227 replies to this topic

[Alaric Howard]

Almost half the posts I've seen around here seem to be about how terrible clan tech will be for MWO if it's introduced. One way or another it's coming people. Mad Dogs, Timber Wolves, Dire Wolves, Summoners, and I'm sure half a dozen others will be there at about the time they should be. There would not be a progressing calander otherwise. Have a little faith that things will balance out somehow. Maybe Clan tech will be rare, super-expensive, or something of that nature. Maybe double heat sinks will actually end up being one-and-a-half heat sinks or ER Large Lasers won't quite go out to twenty hexes. Maybe all mechs will be omnis in practice as far as upgrades, switching weapons, etc. goes. It's all conjecture as has been mentioned earlier. I guess I just don't like people bashing something we honestly haven't got a clue about right now.

I like to think that people are honest in expressing their concerns for what they are, but I can't help but feel that some of these posts simply come from clan-haters who had one of those rules-lawyer friends in the tabletop game that played Jade Falcon and ruined all clans for them. We all know a guy like that in either D&D, Warhammer, or your choice of dice and rule books games. Or maybe they themselves are the rules-lawyers who complain about Blood Asps and Warhawks being OPed despite significant differences in battle value from many of their Inner Sphere counterparts. Even still, a lucky crit can demolish a Fafnir's Heavy Gauss just as easily as the three four clan pilot can be pulverized in the wreck of his Nova Cat's cockpit by that remaining Gauss.

[Triordinant]

I personally believe the Clans should be purely non-player character PvE enemies, but that their mechs and technology should slowly become available to Inner Sphere players as we capture and study them.

[Jakob Knight]

Alaric Howard, on 13 September 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Almost half the posts I've seen around here seem to be about how terrible clan tech will be for MWO if it's introduced. One way or another it's coming people. Mad Dogs, Timber Wolves, Dire Wolves, Summoners, and I'm sure half a dozen others will be there at about the time they should be. There would not be a progressing calander otherwise. Have a little faith that things will balance out somehow. Maybe Clan tech will be rare, super-expensive, or something of that nature. Maybe double heat sinks will actually end up being one-and-a-half heat sinks or ER Large Lasers won't quite go out to twenty hexes. Maybe all mechs will be omnis in practice as far as upgrades, switching weapons, etc. goes. It's all conjecture as has been mentioned earlier. I guess I just don't like people bashing something we honestly haven't got a clue about right now.

I like to think that people are honest in expressing their concerns for what they are, but I can't help but feel that some of these posts simply come from clan-haters who had one of those rules-lawyer friends in the tabletop game that played Jade Falcon and ruined all clans for them. We all know a guy like that in either D&D, Warhammer, or your choice of dice and rule books games. Or maybe they themselves are the rules-lawyers who complain about Blood Asps and Warhawks being OPed despite significant differences in battle value from many of their Inner Sphere counterparts. Even still, a lucky crit can demolish a Fafnir's Heavy Gauss just as easily as the three four clan pilot can be pulverized in the wreck of his Nova Cat's cockpit by that remaining Gauss.

First off, while the -CLANS- may be introduced into MWO along with the designs of their mechs, there is no evidence the -TECH- people associate with them will be. The devs could just as easily put in a Timberwolf with the stats of a Rakshasa, and it would be a Timberwolf in MWO, requiring no balancing and/or control. This is, in fact, the best way they could do so, as it would allow Clan players to have their identity as Clansmen without the crutch of their technology, which isn't supportable in a game like MWO that is purely PVP.

Second off, I admit to being a Clan hater, but only because of the number of players I see who are looking at the Clans with drooling mouths because of the -advantages- they offer in tech. They care nothing (or it is only of secondary importance) for the Clan background, fighting style, or traditions, as that is all 'stupid RP stuff', and only want the benefits of calling themselves Clan without any of the penalties or requirements that should be forced on them. I don't hate the -Clans- so much as I hate the Clantech and Clan fanbois, who have done far more to cause 'Clan hate' than anyone or anything else by decrying MWO and bombarding the forums from the earliest days because there aren't any Clan mechs in it.

True Clan players, who will play their Clan true to what being that Clan is, regardless of if they have the tech to go with it, I have no problems with, and would welcome the Clans into the game on that basis. However, this remains something I have yet to believe will be the case.

So don't think that all players who want to see the Clans kept out of MWO are bigots. Some of us just know what kind of players are in the game, and how uncontrollable any introduction of their tech to the game will be.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 31 October 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[CCC Dober]

I believe the misfits you are speaking of are indeed part of the reason that PGI disallowed players to take over popular IS characters, units and houses. The same thing is likely going to happen when the Clans arrive. When both tech bases are mixed, that's where the problems begin.

The good news is that both IS and Clans don't mingle in that respect so it's easier to balance content. Of course there are notable exceptions, like Archer Christifori, but again, they are connected with certain characters, units and events. Given that background, we should be pretty safe from munchkins and I'm looking forward to what the devs got in store for us.

[Ashla Mason]

Part of playing clans is the tech advantage, but as I've said numerous times Jakob Knight, the reason why Clan tech is so good (from a gameplay standpoint) is that it balances out their rule set.

Like, have you actually done any research into how clan honor levels work? I'll tell you straight up that when Clan warriors are fighting at Honor level one against an enemy that outnumbers you borders on impossible, Hell, even with lesser honor levels applied it's one hell of an up hill slog.

And before you say "But the players will just ignore honor!" let me point out that the developers have already talked about having some sort of enforcement/reward system based on it that will discourage the power gamers from playing around with it for too long.

[Ashla Mason]

CCC Dober, on 31 October 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

When both tech bases are mixed, that's where the problems begin.

The worst thing that can happen in my mind is to have players getting their hands on clan mechs and playing with IS street fight style.

No one wants that.

[CCC Dober]

Yeah, but don't forget that Zellbrigen is not the most robust set of rules. In fact it takes just an error of judgement and the fight degrades into a free for all. Given a certain reputation, some units or Clans are declared dezgra by default and that makes the way Clans fight no different than the IS does. This is part of their way and an aspect that many seem to forget. When the gloves come off, Clans fight just as dirty as the next mercenary, although they'd kill you if you'd even hint at that.

I just hope the tech base keeps people from cherry picking their way to the top. The rules of engagement are easier to bend or break than making hardware work from a different tech base.

[Ashla Mason]

CCC Dober, on 31 October 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Yeah, but don't forget that Zellbrigen is not the most robust set of rules. In fact it takes just an error of judgement and the fight degrades into a free for all. Given a certain reputation, some units or Clans are declared dezgra by default and that makes the way Clans fight no different than the IS does. This is part of their way and an aspect that many seem to forget. When the gloves come off, Clans fight just as dirty as the next mercenary, although they'd kill you if you'd even hint at that.

I just hope the tech base keeps people from cherry picking their way to the top. The rules of engagement are easier to bend or break than making hardware work from a different tech base.

Struck the part about how many people forget it since no one can mention clan honor rules/zell without a million people popping there heads out from beneath the nearest rock to point out that the rules aren't inviolate

that having been said, players would be a lot more wary of violating the rules of engagement (E.G. No physical combat, no attacking someone elses target, no indirect fire, etc.) if the clan's currency system was tied to it. Don't want to play honorably? That's fine, enjoy the lack of repairs and ammunition.

[Gremlich Johns]

Do not forget that adherence to Honor rules vary among the Clans, as do their interpretations of said rules. Can there be a "one "ring" to rule them all and in the darkness bind them?"

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 31 October 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[CCC Dober]

You don't have to strike that. I've seen people in here idolize their way of war and never mention this openly or at all. Likewise the Clan haters always pick on that fact and cry foul. If they cared to learn a bit about the culture and way of war ...

Btw Clan Warriors do not seem to have a need for currency if you follow the novels. At least not in the same way IS pilots have. All they have is rank and honor and both of them are high maintenance. It's not exactly the same thing in the IS.

I don't know if the devs want to differentiate both global factions in such a way, but it would help them a lot in terms of balance. If you take a look at IS prices for Clan equipment, it's rather obvious that the latter isn't meant to be widespread, or used at all, in the IS. Likewise you don't see IS 'technology' used much in Clan space, except in Solahma units and usually only after bringing it up to Clan standards (read: upgrades).

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Yeah, but don't forget that Zellbrigen is not the most robust set of rules. In fact it takes just an error of judgement and the fight degrades into a free for all. Given a certain reputation, some units or Clans are declared dezgra by default and that makes the way Clans fight no different than the IS does. This is part of their way and an aspect that many seem to forget. When the gloves come off, Clans fight just as dirty as the next mercenary, although they'd kill you if you'd even hint at that.

I just hope the tech base keeps people from cherry picking their way to the top. The rules of engagement are easier to bend or break than making hardware work from a different tech base.

Incorrect. It IS a robust set of rules. If A happens, do B. If Y happens, do Z. There are honor levels for that exact purpose; to dictate the actions of Clan warriors in a specific set of conditions. It covers everything. You can hint at it all you want, surat because the ones who know are content with the knowledge. If you act one way, you get treated one way. If you act another way you get crushed underfoot.

[Jakob Knight]

They can't even keep players from TKing right now. I don't see how they will stop more arbitrary actions such as a Clan team purposefully causing a breach in Zellbriggen in order to be free of any constraints.

While I am hopefully they can do it, I know that many video gamers live to find ways to exploit game features and get around any restrictions. Time will tell, but since every IS vrs Clan confrontation will involve Grand Melee conditions, I think the final mechanisms for play in MWO will have to be different than the 'official' code of honor combat. Most likely, the Clan players will be forced to fight single-target and without aid, regardless of their opponent's actions, as this is the easiest to code (check to see if all targets are only damaged by one mech).

Ultimately, it will be a ways off, so the dev team has to get the more immediate issues with the game set up before worrying about Clans. I do think that Clan players who won't play without Clan tech are not worthy to -be- Clan, but that is my own opinion.

[Ashla Mason]

CCC Dober, on 31 October 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

Btw Clan Warriors do not seem to have a need for currency if you follow the novels. At least not in the same way IS pilots have. All they have is rank and honor and both of them are high maintenance. It's not exactly the same thing in the IS.

For this, you'd be correct, but my logic for doing such a thing would be to try and work within the existing gameplay model while giving a nod to the nature of clan society.

Further, it would reflect the Clan Hierarchy allocating resources to stars and points that prove themselves more worthy then others.

[qultar]

i still think it will me limited to simple to code stuff here are some ideas
1 no non clan gear on clan mechs or clan gear on non clan mechs

2 you must have LOS to use LRMs this will help even the odds

3 this is the big one you start out numbered IE 5 VS 8 or 10 VS 12

the 10 VS 12 will need a little extra work to even it out like the IS group gets bigger mechs

[Jakob Knight]

qultar, on 01 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

i still think it will me limited to simple to code stuff here are some ideas
1 no non clan gear on clan mechs or clan gear on non clan mechs

2 you must have LOS to use LRMs this will help even the odds

3 this is the big one you start out numbered IE 5 VS 8 or 10 VS 12

the 10 VS 12 will need a little extra work to even it out like the IS group gets bigger mechs

So you think Clan players would -want- to run IS mechs, and use IS tech when they have Clan tech to choose from? You think 10 Timberwolfs with more firepower than a Gausscat will be balancable against 12 Inner Sphere mechs of any kind?

I hope you are joking, quiaff?

[dal10]

timberwolves will be just about the easiest thing in existence to kill.They have all of the disadvantages of the cat without its rather low profile. they are just going to be massive targets.

[Jaroth Corbett]

*points & laughs* "disadvantages of the cat" you keep that dream alive son. you keep dreaming............

[Strum Wealh]

dal10, on 02 November 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

timberwolves will be just about the easiest thing in existence to kill.They have all of the disadvantages of the cat without its rather low profile. they are just going to be massive targets.

Jaroth Winson, on 02 November 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

*points & laughs* "disadvantages of the cat" you keep that dream alive son. you keep dreaming............

The Cappie does raise a valid point - one that I, myself, also raised in another thread.

Strum Wealh, on 28 October 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

I'd still take a Marauder II, Nightstar, or King Crab over the Daishi.

Also, if they stay rather close to its original appearance, imagine how big the cockpit on the Daishi (and the Mad Cat as well, for that matter) could potentially be.
And people think it's easy to decapitate a Catapult now. Just wait...

If the MWO versions of such 'Mechs as the Mad Cat, Daishi, Masakari, Black Hawk, Stormcrow, and others hold as true to the original artwork as most of the IS 'Mechs have thus far, a lot of the more-popular Clan 'Mechs are going to be "showing a lot of glass" and having it front-and-center, making for "relatively easy" decapitations (as is currently the case with the Catapult)...

[PestProblem]

I can just imagine the rivalry between a shadowcat prime and certain heromech markII as was piloted by kai allard liao. One has jumpjets and the other has more armor. Not to mention how an uller prime (kit fox) will stir things up being a dangerous scout class sniper of sorts.

[Stormwolf]

PestProblem, on 03 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

I can just imagine the rivalry between a shadowcat prime and certain heromech markII as was piloted by kai allard liao. One has jumpjets and the other has more armor. Not to mention how an uller prime (kit fox) will stir things up being a dangerous scout class sniper of sorts.

I think that the Fire Moth and Ice Ferret would be really popular.