playing clans running around in pirhannas machine gunning down ghost drops....

Edited by Keith66AH, 15 October 2017 - 06:31 PM.


#73 Commander A9

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:39 PM

Why Keith? Why should they be 10-12? PGI doesn't care about lore, they only care about profit-they're a business, businesses exist to make money. It won't address the problem of people complaining that 'there's no matchmaker' and 'units farm pugs.' In the end, people will still just keep screaming at unit players and ejecting from mechs the moment the game starts to avoid what they perceive to be as wasting their time.

Given how Clan mechs have been so hideously nerfed to the ground, you'd have to restore Clan mechs to their former performance levels they maintained upon release before PGI even considers the prospect of 10-12.

If no one played the game, but people kept buying mech packs, they'd be perfectly content with that.

It's not the mechs - it's pilot skill. Look no further than the leaderboards. We don't need artificial buffs to one side to 'help anyone win' when pilot skill should decide a win or a loss, hands down.

You know why people complain that 'lore' isn't being followed? Because they want Clans to lose by default as compensation for otherwise losing to Clans on the battlefield.

Edited by Commander A9, 15 October 2017 - 06:47 PM.


#74 MischiefSC

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:43 PM

View PostNightbird, on 15 October 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

I don't really think it's as simple as git gud.

Part of game design is a proper ramp up for newbies. There is just too much of a gap between QP Tier 1 and FP, not to mention you don't even need to be in Tier 1 to play FP. Some sort of system to give and receive a handicap, that would allow teams of differing skill levels to play together, can reduce the clubbing feel. Sure, a good team with 120 ton drop decks will still win, but at the end of the match the pug team knows they were outplayed.


Better is to offer steep rewards for teams to play teams, a way to wait for teams to match with and rewards for teams to drop with some (2-6) pugs to help new players learn.

#75 Khalcruth

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 08:19 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 15 October 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

At no point do I, or any good player in any team or faction I've ever played with, ever looked for or wanted to "club seals".


You know, you keep saying that, over and over again, but since

a) you know if you keep going clans, it's going to happen

and

b) you keep going clans,

it's pretty much completely impossible to believe in your sincerity. Your words say one thing, but your actions say the exact opposite thing. I just object to the dishonesty.

Edit - I hate automatic emoticons

Edited by Khalcruth, 15 October 2017 - 08:20 PM.


#76 Nightbird

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 08:25 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 15 October 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

Better is to offer steep rewards for teams to play teams, a way to wait for teams to match with and rewards for teams to drop with some (2-6) pugs to help new players learn.


Teams playing teams requires population. Dropping to help pugs requires an algorithm to determine who pugs are. We have neither.

#77 A Shoddy Rental Mech

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 10:53 PM

The "Git Gud" mantra kills me.

HHOD is the only I.S. "loyalist" unit in the top 20.

Look at how many of the top "merc" units went Clan Loyalist in the last ~90 days.

I wonder why they didn't go I.S.?
Is it the better mechs?
Is it the better weapons?
It it the better pugs?
Is it the better rewards?
Are they all that afraid of Kcom?
If you can't beat em git gud, join em?


Posted Image

There is no amount of "git gud" for the I.S. that can compensate for how (faction) stacked the (drop) deck is against the I.S.

#78 Meaphet

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 11:08 PM

And lets face it, the only reason HHOD are up there is because they've played a staggering 14k games, considering there are people up there with 76...

#79 MischiefSC

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 12:30 AM

View PostKhalcruth, on 15 October 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:


You know, you keep saying that, over and over again, but since

a) you know if you keep going clans, it's going to happen

and

B) you keep going clans,

it's pretty much completely impossible to believe in your sincerity. Your words say one thing, but your actions say the exact opposite thing. I just object to the dishonesty.

Edit - I hate automatic emoticons


I don't control where the unit goes.

KCom has gone both IS and Clans, repeatedly, before deciding to go Loyalist Steel Viper because everyone is maxed in just about every existing faction plus merc. The 3 new Clan factions are pretty much the only place we can go to still get LP and for some people that's better than nothing, as actual factions don't mean anything anymore.

Beside which there's not a lot of reason to play the side that's clearly at a tech disadvantage. KCom still won consistently when we were mercs and switching from Clan to IS regularly however most people don't want to play the inferior tech. Why would they?

So if I understand your logic, good players on good teams who want to practice what works best should... intentionally play with actively inferior mechs and builds, because.... reasons?

The myth that playing a game with a handicap makes you better is a myth. An exercise in ego. You practice what works best with the best tools. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Even if tech got balanced tomorrow a number of long time merc units will still stay Clans because the only way to get any LP while playing and the mech bays that provides (which many members of many units still need) is to play factions they haven't already maxed out (or close enough to be relevant) LP in. Which is why everyone has asked for a revamp of the LP system so that you're not punished for doing something like, say, being a faction loyalist or switching from Clans to IS just to get more drops even with a tech disadvantage.

The idea that teams switch factions to avoid playing other teams is simply wrong. I've played with many of the best teams at one point or another. Nobody there wants to avoid good fights - quite the opposite. The desire to once again try to attribute to everyone else some nefarious motive or level of coordination that isn't there (there's no coordination at all in any way between units. At all. Ever. Not since like FW 1 and 2, when they played Space Nerd Politics) to invent some evil conspiracy to play against pugs... it's pretty silly.

Teams go Clans because Clan tech is better. Game balance is off and has gotten worse since the nerf to IS tech around the KDK release. Then 3 new Clans with the associated new LP rewards came out. Look at how many matches KCom has played; same with all the big units. The players play a lot and as such already reached a practical limit on LP rewards for almost every existing faction.

There is a sort of an avalanche effect though - IS pugs at this point are so terrible that no one unit can win enough matches fast enough to actually tag worlds and get MC. The MC involved is pretty tiny, however there's so little depth and purpose to FW that people tend to look for whatever rewards you can get. So if for example KCom went to IS they literally could not win matches fast enough to tag worlds. It happened the last time we went IS, before the new Clan factions opened up. Won just about every match (though we did lose more often in IS than we do in clans. Not hugely, but a bit. Like I said, the tech is flat out inferior overall in a group v group environment) however we tagged nothing in that timeframe and it's disheartening to win every single match and still see the side you're fighting for losing 3 matches for every one you win.

If you've ever actually read anything I've posted or anything any KCom officer has posted you'd know there's few people in the game more interested in balanced tech and reworked FW to help fix population balances. We want big rewards for loyalists, we want IS to be just as appealing as Clans, we want LP stuff fixed and we want to feel like if we switch IS to Clan and back every single week we can enjoy both sides as much as the other.

At least half the unit as far as I would guess would enjoy playing IS, a lot of us like how IS mechs play overall, just there's a lot of negatives in that column right now. Inferior tech overall (which is annoying to play, not that you can't win but it's like walking up hill both ways all the time), the pugs have no interest in playing to the team most the time so we can only drop with 12 or you spend every match fighting half your own team being stupid (sometimes on purpose just to spite you), because of all the stated issues you'll never tag anything. Also not getting the 'new pool of LP reward' options in rewards, so not getting those 2 extra mech bays.

The pluses is getting to play the other half of the mechs you own, some change and variety and no wait time for drops.

While there's a few people in every unit who don't care about LP or XP or CBills or the like because they have a mountain of each (I'm one of those) not everyone does. Some are newer players, some never spend real $ on stuff so always need more bays, etc. So you go with what benefits the unit overall. I trust Pat to make the best decisions for the team, that's why he's a good leader and a part of what makes a good unit.

'Clubbing seals' never comes into it. Never has. I get that people want to pretend that any time they lose or someone else is consistently winning that it's done intentionally just to ruin their fun the reality is that everyone in every team that wins regularly is just wanting to play the game and have fun. Competitive players will always seek to play the good mechs, the good tech and where they can practice and improve with the best tools. Thus when balance is off (like it is now) you'll get a dogpile. That's something PGI needs to fix. The 6-8 drops a night KCom does isn't going to massively swing FW either way. It's flattering I'm sure that some people seem to think so but that's got nothing to do with reality.

#80 MischiefSC

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 12:35 AM

View PostThe Nerf Bat, on 15 October 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

The "Git Gud" mantra kills me.

HHOD is the only I.S. "loyalist" unit in the top 20.

Look at how many of the top "merc" units went Clan Loyalist in the last ~90 days.

I wonder why they didn't go I.S.?
Is it the better mechs?
Is it the better weapons?
It it the better pugs?
Is it the better rewards?
Are they all that afraid of Kcom?
If you can't beat em git gud, join em?


Posted Image

There is no amount of "git gud" for the I.S. that can compensate for how (faction) stacked the (drop) deck is against the I.S.


It used to be that Davion had 4 - 6 units on that front page and there were several other IS units there. It's not that they switched or went merc though....

it's that they pretty much all quit. C4, 31HR, SRoT, 6RNT, RRB, that's just right off the top of my head. 1 Bukkit came, being an IS loyalist got brutally punished (some more) and so they quit. Factions meant nothing and everything they'd been doing to keep entertained for the last couple of years got removed, so they quit. Or broke up or faded away.

The IS units that used to still play regularly either quit, fell apart or broke up or are only a fraction of former membership. Many went to merc units.





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