593 replies to this topic

[ovan20]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Tell that to soldiers on the field of battle in pitched engagements who WILL need a refill on ammo at some point while in field. There is a reason companies are making things to carry things like AMMO to soldiers in country and in the field. A fighting force WILL need more ammo at SOME point.

OH, and. For me, the risk of ammo detination inside my mech is unacceptable to me. I will only use energy and let come what may.

Thats why i said, if the scenario have some kind of station to ressuply, then it would be ok, you know, it would be preety ridiculous a giant mech instantly ressuply it ammo.

Also, the risk of running out of ammo is a risk-reward system, since the bigger guns would have insane damage, but very few ammo.

Edited by ovan20, 25 April 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

as long as i dont self detonate, ammo is a non issue, being an energy boat. also i think a way to bolt or weld armor back on, cuz we all seem to be ignoring it no matter how often i say it, is a must as well.

[Haakon Valravn]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 April 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

I for one am getting absolutely sick of the World of Tanks references. I am sure that game is fun for people, but, it honestly has no bearing on my up coming time in Mech Warrior Online.

Dude, I've never even played World of Tanks. Thought about it, but my internet connection was terrible and there was no single-player. My references are to military history, specifically the Second World War.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Wasnt yellin at you. I was directed at those who blatantly say: WoT this or WoT that then try to draw a parrallel to MWO.

[ovan20]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 April 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Wasnt yellin at you. I was directed at those who blatantly say: WoT this or WoT that then try to draw a parrallel to MWO.

Iam a WoT player, and i agree with you XD.

The gameplay from WoT and MW, has a world of diference, and if works on a game, dosent mean that will work on the other game.

[wwiiogre]

Exactly where did the Dev's at PGI say a drop was going to be for three days? As far as I know PGI has referenced combat to take between 15-20 minutes for a battle. Meaning one engagement. Which negates most of the arguments for resupply and repair. Now as part of a mission I can see it, or if they follow the table top rules for BT explicitly and I mean with all the bad that goes with a rushed in field combat reload with all the dangers for catastrophic ammo explosion at 8% per ton loaded and 30 or 50 seconds per ton loaded based on how it is loaded, with all the nastiness of if the mech being loaded gets hit in the back, or the ammo being loaded gets hit then all ammo explodes doing damage to the mech being loaded and the unit loading the mech and all other ammo sitting there waiting to be loaded. Then yeah, knock your socks off. There are no MFB's in this timeline and the MW4 MFB's were blatant fps bs and have no place in MW ever. If you want to repair or fix armor then use the straight time that is needed based on the tabletop rules. And take your mech out of the battle and come back in a day or two when you are ready.

So Dev's say battle should last 15-20 minutes. If your mech dies it will be fixed to a low level state for free, in between games you will be able to reload and repair if you have the money. I really do not see a need for repair or ammo reload during a 15-20 minute game. Real time, 1:1 time not expanded, not clipped not sped up. What that means is the pilot of an ammo dependent mech needs to practice fire discipline. Which means don't spray and pray. Take armor or other things off your mech before the battle and add more ammo or else risk running out of ammo during a battle.

The dev's say games will be 12 vs 12 or upto that. Which means unlike a single player campaign where you were expected to kill 4-20 enemy units. You really should only ever be expected to kill one or two mechs in a game. Otherwise your teammates are being useless. You should also be able to help kill other mechs.

Just saying, the above is my opinion. Take it anyway you want.

chris

[Evgeny Bear]

Mobile base with ammo + repairs always bring up coward tactics with constat hit and run (more run then hit) because everyone goes back for repairs.... artificial supports unbalanced Boats for players who compensate lacking skill with massive damageoutput per second and sniping with PPC's, Gauss's and ERLRM and so on.
(as I had said it in some posts before I think)

chris is right btw

[Steel Talon]

Point is what if u run out off ammo, camping in corner waiting for battle to end is the worst option by far.
Short gamemode -- call for pick-up
Longer gamemode -- resupply

[Evgeny Bear]

steel talon, on 26 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Point is what if u run out off ammo, camping in corner waiting for battle to end is the worst option by far.
Short gamemode -- call for pick-up
Longer gamemode -- resupply

No... thats simply the deal if you take ammo based weapons. Deal With it

or balance your loadout: Energy Based vs Ammo based.
More independance or more DPS

in BT lore there are even some mechs which were created simply with that tough in mind, like the Wolfhound. So I think without reloads its just feels more like BT

Edited by Andar89, 26 April 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[WETBLOOD]

u should be able to run out of ammo and there should be a moble base to repair at and reload if u have the c-bill to do it. plus it will give the rest of us something to take out in the hunt or find it and wait for them to return and take them out

[wwiiogre]

Wetblood, MFB or mobile field base is not invented yet, and repairs unlike in MW4 where you wave a magic wand take time, a lot of time like hours and days or time. In my above post I said how it is done in table top for a field reload under combat conditions. Note a standard reload at a mech bay or drop ship takes 6 minutes to 15 minutes depending on the level of the crew and you pay them for how good they are. Still in a game that the Dev's say will last 15-20 minutes do you want to spend a few minutes walking back to a base, then spend more minutes loading plus cbills for the cost then walk back to the battle. Or take the risk of doing loading in the field with all the possibility that you blow up even if the enemy doesn't shoot you and guaranteed to blow up if the enemy shoots you or the ammo while it is loading. Since this is a sim and not a fps like MW4 there really is no place for repair in the game other than between missions. Reloads if you want to add the real problems in with the gain of getting more ammo I am all for that. Just no free reload ammo boxes. You got to stop your mech, have a crew load the ammo, it takes x amount of time while you stand still, and if you or the ammo get shot boom dead.

Hope its in game, repairs no, silly and doesn't work for a sim. But hey between missions you can repair your mech instantly and reload and jump right back into the game. Plus it appears we won't have to wait to take transports places as far as I know so instant gratification. And if they add a retreat button for mechs that are really damaged or out of ammo then those players can head back to the extraction point and then off map if that is an option, repair reload start another mission. The downside to retreating is PGI says you have to be in the mission when it ends to complete your contract. Or to get the full pay for that contract with bonuses. So put retreat in, put ammo reload in, but understand the consequences that could make you go boom or cost you money or reputation.

To me the more realism the better, it will allow the good pilots and players to really shine, while also allowing the new players to learn from it that this isn't an arcade game it is a simulation of piloting a mech 5 stories tall that is a military killing machine while working with others on a team to complete a mission. I hope you will join is in this game and enjoy how deep the backstory for this and the depth of the lore and fiction.


Chris

[KageRyuu]

Catapult ain't ammo dependent, thing has 4 medium lasers which pack a very respectable punch at a very respectable range and heat exchange. Now sure, it's slow as hell and is a target at long range for other long range heavies+, but a Catapult can hold it's own against Lights and Mediums no problem.

Regardless, the "one" thing about MWLL that I never liked was the fact that you could always return to base to repair, rearm, or upgrade.

Generally according to fluff, repairing a mech in field or not took hours (for each component) to accomplish and the infield option wasn't really available until the FedCom Civil War, while reloading ammo could be done in an emergency, it typically wasn't done due to the threat to the ground crew as well as the difficulty until again the FedCom Civil War.

Unlike previous MechWarrior games, and especially MWLL, I don't expect battles to last beyond the 15min mark, if that, so I don't see much need to talk about reloading, let alone repairing.

Though if we pay for repairs between battles, it would be nice to be able to switch mechs mid round, assuming one is playing Drop Mech mode (or whatever they called that mode where you supposedly had only 4 lives and thus 4 mechs), and that you're expensive *** Atlas is damaged to hell and back and you don't want to pay anymore repair bills when you have something cheaper back on the drop ship.

Edited by KageRyuu, 26 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

wwiiogre... i am not sure if you know how a mech warrior game works, or if your trolling or what. Repairs are silly? Ok, gonna give you an example of WHY they are NOT silly. Sim or not.

Match has: a 3 on 2 player base.
Desert Map with 10 meter and 20 meter dunes.
Support Craft: None.

Team A: 2 Scouts, 1 medium
Team B: 1 Heavy, 1 Assault.

And game on! The scouts move around the outside edge of the map, They spot the 2 enemy mechs. They call in the heavy and assault locations to their medium mech. He heads out while the scouts retreat to beyond weapons range. The Medium spots the Heavy first. Salvo fired! A AC2 burst to the RT of the Medium. THe medium calls to his Assault companion, direction and mech class. Heavy returns fire with an ER Large Laser and a pair of CER PPCs. Medium has lost functionality of his LA weapon. LA is crippled. The Assault arrives on station, being an ALL energy boat carrying 3 CER PPCs and 3 ER LL he gets lock and ALPHA strike. He holds place as he dissapates a ton of heat. The medium takes half the ALPHA to his crippled LA and loses it, the rest of the hit burrows into the LT. Mech condition: LA gone, LT ORANGE, rest in green. Medium returns fire hitting the Assault. Minimal Damage. The Heavy now fires an ALPHA strike. ERLL, 2 CER PPCs, and a Gauss Rifle. Heavy Damage to LT and CT. The Assault now safe to fire again, ALPHAs again, coring the Medium. 1 down, now its a 2 on 2.

The first Scout seeing this, rushes forward with his pulse screaming and his anger beyond measure. Both the Heavy and Assault see this scout rushing them. They both ALPHA. Scout: Obliterated. 2 down, now 1 on 1.

The second scout, being more reasonable tries with his medium lasers to try to peck from a distance, thinking if they come in range, they can hit with a CSSRM 6. The Assault hits his CER PPCs and removes an arm from the scout and half the RT's armor. He fires his CER LL's and takes out the CSSRM 6 launcher. The Heavy, in a stroke of luck for the scout, mis-reads his displayed targeting information. He fires a blast from his dual CER PPCs tearing the RT off the mech and taking the CT to condition Red. The scout makes a run for it, hitting his throttle to full, engaging MASC. The 2 Mechs take up pursuit. NOW, if there was a way to repair he could MAYBE save his life, but since no support craft are present, he is SOL. The scout knowing he is going to die, turns his raven and goes kamakaze on the enemies and is killed before he gets into range with his own remaining weapons.

I hope this clears it up.

[GrizzLee]

The comment above mentioning not being expected to kill a dozen or more opponents in a single match as in single player versions is the key. A typical ammo load is going to enough to be an effective part of a unit action. Allowing those with high damage potential weapons like AC20s and LRM20s to resupply would unbalance that player against lighter scout mechs and energy/heat hogs. Every member of a company should have a specific role and ammo dependant members are going to have to know when to move in for a kill or lend fire support and not try to fire continously throughout the battle. Remember that we didn't want this generation of mechwarrior to turn into an arms race, which could happen with ammo resupply. Let those mechs with med lasers fire (relatively) continously, but have the Catapult hold until that raven gets a narc on.

[wwiiogre]

Rajerial,

do you own a single BT book? Or Tech manual that has the rules for repairs and the repair times per repair or for fixing a single point of armor, note I did not say ton of armor because that is 16 points?

Because if you actually owned the rules to the BT game then you would realize that what I said about repairing a mech in game is silly is actually true. Now PGI has said they will stick to canon and lore and tabletop as much as possible. There are no MFB's so unless you go inside a factory or mech bay in a fortress or back inside your dropship. Then it will be impossible to repair your mech.

Strategic Operations Master Repair Table Page 183

Reattach a blown off limb takes 180 minutes or three hours (want to wait that long in a game?)
Armor per circle 5 minutes (16 x 5 = 80 minutes to repair a ton of armor, want to wait that long in a live game?)
Repair Engine Critical (360 minutes or 6 Hours)
Repair Weapon Critical (120 minutes or 2 Hours)

Should I go on or can you possibly concede the point that perhaps I actually know the lore/canon/rules about repairs for Mechs. Note unlike rearming this cannot be done on the fly in the field and there are severe penalties in time and to skill to do this in Drop Ships or at simple bays in the field.

Therefore my statement of repairs in a game that is live 1:1 time of being silly stands and I have backed it up with actual rules and facts. Now PGI may throw all of that out and put armor powerups glowing neon blue on the field and all you have to do is run your mech over the glowing powerup and you are magically fixed. Some of us expecting a simulation of Mech warfare would have a hard time with that game mechanic. Especially since PGI says they will stick to tabletop/canon/lore as much as possible. And if you have noticed they have followed that rule stringently.

It clears up an encounter. Having just played a Raven in MW4 and getting bits blown off by assaults, I can feel for the guy. But if he can get out of range and sight quickly he will live. Which I did yesterday and the day before and then continued scouting and dropping narcs and tagging mechs until I died or the game ended. Giving my support LRM boats targets. Periodically I would get cored when an assault would nail me and that is the price I paid for not doing my job well.

I can list off for you every single repair to a mech and how much time it takes if you would like another wall of text. Or you can trust me that repairs take a long time. No magic repair machine or powerup is gonna change that. Just be more careful and play well with good tactics and maneuver and you will live longer. It really is that simple. A mistake, like skylining yourself, or leaving your radar on and saying here I am while approaching unknown enemies in unknown territory. That gets you killed, quickly and efficiently when the enemy masses firepower on you and your mech goes down with a whimper.

So I am all for reloads, but repairs are just silly in a simulation game.

Hope that clears it up for you. I can give you many more reference pages to books for the table top game if you need them or are interested. I don't mind I have all the books, in hardback and most of them in pdf as well.

Chris

[Ravn]

Rejarial, the game you want already exists: MWLL. That is a fantastic game, but I don't want another one exactly like it. We need a sim.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Rejarial Galatan, on 26 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

CER PPCs.
CSSRM 6. CER LLi

These weapons, and the mechs that bear them won't exist for over a year.

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 28 April 2012 - 01:51 AM.

[Hawks]

CCC_Dober, on 05 April 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

You forgot to consider certain weapons (and Mechs) that go through ammo like a fat kid goes through candy bars. Please reconsider.
Hint: ArrowIV, UAC, RAC etc.

Irrelevant.

Yes, those weapon systems have disadvantages (higher rate of ammo expenditure).

They also have commensurate advantages (much greater firepower).

The tension between those advantages and disadvantages creates what gamers and game developers refer to as 'balance'.

[Cifu]

My personal viewpoint:

-Unlimited ammo -> Definetly NO!

-Resupply -> in longer battles needed.


Anyone, who think it over see how the AC's have their problems. Lets see two almost-same weapon comparison:

PPC:

10 damage
10 heat
7 tons
6/12/18 range
minimum range: 3

AC/10:

10 damage
3 heat
12 tons
10/15/20 range
minimum range: -

So, make them comparable:

PPC -> for 3 generated heat, we need 7 tons of Heat sink, thats 14 tons.
AC/10 -> in 14 tons, we have 2 tons of ammunition.

In the end, we have 14 tons weight both. The AC/10 had a little better range, no minimum range. But only can fire 20 times, and have the risk of ammunition explosion.

But this numbers only live in the TableTop (TT) Battletech. In the previous Mechwarrior games i prefer the energy weapons above all - the nightmare of "ammunition depleted" is happens some times, and i don't really like it. The ballistic weapons simply won't worth the risk. The LRM's do, but thats an another story...

[Hawks]

Bear in mind that '20 shots' in the TT game equates to something like 3.5 minutes of continuous firing.