629 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Remington1911, on 03 December 2021 - 01:44 PM, said:

Guys, do my ideas hold any water?

I like the idea of more collision damage. I like making guns feel as real as possible too but I'm not sure I like the suggestions about machine guns. But that's because I just enjoy realism and complexity in games, not because lights need nerfs.

The problem with your ideas in the current game is that they nerf lights which are already underpowered, so from a balancing perspective it makes no sense unless you also do other things that would buff lights relative to heavier mechs. Basically there is no balancing argument for making lights even weaker.

I understand that some things like lights and lrms or whatever can seem obnoxious or unbalanced to a new player (or a bad old players), but the truth is you have to get better at they game and be matched against better opponents before you can start to evaluate balance.

Give it 6 months or so, climb the tiers and get some coaching from veteran players if you struggle. Maybe join a unit and do some group drops. Get to at least tier 3 and preferably 1 or 2.Then see what you think about weight class balance, odds are your opinion will change significantly.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 December 2021 - 07:40 PM, said:

And that's kind of the limit we're up to, coding for an abandon-ware game engine. I mean, a good developer could learn it and do it, but that's an investment. and right now the game is coasting.

The decision to have physical attacks (to prepare 'Mech animations, hit detection, etc.) had to be made years ago, not now.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 05 December 2021 - 09:37 PM, said:

The decision to have physical attacks (to prepare 'Mech animations, hit detection, etc.) had to be made years ago, not now.

And I’m of the opinion that the game engine just doesn’t support it, which is why it was never done. It’s not that they can’t get the bones on the models to do it, it’s that the game engine doesn’t have the polish or smoothness for a finished product.

I mean the engine that runs MW5 allowed them to retrofit in some rather smooth looking punches. The bones can do it in that engine and do it smoothly. Although it is a client side single player game, rather than a server side multiplayer. That said, I wonder how the animations look on a multiplayer cooperative MW5 game… I’ve never tried that.

[RabidBeagles]

probably a stupid idea: what about torso twisting to kinda simulate a punch? it could be like the center-torso-to-legs command, maybe faster, so no need for new animations. but are assault arms low enough to effectively twist-punch a light?

Edit: (not that i have a problem with lights. just got carried away by the physical attacks idea)

Edited by RabidBeagles, 05 December 2021 - 11:10 PM.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 December 2021 - 10:23 PM, said:

And I’m of the opinion that the game engine just doesn’t support it, which is why it was never done. It’s not that they can’t get the bones on the models to do it, it’s that the game engine doesn’t have the polish or smoothness for a finished product.

I mean the engine that runs MW5 allowed them to retrofit in some rather smooth looking punches. The bones can do it in that engine and do it smoothly. Although it is a client side single player game, rather than a server side multiplayer. That said, I wonder how the animations look on a multiplayer cooperative MW5 game… I’ve never tried that.

The lack of punches is kinda unfortunate, since they would give some advantage to the 'Mechs with fixed arm actuators, such as the Atlas, Bansheeor the Thunderbolt. The Banshee was even designed with physical attacks in mind.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 06 December 2021 - 12:03 AM, said:

The lack of punches is kinda unfortunate, since they would give some advantage to the 'Mechs with fixed arm actuators, such as the Atlas, Bansheeor the Thunderbolt. The Banshee was even designed with physical attacks in mind.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 06 December 2021 - 12:24 PM, said:

Something what we will never see in MWO.

[Blood Rose]

Here is a thought I have been having - why not let mechs with lower arm actuators raise their arms? Why not let them stretch their arms out a bit, flattening at the elbow and raising them. They can do that in TT.

[MrMadguy]

That's, how Tier 4 matches should look like for Tier 3 player in case of proper matchmaking:

Edited by MrMadguy, 06 December 2021 - 11:25 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

You are asking for a statistically very-low outcome rate the majority of the time.

This is not logical or reasonable.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 06 December 2021 - 11:24 PM, said:

That's, how Tier 4 matches should look like for Tier 3 player in case of proper matchmaking:

Tier 3 encompasses the largest part of the MWO player base. There are some players just barely outside Tier 4 and some other players one step from Tier 2.

[Curccu]

MrMadguy, on 06 December 2021 - 11:24 PM, said:

That's, how Tier 4 matches should look like for Tier 3 player in case of proper matchmaking:

Spoiler

Would you still think so if you were Ian Janowski? He is high T4 or T3... same as you.
And how long do you think you you are gonna stay in tier3 ( You have actually dropped down to 4 as you posted this.) if you would start constantly scoring 3.5 times your current average matchscore?

[MrMadguy]

Curccu, on 07 December 2021 - 03:57 AM, said:

Would you still think so if you were Ian Janowski? He is high T4 or T3... same as you.
And how long do you think you you are gonna stay in tier3 ( You have actually dropped down to 4 as you posted this.) if you would start constantly scoring 3.5 times your current average matchscore?

That's, what I call Tier fluctuations. They suggest, that something is fundamentally wrong with current matchmaking. Because rating distribution should be more or less even and matchmaker should prefer players with closest skills. Such fluctuations suggest, that once I advance to Tier 3 - some sort of discrete rating change happens, that can only be one thing. Yeah. Adding Tier 1 players to matchmaking pool. And their ratings are way too far from mine. I just can't believe, that matchmaker can't find anybody suitable between bottom of Tier 3 and Tier 1 to fill just 23 slots in one match.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 December 2021 - 07:39 AM.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 07 December 2021 - 07:34 AM, said:

That's, what I call Tier fluctuations. They suggest, that something is fundamentally wrong with current matchmaking. Because rating distribution should be more or less even and matchmaker should prefer players with closest skills. Such fluctuations suggest, that once I advance to Tier 3 - some sort of discrete rating change happens, that can only be one thing. Yeah. Adding Tier 1 players to matchmaking pool. And their ratings are way too far from my. I just can't believe, that matchmaker can't find anybody suitable between bottom of Tier 3 and Tier 1.

Seems to me like you have no earthly clue what you're talking about. The matchmaker isn't some ideal statistical model that exists only in theory, it's matching actual humans that don't necessarily fit into your fantasy world. Not everyone logs in at the same time. Not everyone who is currently in a tier actually belongs there. Some tier 3 players are rocketing upwards to tier 1. They'll overperform until they hit tier 1. Some players, like you barely scratch tier 3 because they've made no meaningful attempt to improve their skills since 2013, and instead spend their time on the forums alleging the current matchmaker is part of a vast competitive conspiracy to farm you, because "your losses can't possibly be a result of your own choices, malevolent outside actors have to be acting against you."

This lack of understanding is highlit by this post. This is exactly what we've been talking about.

MrMadguy, on 06 December 2021 - 11:24 PM, said:

That's, how Tier 4 matches should look like for Tier 3 player in case of proper matchmaking:

You want 1000 damage games. All the time. You don't want a challenge. You don't want to be matched against players of equal skill. You want seals to club. You are exactly what you claim to be against, you just don't have the guts to admit it, or perhaps the wherewithal to realize it. I can't tell exactly which.

[GoodTry]

MrMadguy, on 07 December 2021 - 07:34 AM, said:

That's, what I call Tier fluctuations. They suggest, that something is fundamentally wrong with current matchmaking. Because rating distribution should be more or less even and matchmaker should prefer players with closest skills. Such fluctuations suggest, that once I advance to Tier 3 - some sort of discrete rating change happens, that can only be one thing. Yeah. Adding Tier 1 players to matchmaking pool. And their ratings are way too far from mine. I just can't believe, that matchmaker can't find anybody suitable between bottom of Tier 3 and Tier 1 to fill just 23 slots in one match.

"Tier fluctuations" show that the matchmaker is doing what it is supposed to. When your tier goes up, the games get harder and you score lower, so your tier goes down again.

How else would it work?

[YueFei]

pbiggz, on 07 December 2021 - 07:41 AM, said:

You want 1000 damage games. All the time. You don't want a challenge. You don't want to be matched against players of equal skill. You want seals to club. You are exactly what you claim to be against, you just don't have the guts to admit it, or perhaps the wherewithal to realize it. I can't tell exactly which.

Got it in 1.
It's classic projection at play here.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 07 December 2021 - 07:34 AM, said:

....
Such fluctuations suggest, that once I advance to Tier 3 - some sort of discrete rating change happens, that can only be one thing. Yeah. Adding Tier 1 players to matchmaking pool. And their ratings are way too far from mine. I just can't believe, that matchmaker can't find anybody suitable between bottom of Tier 3 and Tier 1 to fill just 23 slots in one match.

Do you really think that the matchmaker targets specifically "you", whenever you cross the border between Tier 4 and Tier 3?

How is it possible that some other players reach Tier 3 - and stay there indefinitely?

[MrMadguy]

Ask yourself simple question. What is difference between top Tier 4 and bottom Tier 3 players?

[Brauer]

MrMadguy, on 08 December 2021 - 07:13 AM, said:

Ask yourself simple question. What is difference between top Tier 4 and bottom Tier 3 players?

Spoiler: one group (T3s) can be matched against T1s and T2s, the other can't.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Brauer, on 08 December 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

Spoiler: one group (T3s) can be matched against T1s and T2s, the other can't.

Not entirely accurate. Even without groups wonking up the formula, a T4 is far less likely to encounter a T1, but its not impossible, it just takes the matchmaker really scraping the bottom of the barrel. If there were only 24 players online, the matchmaker would put them in a match, T1 through T5. The more players online, the less likely the high and low tiers are to mix.