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House Davion vs House Liao


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#61 Balls of Steele

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:59 AM

View PostSigmund Sandoval, on 02 May 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Our history has been one of bitter rivalry since before there was a Capellan Confederation which was founded by a genius who just so happened to be both a convicted terrorist and a madman. The Capellan Hegemony, Chesterton Trade League, Tikanov Grand Union and St. Ives Mercentile Association were the seeds of a Confederation that proved to be a thorn in the side of my nascent Federation. If we are warmongers, its because we have the most aggressive, politically duplicitous and ruthless neighbors in the inner sphere and I mean that with ALL due respect. After all a nation can certainly be defined by the quality of its enemies.


I would say quite a bit of your post is accurate and other parts inaccurate, but this part is what interests me most.

Aggressive? I hardly think so, and this from a Davion too which is just hypocritical in the extreme. The Confederation was formed out of necessity from small individual nation states due to repeated attempts to subjugate their planets by - you guessed it - House Davion. The bloated AFFS continually sparked aggression in Capellan worlds and these worlds acted together to defend their homes. You create your own enemies.

Your so called "freedom" comes at the cost of others and Capellans know this better than anyone. For longer than anyone can remember, the Confederation has acted purely in its own defence to protect the way of life of its people. The Federated Suns thinks it has all the answers which is why it seeks purely to conquer and control and that which it cannot control, it kills.

If any of the houses is to be accused of the pursuit of power then Davion is it. I don't think the CapCon is perfect, in fact it has glaring flaws, but it does not oppress its people in the way everyone seems to think. Don't pretend House Davion is some kind of righteous, honourable, liberating warrior, it is a murdering coward that wants everything under its flag and will annihilate anyone that dares to get in the way. House Liao dares and it pays a heavy price for its sacrifice.

#62 Youngblood

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:03 AM

Two-part post because it's too long!

View PostSigmund Sandoval, on 02 May 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

The current incarnation of the Federated Suns government is a far cry from the idealistic and somewhat democratized republic that Lucien envisioned. Through time and quite a bit of conflict, House Davion discovered that at a certain level, an interplanetary government requires a firm and unquestioned hand to lead it. During times of relative peace, more egalitarian attitudes and ideals may be practiced, but in a galaxy that has known only war for so many hundreds of years, it only leads to divisiveness, indecisiveness and internal turmoil. Thus the Federated Suns government has become more centralized around the First Prince as it has evolved during the Succession Wars.


Oh, good! At least you admit to having a leader who's a dictator at best and a tyrant warlord stringing along an armed cult of personality on other days.

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The Federated Suns at a galactic level is a Neo-Feudal constitutional monarchy ruled by the First Prince, his Dukes and the Ministries that govern the bureaucracy. All of these positions are hereditary or appointments, none are elected.


Sad. The Davionistas need the excuse of "my father did it" to stay on a chair. That or "my father's friend did it". So who you are and who you know is more important for landing a job than any sort of dedication to a higher cause, huh? Pitiful.

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Although there are systems in place that allow the common citizenry to request the removal of an unsatisfactory lord (which has occurred on several occasions), these decisions are still made by the feudal masters that lie higher up the chain. Although the Federated Suns has known its tyrants, for the most part the monarchy understands that they have a responsibility to the populace in order to avoid greater challenges to their domestic peace. In other words it's in their best interest to keep the general populace safe and happy.


In other words, to keep them uneducated and ignorant enough to not figure out that you're too busy waging egomaniac wars to take care of them.

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What we fail to see in this discussion is that just about every type of governmental "philosophy" is represented in the Federated Suns. One of the few things that hasn't changed from the original Crucis Pact is the general autonomy given to the governance of the individual planets within the Federation. You can find planets ranging politically from Soviet Communism, to French Socialism to the far more popular British parliamentary system. All are represented on a planetary level. So the discussion of these political systems is moot in the fact that both the Capellan Confederation and the Federated Suns are run by monarchies, which by their very nature despotic at least at a galactic level.


What I find important to mention here is that this is also true for the Capellan Confederation, except on a cultural level. Dukes, Duchess, and Mandrinns are all free to tout whatever sort of neo-civilization they like, as long as they manage to make the best use of their world's resources for the Confederation.

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Although the popular belief is that the Capellan Confederation is a police state, that is a half truth. Most citizens of the confederation enjoy most of the same basic freedoms as a citizen from the Federated Suns as they live their day to day lives. The main difference is one of philosophy and public education.


No, the main difference is one of social mores. The Korvin Doctrine, Sarna Mandate, and Lorix Order just make the Confederation's social mores look prettier by describing them with flowery words on paper (digital file, whatever).

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The Liao state promotes two main doctrines that define their socio-political structure. First is the Korvin Doctrine, which stresses the subordination of the individual to the a Greater Humanity, or in essence to the state. This concept is anathema to the ideals of individualism, personal freedom, expression and development that are extolled in the Federated Suns.


Where is your connection between the two here? The Korvin Doctrine doesn't care what the frag you do as long as it's appreciated. Looking further into your paragraph....

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The second is the Sarna Mandate which dictates that the military, scientific and political elite of a given society are the only ones capable of governing, which is used to justify the Capellan social caste system. The concept of being able to climb social strata through education and service is central to the beliefs of the average Federated Suns citizen, beliefs that cannot function within the Liao state


Sir, you have completely and utterly missed the entire point of the Sarna Mandate. This is the very document that speaks to social mobility in the Confederation being within everyone's reach! The castes are there so that you know you've been promoted when you do something good. The door is completely open for becoming part of the elite in the Confederation, you just have to show that you can handle the job for others to see. You don't have to be born with a silver spoon in your mouth like in the Suns. It's all about the meritocracy in the Capellan Zone, baby! Work hard, study hard, and train hard, kids!

Oh, and by the way. Education? In the Suns? AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. I LIKED THAT ONE, TELL IT TO ME AGAIN. For the masses in the Suns, you're lucky to do anything more than farm weeds unless you have the connections and the resources. If an agent or an inquirer finds a Citizen going above and beyond in the Confederation, that Citizen gets remembered and directly reported to those who can give him or herself a better position in society.

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(as a side note there have been several situations where commoners have risen to the status of a nobleman or woman. This is of course uncommon, but has happened).


Of course, those stories about your Davionista dirt farmers.

Edited by Youngblood, 05 May 2012 - 03:49 AM.


#63 Sleeping Bear

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:16 AM

In defense of my beloved Federation. House Davion has acted honorably since it's inception. It's educated ciizenry would have it no other way. Every single offensive act conducted by the Federation was in response to overt and mainly covert actions by other houses. The feudal democracy of the Davies in conjuction with the high level of education throughout the Federation ensures that we can never be the "bully" that others slander us as. If being a bully means that we will defend ouselves from outside aggression and the systematic oppression we witness in other houses, then YES we are bullies.
As for the moniker of "Military Powerhouse" of the inner sphere; a wise statesman of old Earth once said, "Walk quietly and carry a big stick", so as you can very well imagine, our stick just happens to be big because we won't let others push us or our allies around.

#64 Youngblood

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:18 AM

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Philosophical Examiners, Courts of Philosophical Inquiry and The Ranks of the Dedicated make sure that these ideas are ingrained into every citizen in the Confederation. Those who fail to “tow the party line” are dealt with, at least amongst the citizenry that the state deems to be a threat. These systems are oppressive by our standards but make for a citizenry and a warrior caste that is capable of incredible levels of courage and sacrifice. Never underestimate a Liao, doing so is slitting your own throat.

The correct spelling is "toe the party line". Mmm, that Davionista education. Anyways! Social mores are what tend to enforce conformity here. People are there to mind your business because not only is it the fashionable thing to do, it's the more reassuring thing for Citizens. I'd be more afraid if there weren't people around to watch out for my neighbors being bad team players!

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Our history has been one of bitter rivalry since before there was a Capellan Confederation which was founded by a genius who just so happened to be both a convicted terrorist and a madman.

That's what ComStar would have you believe. They're nuts about anything that looks like opposition to worldwide and galaxy-wide unity. See Catalyst's Handbook: House Liao for a more clear explanation.

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The Capellan Hegemony, Chesterton Trade League, Tikanov Grand Union and St. Ives Mercentile Association were the seeds of a Confederation that proved to be a thorn in the side of my nascent Federation. If we are warmongers, its because we have the most aggressive, politically duplicitous and ruthless neighbors in the inner sphere and I mean that with ALL due respect. After all a nation can certainly be defined by the quality of its enemies.

I think you just tried to mix both of us Asian states together, guy. Politically duplicitous and ruthless we Capellans are, but we just want our worlds back, man. It's the Dracs who want to exterminate your (inferior) culture.

#65 Atlai

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:31 AM

View PostEgomane, on 29 April 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

Why I dispise the Federated Suns: The are the military powerhouse of the inner sphere. Diplomacy is done only to further strengthen the own goals.Instead of using its strength to negotiate peace with others it is used to invade them. It is the most aggressive house in the inner sphere.
Dude thanks i was just thinking about being a freelance but now i totally want to join Davion! sorry your argument had a opposite effect : )

#66 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:36 AM

View PostMason West, on 04 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Dude thanks i was just thinking about being a freelance but now i totally want to join Davion! sorry your argument had a opposite effect : )


Wont make a difference, with the millions of players joining House Davion you will feel like a free lancer anyway. :)

#67 ArchApollyon

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:23 AM

All I see is posts on why Liao's or Davion's government is better but what about other aspects like how Liao has great sensor tech or Davion has the most advanced research facility in the Inner Sphere (<-correct me if i'm wrong). I love Davion but they have done some bad stuff. wasn't the game designed so every one would be constantly at war. Also i don't see how "knowing" your nation has both bad and good is really relevant since its obvious that it's the case for all the nations. Sure, some Davions probably try to ignore the bad but that would make them ignorant. I just think that Davion tries to be good more than the other nations. That being said i'm still all for Davion.

#68 Adridos

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:52 AM

View PostArchApollyon, on 04 May 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

All I see is posts on why Liao's or Davion's government is better but what about other aspects like how Liao has great sensor tech or Davion has the most advanced research facility in the Inner Sphere (<-correct me if i'm wrong).


Well, we made the Raven and Catapult exists, because our ancestors saw its potential when Star League disagreed with his maker. We have superior aircraft as well and our millitary is the most elite in the IS (not elite, just the best training from all the conventional soldiers). Lastly, we will make Stealth armor in the future. :)

Edited by Adridos, 04 May 2012 - 09:52 AM.


#69 Egomane

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:26 AM

View PostMason West, on 04 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Dude thanks i was just thinking about being a freelance but now i totally want to join Davion! sorry your argument had a opposite effect : )

Who sayd, we need someone like you? If you want to swim with the masses and be a faceless nobody among the armies of the Federated Suns, who am I to argue against it? That is totally your choice, dude!

While you will never be heard of again, we will make names for ourself, by fighting and winning against seemingly superior forces of your house.

View PostArchApollyon, on 04 May 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

All I see is posts on why Liao's or Davion's government is better but what about other aspects like how Liao has great sensor tech or Davion has the most advanced research facility in the Inner Sphere (<-correct me if i'm wrong). I love Davion but they have done some bad stuff. wasn't the game designed so every one would be constantly at war. Also i don't see how "knowing" your nation has both bad and good is really relevant since its obvious that it's the case for all the nations. Sure, some Davions probably try to ignore the bad but that would make them ignorant. I just think that Davion tries to be good more than the other nations. That being said i'm still all for Davion.

Davion has the most well known research institute. I wouldn't say it is the best. They can just reinvent things from memory cores (they will get better later, I admit that, but we are not there yet). Our scientists did create shiny new things even before the Helm memory core has been distributed in the inner sphere.

The rest of your post shows how ignorant you Davies really are. Even when you know that not all is good on your side of the boarder, you just pretend that the bad things don't exist and instead begin looking for them in your neighbours, whose good sides are also mostly ignored by you. At least you are one of the few members of your house that notices those flaws. Now you just need to act on it. :)

#70 Ross486

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:32 AM

I probably need to make one of these threads between House Kurita and House Davion.

#71 Youngblood

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:46 AM

View PostRoss486, on 04 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

I probably need to make one of these threads between House Kurita and House Davion.


That thread would probably get locked so quick from racist remarks! :P

View PostArchApollyon, on 04 May 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

All I see is posts on why Liao's or Davion's government is better but what about other aspects like how Liao has great sensor tech or Davion has the most advanced research facility in the Inner Sphere (<-correct me if i'm wrong). I love Davion but they have done some bad stuff. wasn't the game designed so every one would be constantly at war. Also i don't see how "knowing" your nation has both bad and good is really relevant since its obvious that it's the case for all the nations. Sure, some Davions probably try to ignore the bad but that would make them ignorant. I just think that Davion tries to be good more than the other nations. That being said i'm still all for Davion.


Well, some players like to join factions because they feel better about fighting for them, with the knowledge of what they fight for. I think you might be surprised to find out that there are Periphery players out there that have to make do with heaps of piled-up junk for BattleMechs and DropShips, but love their tiny little side-factions even more than you would yours!

#72 Sassori

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:24 AM

Long story short:

No single faction is the best. Every single faction is 'Cool'. They all have good and bad parts. The only thing that matters is wether you as an individual, have fun associating your character with that faction.

I like Katrina and Melissa, I hated Hanse. Well, I can honestly say I hated Stackpole's Hanse. I also hated Stackpole's whole mystic 'I can make it so nobody can shoot me' thing that Yorinaga and Morgan did too. Was stupid.

To be honest I like Steiner, Kurita, and Liao /because/ they are different from my real world. It's easy to slip into the fantasy of them. Marik with all it's corporations and whatnot, and Davion with it's 'automatically the good guy' thing in some books just annoys the hell out of me.

It's a pity about Melissa, she would have been /so/ much better without association to Hanse...

#73 Youngblood

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:29 AM

View PostChristopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Long story short:

No single faction is the best. Every single faction is 'Cool'. They all have good and bad parts. The only thing that matters is wether you as an individual, have fun associating your character with that faction.

I like Katrina and Melissa, I hated Hanse. Well, I can honestly say I hated Stackpole's Hanse. I also hated Stackpole's whole mystic 'I can make it so nobody can shoot me' thing that Yorinaga and Morgan did too. Was stupid.

To be honest I like Steiner, Kurita, and Liao /because/ they are different from my real world. It's easy to slip into the fantasy of them. Marik with all it's corporations and whatnot, and Davion with it's 'automatically the good guy' thing in some books just annoys the hell out of me.

It's a pity about Melissa, she would have been /so/ much better without association to Hanse...


No point in having a discussion if we all wished we could just agree to disagree and get along that way. Also, slightly off-topic.

#74 Jack Gallows

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:05 AM

View PostEgomane, on 04 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

notices those flaws. Now you just need to act on it. :P


And yet, Cappies can't follow their own advice?

What individual would willingly let someone who's knowingly insane rule them. And you continue to let it happen, turning a blind eye to it.

#75 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostJack Gallows, on 05 May 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

What individual would willingly let someone who's knowingly insane rule them. And you continue to let it happen, turning a blind eye to it.


Well, until MWO starts we can't do anything about the insane ruler sitting on New Avalon. So you have to deal with Hanse yourself.

#76 Youngblood

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:30 AM

View PostJack Gallows, on 05 May 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:


And yet, Cappies can't follow their own advice?

What individual would willingly let someone who's knowingly insane rule them. And you continue to let it happen, turning a blind eye to it.

That's easy. The answer is any individual that realizes that what this "insane" leader can do is way better for them than anything that a New Avalon leader would provide. Rulers are rulers, no matter how often they twirl their mustaches. Given how closely a dynastic ruler is tied to the State...if there was a Chancellor who was so incompetent that he or she couldn't handle the job, the Confederation would cease to exist before the end of that Chancellor's reign. Yet somehow, the Confederation manages to survive. Can you explain why?

You don't deserve to know if you can't.

Edited by Youngblood, 06 May 2012 - 06:31 AM.


#77 Howling Mad Murdock

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:10 AM

I have to say I am always drawn to the side of the Underdog..... fighting for survival.. a bit like the Dodgeball movie really... :D

#78 Alexander Fury

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:28 AM

In a straight up fight its hard to tell.

The CC boyz have some really hardcore elite units on they`re side, units that even during the 4th SW came out on top, specifically the warrior houses, the Red Lancers and the Death Commando's. Now I know most if not all got f*ed up during the war, but thier skill level as Elite is undisputable.

On the other hand the FS is like the US in a sense. Great at throwing a smaller nation up against the wall and *****-slapping them a good one. But once on scene they have a hard time keeping the peace in their newly conquered lands. (Ex. Chaos March)

The biggest mistake Davion ever did was not following through and destroying the CC when they had them by the balls at the end of the 4th SW. IMO

#79 Adridos

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:27 AM

View PostAlexander Fury, on 10 May 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Now I know most if not all got f*ed up during the war, but thier skill level as Elite is undisputable.

The biggest mistake Davion ever did was not following through and destroying the CC when they had them by the balls at the end of the 4th SW. IMO

We got .... because of Stackpole's bias. He literraly wirtten, that the elite of IS can be easily beaten with farmers! Why not write that some beggar from FC got an Urbanmech and stomped the ... out of Com Star and Clans altogether, then? Makes the same ammount of sense. ;)

And Davions had to withdrawl, because Com Star stopped their HPG support. :D

#80 AH Warhawk

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:49 AM

I have the utmost respect for death commando's and cappellon ferocity; however, the davions would treat the with better respect if the cappellons developed a stronger economy. If you could just get out of the command based economic system and substitute it for a Austian Theory based economoic system you could destroy the Free Worlds Leage and the Federated Suns no problem. With your tenacity stil kept in tact (of course). Instead Liao is forced to be on the defence; becasue of the lack of resorces and logistical support that they have. Till then I suggest building energy weapon based mechs.





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