130 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

pattonesque, on 08 September 2021 - 12:26 PM, said:

they got more agility just recently?

not really, some assaults got a stupid +2 +3 while most lights got 20+ accel decel rate

[Nightbird]

+2 +3 too many, time to nerf them back.

[John Bronco]

Are there any more jgx buddies that you're going to send over here to further astroturf the discussion?

I'd love to hear from Dario.

Edited by John Bronco, 08 September 2021 - 01:00 PM.

[FupDup]

D A T A, on 08 September 2021 - 12:44 PM, said:

not really, some assaults got a stupid +2 +3 while most lights got 20+ accel decel rate

That comparison is unfair because the starting values are way different, meaning that the +amount given is going to be different. Giving +3 to a light would be barely noticeable while giving +20 to an assault would be more than double in some cases. A more meaningful comparison would be to look at the % increase relative to the previous values (which I don't have on-hand).

And of course there's the thing where lights are supposed to have the best mobility of any class by a mile while assaults are generally supposed to have the worst (excluding outliers like the Gargles), especially 100-ton assaults with strong high-mounted dakka.

Edited by FupDup, 08 September 2021 - 01:05 PM.

[Vege]

This game became bad when someone decided that somehow lights had to be as good as assaults, and look at how comp 2020 went: a light med mpl fest, comp 7v7 2021 went no different, a SPL rush fest. Lights and meds now are even better than assaults

these lights and meds need a nerf and for sure the kodiak needs a buff

Edited by Vege, 08 September 2021 - 02:10 PM.

[John Bronco]

Vege, on 08 September 2021 - 02:09 PM, said:

This game became bad when someone decided that somehow lights had to be as good as assaults, and look at how comp 2020 went: a light med mpl fest, comp 7v7 2021 went no different, a SPL rush fest. Lights and meds now are even better than assaults

these lights and meds need a nerf and for sure the kodiak needs a buff

Fortunately comp is entirely irrelevant to balance, as very few play it. But if we were to entertain the notion, I'd simply note that multiple Div A teams in the last 7v7 decided the KDK-3 was good enough to put in their decks, and that was before the August buffs.

[pattonesque]

Vege, on 08 September 2021 - 02:09 PM, said:

Lights and meds now are even better than assaults

oh come on dude

[HauptmanT]

Assaults are supposed to be slow and ponderous. They are a portable mountain for real mechs to hide behind. The fact that they can shoot too, is an afterthought.

So For the K3, sure some armor buffs would be nice, in fact all the clanner assaults are weak on armor. When I look at my Atlas or my KonigsKrab, and see those armor numbers, then look at my clanners, it's almost embarrassing. I'm embarrassed for the clan assaults on that metric. But man you can do some wild things with them when it comes to shooting. Mainly from heatsinks only being 2 slots. This allows for more than a 50% increase in runnnable heatsinks, since it opens up legs and CT as heat sink positions. I've got some insane high alpha builds on clanner assaults, and it's glorious. Too bad they die as soon as somebody sees me.

I am a bad assault pilot. I mean that... I have one single assault chassis I do well in. The Marauder IIc. It's hitboxes are very forgiving, so I can be pretty consistent in those. But anything else, I'm lucky to get 3 shots off before my CT is bright red. Even the Atlas or KC with those insane armor quirks. I'm just a bullet magnet.

...however, I played the Kodiak3 just a week or so ago, and had a couple really good games. One was fantastic. 1200 dmg with my 4 lbx10s. Because I got sneaky with it, so didnt get shot at. So no... the K3 is not a bad mech. It's still one of the best assaults, so once again DATA was wrong on the internet. If I can do well with it, it's a good mech.

As far as lights, give them score for objectives, please, for the love of all life in the galaxy... Give them a reason to avoid fights and cap on conquest (or run batteries on insurection). All too often I see lights cap once then run off to die, instead of doing their job. All because they dont get rewarded for doing their job (other than a win bonus).

Edited by HauptmanT, 08 September 2021 - 03:24 PM.

[dario03]

John Bronco, on 08 September 2021 - 12:54 PM, said:

Are there any more jgx buddies that you're going to send over here to further astroturf the discussion?

I'd love to hear from Dario.

I think its alright. If it does need help I would go with putting a little bit more st armor on it. The agility is low but it also has very high mounted big guns and seems to perform.
I disagree with raising the minimum agility of the big assaults unless we also raised all the mechs in all the classes including the lights. From what I've seen the low agility assaults like the Kodiak and Anni have a lot of firepower and perform well. If the agility on them was high enough to where they can spread damage easily at almost all times or quickly peak and hide then they are just better heavies with a lower top speed.
Also while some assaults didn't get much in agility buffs others did, this is the case for all classes. And while the lights that did get faster accel/decel are helped by that, they are hurt by all the bigger mechs that got faster turn and twist speeds. That faster accel/decel on the light isn't helping when running full speed, but the faster twist/turn is helping the enemy to hit you.
So while something like a Kodiak might have a hard time tracking a very fast light, there are a lot of heavies and assaults that now don't. Though by percentage the Kodiak 3 itself was buffed quite a bit in its ability to track, and it of course has more firepower than the mechs that can track noticeably better.

[Monkey Lover]

FupDup, on 08 September 2021 - 01:03 PM, said:

That comparison is unfair because the starting values are way different, meaning that the +amount given is going to be different. Giving +3 to a light would be barely noticeable while giving +20 to an assault would be more than double in some cases. A more meaningful comparison would be to look at the % increase relative to the previous values (which I don't have on-hand).

And of course there's the thing where lights are supposed to have the best mobility of any class by a mile while assaults are generally supposed to have the worst (excluding outliers like the Gargles), especially 100-ton assaults with strong high-mounted dakka.

Assaults need double they were a lot funner to play before engine desync. These things are huge targets and focused hard. Only time they do well is when you out ton thre other team. This is a match maker issues not a 100ton mech issue.

You can look at my stats Im about as middle row as you can get. I would run a good light over a 100 ton mech any day.

Really giving these mechs 5-10% more armor in most cases means extra 30 seconds of play time or 1 extra shot.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 08 September 2021 - 09:29 PM.

[pbiggz]

Monkey Lover, on 08 September 2021 - 09:26 PM, said:

Assaults need double they were a lot funner to play before engine desync. These things are huge targets and focused hard. Only time they do well is when you out ton thre other team. This is a match maker issues not a 100ton mech issue.

You can look at my stats Im about as middle row as you can get. I would run a good light over a 100 ton mech any day.

Really giving these mechs 5-10% more armor in most cases means extra 30 seconds of play time or 1 extra shot.

While im not sure I agree with specific values here, and I dont want to get involved in the shouting match, I will say this.

I personally havent used a KDK 3 in a long time because it doesn't feel good to play to me. That is an anecdote. That said, a principal priority, im sure, for the Cauldron and PGI, is making sure people can play what they want, and for what they want to play to feel good.

We can probably discuss that without accusing each other of astroturfing or gas lighting.

[Nightbird]

Monkey Lover, on 08 September 2021 - 09:26 PM, said:

I would run a good light over a 100 ton mech any day.

I dunno, you seem to run lights the least. Actions not words my friend.

Edited by Nightbird, 09 September 2021 - 06:31 AM.

[GoodTry]

HauptmanT, on 08 September 2021 - 03:16 PM, said:

As far as lights, give them score for objectives, please, for the love of all life in the galaxy... Give them a reason to avoid fights and cap on conquest (or run batteries on insurection). All too often I see lights cap once then run off to die, instead of doing their job. All because they dont get rewarded for doing their job (other than a win bonus).

Please no. Extra score for "objectives" will just result in more people running off to do things other than fight. Also, unless scoring as a whole is revamped, winning by objective means that the rest of the team is screwed on score, and doesn't get to fight anything either.

Edited by GoodTry, 09 September 2021 - 09:22 AM.

[1453 R]

Stop.

Telling.

Light.

'Mechs.

Their.

Only.

Job.

Is.

To.

Scout.

Or.

Cap.

How many bleeding blurdy fragballing times am I going to have to say it? Light 'Mechs are just as much weapons of war as assault 'Mechs are. Telling light players "you don't ever get to shoot, we're taking all the weapons off your 'Mech and replacing them with cap accelerators and active probes instead" is a great way to never see a single light 'Mech again. Nobody wants to do that job. Nobody wants to be the assault jocks' pet recon drone. Light 'Mechs want to play the game as much as everybody else does. Assault jocks aren't going to get rid of their only significant weakness so easily as all that, so stop bloody trying.

[pattonesque]

1453 R, on 09 September 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

Stop.

Telling.

Light.

'Mechs.

Their.

Only.

Job.

Is.

To.

Scout.

Or.

Cap.

How many bleeding blurdy fragballing times am I going to have to say it? Light 'Mechs are just as much weapons of war as assault 'Mechs are. Telling light players "you don't ever get to shoot, we're taking all the weapons off your 'Mech and replacing them with cap accelerators and active probes instead" is a great way to never see a single light 'Mech again. Nobody wants to do that job. Nobody wants to be the assault jocks' pet recon drone. Light 'Mechs want to play the game as much as everybody else does. Assault jocks aren't going to get rid of their only significant weakness so easily as all that, so stop bloody trying.

I could, in theory, see a Mechwarrior game in which playing a (primarily) scout is rewarding. It's just in no way this one.

[1453 R]

pattonesque, on 09 September 2021 - 08:32 AM, said:

I could, in theory, see a Mechwarrior game in which playing a (primarily) scout is rewarding. It's just in no way this one.

It was called Chromehounds, and it was absolutely horrible.

[1453 R]

...heh. That's a hilarious thought.

Have drop decks based on C-Bill total, not tonnage. Suddenly all those old terrible Succession Wars-era primitive technologies are looking reeaaal attractive for squeezing in under the cap. Drop decks would still ruin this game, but man. That'd be funny as hell.

[CFC Conky]

___, on 09 September 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

its not fair when someone kills my 16 million Cbill assault with their 2 million cbill light. that is not balance

I've noticed that when someone makes a post complaining about light mechs killing their assault ride, they rarely describe the sequence of events leading up to their death.

When you go off on your own in your snipey assault mech, you're a snack to a light mech piloted by someone who knows what they are doing.

By the same token, teammates should try to protect their assault mechs, at least as far as the main battle area. That said, if you go left in your Direwhale/Kodiak/Atlas/etc while the whole team goes right, you are leaving yourself vulnerable, imho.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 09 September 2021 - 09:43 AM.

[1453 R]

Reasonably sure Underscore there was being sarcastic, CFC. But yes. Assault 'Mechs are usually their own worst enemy, and few of the people carping about "OP LYTES" are willing to look in the mirror and admit their own suck.

[pattonesque]

1453 R, on 09 September 2021 - 09:46 AM, said:

Reasonably sure Underscore there was being sarcastic, CFC. But yes. Assault 'Mechs are usually their own worst enemy, and few of the people carping about "OP LYTES" are willing to look in the mirror and admit their own suck.

"just shoot them"

"no"