831 replies to this topic

[Enduar]

Making this all-or-nothing is drastic and unnecessary. At least make it so that it only occasionally cuts the team sizes down to 8. If anything I've been wondering when the tech will allow 16v16 teams- this just seems like taking steps backwards to stall for time without actually addressing any of the issues with actual, tangible gameplay changes that *we have a choice in*.

Over all I am entirely opposed to cutting down team sizes and think it will only cripple the parts of the game I actually do like (larger maps, grander overall stategy, etc). Why don't you actually implement group-control stuff like AOE damage to stop death-balls being so viable and break combat up into smaller portions, instead of doing half-baked non-fixes like this that only seem to put us back to where we started?

Edit:

Also, despite the fact that MWO's maps are already buried in a backlog of work- being outdated, bugged, or unbalanced... you instead are considering pursuing an option that would further set things back, requiring nearly all the current maps to be cut down and re-balanced for the 8 man team setup? You guys barely release new maps as it is, while the gameplay gets more and more stale on what we do have, and we'd likely have to wait even longer before the next release while the maps we currently have get content cut out for the new size requirements? I have serious doubts that the pay off of this change outweighs the amount of work and backtracking required to make it work and I can't help but feel that this is ultimately a shot in the dark bandaid-fix that won't remotely solve any of the issues it claims to solve in any noticeable way.

Edited by Enduar, 07 June 2018 - 02:05 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Liam Wolf, on 06 June 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

For you probably when you started losing more and now you think you will win more with 8v8 but that is unlikely.

Actually, I got better with age, but my one and only 8-kill game was in beta. Nowadays, a good game is 4-6 kills, simply because I accumulate more damage faster and you've got the same HP as before, only 33% more people have a chance to shoot you at any given time.

The odds of one target being gang-fired to death before their weapons recycle more than once is greater in 12v12 than 8v8, and the potency of a deathball is higher and tougher to pick apart. As for carrying?



Meh. That was within the last week, BTW.

The only difference is that in 8v8, there's more likely going to be someone capable of going the distance, or at least enough to cause the enemy team to lose cohesion. That's what I see these days, and 8v8 at least means more people get a chance to be the hero (not even mentioning the match rate naturally increases with 8v8)- there's precious few people that will legit Death Star a team. There's a modest number that can Ace of Spades one. There's a respectable number who can Johnny Five, and so on. Most people generate 1-2 kills per match at best. 8v8 will also magnify THEIR efforts and make them feel like they're actually doing something. Heck, in 8v8, they will be.

[KodiakGW]

Stop debating people. It's not nearly 100% Yes, so it is not going to change. They already made it quite clear that unless the poll it overwhelmingly in favor, it won't.

At least they addressed it without me having to promise buying anything. Glad to save my money.

[Elizander]

It might be too complicated to maintain both systems side-by-side, but I think it would be good if the game could work with both in QP. If I had to lean one way or another, I have to say I got used to 12v12 and the maps might feel too big for having less mechs in it. At the very least some spawn adjustments and objective locations might be in order.

I do notice that my FPS in Solaris 1v1 is about the same as with 12v12 for the most part, so I do not think that 8v8 will actually drastically improve my game's performance on my potato PC.

I'd say stick with 12v12 and work on something more interesting.

• The game was already at 8v8 and switched to 12v12.
  
• Map designs are for 12v12
  
• Rewards are for 12v12
  
• Going back-and-forth switching between the same features over the years isn't really what I'd call progress.

I am quite sure that as developers you can come up with something more interesting for the players than just reducing match size from 12 to 8.

[Brain Cancer]

Manicus, on 06 June 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

I am one of those beta players. And while I had fun, I am having MORE fun in QP with 12v12. It’s easier to ask friends to play when they don’t feel as pressured. Or would you prefer to make the game less newbie friendly, lose playerbase, and have the game die?

I'm all for leaving group queue 12v12, where you can bring your friends and do whatever you please. I think solo QP should drop to 8v8, and frankly, watching the sheep get sheared the past week or so tells me the new player experience is going to be garbage regardless.

But at least they'll last longer in 8v8. The number of times I've watched a scrubby player that never should have left the newbie sandbox run straight out into the field, eat fire from six directions at once and simply keel over and disconnect is painful.

And I'm in T1. Supposedly, this means all I should be seeing are players with tons of experience that would never do something so foolish repeatedly, right? But I don't, because the PSR system promotes them regardless of quality. That in itself is a big chunk of the matchmaker fail, but if I can't NOT have those newbies in veteran's uniforms, I'd at least like to give them less chances to be massacred because they happened to cross the line of the enemy team for a few moments.

Go ahead, have your big 12v12 games. I've done my group playtime with KONG/GONK enough to know what happens when you get enough guns pointed at a target and how many people it takes to instakill/cripple pretty much anyone. Even those clumsy newbies will run into those situations less often in 8v8, and maybe, just maybe live through the mistake at least once because there's fewer guns and lighter chassis spraying them down. Because we can't adjust how much damage someone takes to die significantly enough, but we can change the match size so it takes longer for that amount of damage to accumulate on average.

[Kelbor]

There is enough people interested in 8v8 to say lets bring up the PTS with no changes but group size and see what feels better after a week or two. I really don't believe the dynamics of deathballing, or potatoes, or your Mech'god players (Bow before the power of the MECH'GODS!) will change much. What will change is the objective side of the game. What will conquest play out like, or domination? Imagine what Escort would look like? Assault, well, will still probability still be assault.

[Mikayshen]

Kelbor, on 06 June 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

There is enough people interested in 8v8 to say lets bring up the PTS with no changes but group size and see what feels better after a week or two.

The problem with that idea is that anyone not interested in 8v8 has no reason to go to the PTR so results will be heavily skewed.

[Skexy]

Honestly, I kinda feel like this is one of those 'grass is always greener' type questions. I definitely prefer the smaller maps which would be a necessity with 8v8, so if things do switch, all maps would have to be revisited, and old the old versions of frozen city, river city and forest colony should be revisited.

[Talgehurst]

An 8v8 mode added to quick play would be a welcome addition, but I wouldn’t remove 12v12 to do so. Faction Play has such a high barrier to entry that not having a 12v12 mode to practice mechs In that scale will cause more problems to FP than it fixes. We’d also be looking at a meta shift that severely limits the already small pool of mid line/support lights and mediums. There is room for them in a 12v12 environment, but harder to imagine them in a 8v8 having fewer heavy or assaults to draw attention. The up coming Incubus mech looks to fall in that mid line light category, and while it could very well be a great light for FP, are players going to want to run it through a game mode it is ill suited for in order to eventually play it where it works? And even then be taking those hours of one game mode’s play style into one that’s widely different and relearn the mech.

TL;DR

Add 8v8 to QP. Keep 12v12 in QP. It’ll help both QP and FP in the long run.

[Imperius]

Skexy, on 06 June 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

Honestly, I kinda feel like this is one of those 'grass is always greener' type questions. I definitely prefer the smaller maps which would be a necessity with 8v8, so if things do switch, all maps would have to be revisited, and old the old versions of frozen city, river city and forest colony should be revisited.

Why? Just a hunch? You still would play the same small areas of the map you usually play in.

Anyone have deathmaps availble somewhere? I thought they used to show that.

Old post but shows it don’t matter.

https://mwomercs.com...76324-heatmaps/

Edited by Imperius, 06 June 2018 - 08:04 PM.

[Omnipotent Khan]

8v8 might be interesting, but I really want to see a Free-For-All minimum 8 player Solaris game mode, that doesn't have to be ranked, or maybe it is. Either way, massive free for all mech combat was in Mech 4 Mercs Solaris. And it was awesome.

[Imperius]

Omnipotent Khan, on 06 June 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

8v8 might be interesting, but I really want to see a Free-For-All minimum 8 player Solaris game mode, that doesn't have to be ranked, or maybe it is. Either way, massive free for all mech combat was in Mech 4 Mercs Solaris. And it was awesome.

Anyone still playing Solaris? Off-topic a bit I’m curious though.

[Mikayshen]

Imperius, on 06 June 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

Anyone still playing Solaris? Off-topic a bit I’m curious though.

I play a half dozen or so matches a few times a week. It's not dead but it's somewhat quiet at times.

[Xhaleon]

Thinkgn of Polar Highlands; you could probably chop it up into quadrants to form four small maps that would fit 8v8. There are map elements like bases scattered throughout the map that rarely ever get used. On a tiny quick map that was originally a quadrant of the full Polar, those elements could become centerpieces of quickie games.

[Horseman]

Paul Inouye, on 06 June 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

1) Enter queue as group of 10.
2) System decides to switch to 8v8.
3) Might as well paint the livingroom while waiting.

What if Solo Queue is 8v8 while Group queue is 12v12?

[Jman5]

I like the larger 12v12 battles. I wouldn't be opposed to making group queue 8v8 since the population there is smaller, but I would like it if you keep solo queue at 12. I would rather you guys put your development time toward improving the 12v12 experience rather than reconfiguring MWO to work in an 8v8 environment.

[NARC BAIT]

less mechs to kill, means less score to make ....

I'd much rather you guys went for the 'full' game of 16v16, THAT THE ENGINE ALREADY SUPPORTS, hell who knows what you might find if you decide to spend some time doing ACTUAL optimisations!

solaris city might not have procedural trees that extend into the water, and teh edge of the map might not have thousands of 'apartment lights on' where there are no buildings .... how bout that

[50 50]

I'm not going to say no as there are some really good pros there, but I don't really understand why it needs to be a set limitation on team sizes.

So the big question I want to ask is "Why can't it be a dynamic team size?"

If one of the biggest problems we have in MWO is simply being able to get into a game within a reasonable time frame, wouldn't it be better to allow the team size to simply fluctuate according to available players?

ie.

Allow the match maker to start a game of 4v4, 8v8 or 12v12 depending on number of players waiting.
Yes it would exaggerate some of the pros and cons but it also allows variety in the matches in a way we have not had before.
I am also unsure that this would require changes for things like economy, maps, modes because the different game play experience from smaller team sizes would also create a different game mode experience. (Including Faction Play)
Wouldn't it be better to expand the variety of play in the matches?

I could see a number of benefits to a more dynamic system.

Without even doing any other UI, map or mode changes, could it be something that is trialed in the game for a week or so?
That is:
Run a 'Lance' event where the team maximum is 4v4.
Run a '2 Lance' event where the team maximum is 8v8.
See how it plays out.

The change to team size on the test server seemed like it could be done quickly, but being able to give it a go on the live server would cover the wider player base.

[VitriolicViolet]

if they go 8v8 that will be the end for me, i always liked 12v12.

i play solo, never GQ so i dont know about any of the supposed 12 Anni sync drops or whatever, but the core issue will be unresolved by reducing the players. Stomps are inevitable, a game which rewards focus fire will always be like this, the more mechs you have shooting one mech the better. if you lose a few mechs its practically all over, multiplicative firepower decimates whats left. this is an issue.

However 8v8 will not address this problem. its beyond rare, beyond rare, to have 12 mechs shooting one mech, hell even having 7 mechs shoot one is pretty unheard of (solo q not group) outside of CW. even there having more than 10 mechs shoot one isnt common.

i have no interest in making the game smaller, i had (naively) hoped this game would advance to the point of having 16v16 or more, not reducing it because the rest of the game is to hard to code.

Which brings me to my final point. as far as i can tell most people seem to want 8v8 due to the fact PGI couldnt balance their way out of a paper bag, not because it is inherently better or anything. kinda sad that simplifying the game is more viable and achievable than just balancing it

Edited: are people having problems getting games in a 'reasonable' time? and what is considered reasonable. i think anything under 5 minutes is fine personally.

Secondly, reducing bukkits doesnt work as we have seen before, the exact same as CW the reason people arent leaving isnt because of wait times, so trying to reduce them by reducing the amount of players at once wont help. it will be like CW all over again, they will reduce the number to attempt to alleviate wait times, causing some of those who liked it to leave, without addressing the core issues, the wait times will increase again. Leaving a mode that is smaller than before and has the same problems fundamentally.

Edited: I could accept solo queue staying 12v12 and group queue going 8v8 as i dont touch group queue

TL:DR 8v8 is a bandaid on a gunshot, it wont help and will likely make it messier later on

Edited by VitriolicViolet, 06 June 2018 - 08:33 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Imho the game worked best with 8vs8 and all of the original Maps were designed for it.

Maybe you can do an 8vs8 Event Weekend and gather the Feedback if poeple really want it happen...