134 replies to this topic

[Wales Grey]

Death Mallet, on 31 January 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Matchmaker

Background: According to the fluff, Clan never drops with more than half the Inner Sphere resources. So just make it that way in the game.

Game Mechanic: Matchmaker will match 8 IS mechs against 4 Clan mechs for any game involving Clan tech.

Targeting

Background: Clan mechs tend to fight 1-1.

Game Mechanic: Any mech targeted via 'R' by a Clan mech cannot be targeted by any other Clan mech until the target has been broken

Make all clantech cost MC to purchase and MC to repair. Problem Solved.

[Bagheera]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ah, well, technically we get to have both, after all, haven't they already stated that all our conflicts are going to be on the peripherals of the Invasion, and not "affect" the canon Invasion, Planets and Units in any way?

Do you have a reference for that? That's the most definitive I've seen stated regarding the ability of players to affect the timeline. Almost a retraction from their statements during CB, and incredibly disappointing. Foregone conclusions are boring; what's the point of CW at all if the outcome is already decided?

Not that I don't believe you, many people keep up with this far better than I do, but I would like to read the source.

[zraven7]

Easy fix. Maybe not the most balanced fix, but the initial conflicts weren't balanced either.

In any case...

Make clan mechs and clan tech stupid expensive. 20-100 million for a Clan mech. x10 costs for Clan-tech weapons compared to closest IS weapon.

If Inner Sphere Mechs want Clan Tech, it's a really pricey upgrade. 10 million for lights, 20 million for mediums, and so on. IS hardpoints remain fixed, as they are not Omni mechs.

Re-institute rearm and repair costs. Clan mechs cost much more to repair and rearm.

Simply put, make it to where, unless you are playing exceptional matches, profit from playing Clan Mechs is very low. Unless you were in top form, you should be either breaking even or barely profiting after your R and R.

Then, clan mechs will have a simple balance. People won't bring them out all the time, and only if they know they will do decent, as a quick destruction could cost them money for the match. IS mechs repair and rearm costs would be adjusted according to how much Clan-tech they have on the Mech, though a flat increase would be applied to all repairs after you got the "enable clan tech equips" upgrade.

This game needs a money sink besides paintjobs.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Apnu, on 31 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Pretty much the whole community who isn't on the winning faction's side. Because the Devs would be forced to reset the universe. Then even the winning faction will be pissed off because all of their hard work and excellent strategy will have been for nothing. Its loose-loose.

The map will never be "won".

It's not like there will be much of a meaning to "control" the map. This won't be some form of resource game mode where certain mech factories are captured and they can no longer be built or certain weapon factories are taken and you can't buy those weapons.

WHO CARES if the DCMS swoop in and take half of Lyran space. It'll be taken back in short order.

[Sadistic Savior]

PANZERBUNNY, on 31 January 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

The game quickly becomes "not fun" when super Clan Mechs that people could say, only pay for, stomp their faces each and every single match.

That would be completely true if it was a 1 to 1 ratio.

As I have said about a dozen times now, I am not proposing a 1 to 1 ratio. That is why it will not be unfair. That is why it will still be fun.

Lukoi, on 31 January 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

It's pretty clear that MWO doesn't feel tied to TT rules

I have been pleasantly surprised at how closely they have followed TT actually. I certainly was not expecting them to considering they are using a real-time twitch model. But IMO they have made it work well.

[CDLord HHGD]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Make all clantech cost MC to purchase and MC to repair. Problem Solved.

Worst. Suggestion. Ever.

[Wales Grey]

cdlord, on 31 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Worst. Suggestion. Ever.

I agree, Comic Sans MS is a horrible font.

That aside, this is literally the same friggin discussion that these forums have been ruminating on since literally before day one. Please stop making these threads. If you really want to talk about this subject, use the FORUMS SEARCH feature to find a thread and post in it. There are seriously like six or seven instances of this endless whining/hand-wringing/pearl-clutching non-discussion going on already.

Mods, please move all clantech discussion threads to Kaetetôã.

[CDLord HHGD]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I agree, Comic Sans MS is a horrible font.

LOLz

[PANZERBUNNY]

At least Clans will change the way the game is played. People who enjoy running at the enemy to brawl really fast will enjoy watching the rest of their team play from the death screen.

Either it slows the game down and makes it slower as people are more careful or they speed it up and Clans are able to close distance fast, bringing a stupid amount of firepower on their enemies fairly quickly.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 31 January 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

...find a way to encourage the clans to fight themselves might help. Not inaccurate in the least, though I don't recall when exactly this started happening in the lore.

Won't perfectly balance everything, but it should keep pressure off the IS in the least....except for anything around Terra.

[Apnu]

PANZERBUNNY, on 31 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

The map will never be "won".

It's not like there will be much of a meaning to "control" the map. This won't be some form of resource game mode where certain mech factories are captured and they can no longer be built or certain weapon factories are taken and you can't buy those weapons.

WHO CARES if the DCMS swoop in and take half of Lyran space. It'll be taken back in short order.

I've been in several live IS leagues and I've seen factions swamp each other and the swamped faction only gets relief when the game masters step in and fix things. If the Lyrans loose half their planets to the DCMS, they'll never recover. The DCMS will then turn that production around and press their advantage all the way to Tharkad. And they will hold it there, putting Tharkad under siege until PGI resets the universe. Plus the Lyran players would just quit and move on because defending Tharkad all day with no way of moving forward is boring.

That has always happened in this sort of game. In MegaMek I watched this pattern several times. Usually it was the Lyrans holding back the DCMS and spanking the Fed Suns. This was because as the timeline went on the Lyrans had a natural heavy and assault mech advantage and the Fed Suns, traditionally, field light and medium mechs and the players just couldn't stand up to that many Atlases, Zeuses and so on. I played for Davion in MegaMek, after the 3rd reset, I quit following it.

So to answer your question: everybody cares. When the game masters step in, its annoying for everybody. Nobody wants that, there should be some sort of balance to the galaxy including with the Clans.

Check this 3025 map: http://iscs.teamspam...25.20020918.jpg And then look at the map after the 4th Succession war: http://iscs.teamspam...30.20020918.jpg What you see is a major victory for the Fed Suns over Liao and a good land grab by their allies the Lyrans. Besides the clan invasion, this is the most successful the factions had at running the IS table. This shows that things are balance, that's important for the game. Otherwise nobody will play for Houses with a disadvantage, which will further unbalance things.

If PGI feels compelled to step in and reset things if they give the community full control of the universe then the game isn't balanced and it isn't fun. PGI is, smartly, trying to figure out ways to keep the game balanced and fun for all of us. I hope they get something working.

[Apnu]

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 31 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

...find a way to encourage the clans to fight themselves might help. Not inaccurate in the least, though I don't recall when exactly this started happening in the lore.

Won't perfectly balance everything, but it should keep pressure off the IS in the least....except for anything around Terra.

They were always fighting from the get go. The clan invasion was more of a race really than a team effort. Each participating clan had a reason for the invasion. It came down to Warden and Crusader clans. the Crusaders each, individually, wanted to take Terra for their clan, not the whole. So they fought amongst themselves during the invasion, but they would quit wacking each other to punch out the freebirth scum they thought was polluting space.

My point is, you're right. The clans have natural reasons to compete against one another.

[Khanahar]

Hey Bishop! Love your art. People, check it out sometime.

Also, he’s right. Clan tech can never be “balanced” against IS, and shouldn’t be. Tech should/must be separated. My sig has a link to how I think this could be elegantly done without P2W, but there are other options.

Now for a few common misconceptions:
1) Clan weapons do not run hotter than IS weapons. This myth comes from MW4’s attempt to “balance” Clantech.
2) “Balancing” via repair costs is P2W. It’s obvious, we all know it, and as a gold who cares about this game I’m strongly against it. You should pay for convenience, never for superior ability to win.
3) Making MC only Clan 'mechs is an even worse idea. It's P2W in a serious way. At least let players grind up to a Mad Cat if they want.
4) Full mixed ‘tech won’t just obsolete IS weapons. It will obsolete all IS ‘mechs. All “upgrades” cost less for the Clan, allowing large ‘mechs to run XL, endo, ferro, and DHS easily.
5) Even if you allowed all of those onto IS chassis, Omnitech makes them remain worthless, particularly if it comes in the TT form, but even if it comes in a MWO form with “omni” slots as seen in that bug. Omnimechs are going to be great for boating.

The entire trick for PGI is to make Clan play available to everybody, but not mixing tech.

[Kreisel]

Didn't the IS get some tech the clans didn't? and more over... didn't the Clans refuse to equip certain tech?
Current ECM is CRAZY powerful and frankly speaking a Clansman would not consider it's use ok with Zellbrigen.

Considering the widely held opinion is that ECM wins games...and team tactics (which the clans are supposed to shun) are king. If the Clans don't get team support equipment... say ECM and TAG.... well... they may be faster, have bigger guns but they are still gonna get chewed up

and that kinda fits lore too... Clans were amazing duelist... but when it came to open warfare, they got hit by lots of surprises.

Yeah, the Tech may be waaay better, but if they lack certain tech/modules, ect it could really hurt them. Having less members on a team is reallllly tough, being down even 1 at the start normally spells a loss, being down 3 would make the Clans be fighting an uphill battle even with more advanced tech.

They are pressing to have 12v12 matchs, 12v10 clan I think will be more realistic than 8v5

Edited by Kreisel, 31 January 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Zolthar]

It's like if you were in 1910ish and trying to find a way to prevent cars from replacing horses...

[Mr G]

Clan mechs are going to be Omni mechs right? They won't need to have variants. So just make it so that clan mech chassis don't get mech efficencies. No speed tweak, cool run, ect. So clanners will rely on better weapons, tech and greater build freedom. While IS pilots rely more on their familiarity with there own patchworked coustomized and modded mechs.

[zraven7]

Zolthar, on 31 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

It's like if you were in 1910ish and trying to find a way to prevent cars from replacing horses...

I wanna horse with a PPC.

[Novakaine]

There are no Clans it is an old wives tale from drunken space merchants.
You have been warned.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Mr G, on 31 January 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Clan mechs are going to be Omni mechs right? They won't need to have variants. So just make it so that clan mech chassis don't get mech efficencies. No speed tweak, cool run, ect. So clanners will rely on better weapons, tech and greater build freedom. While IS pilots rely more on their familiarity with there own patchworked coustomized and modded mechs.

Well, they are omni mechs, but they are most certainly split up into "generic builds" just like different IS variants.

Omni is more of a Role Playing feature to explain why Clan mechs are just THAT much better. Easy to maintain in the field at the drop of a hat due to how weapons are placed on the mech.

Kreisel, on 31 January 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Didn't the IS get some tech the clans didn't? and more over... didn't the Clans refuse to equip certain tech?
Current ECM is CRAZY powerful and frankly speaking a Clansman would not consider it's use ok with Zellbrigen.

Considering the widely held opinion is that ECM wins games...and team tactics (which the clans are supposed to shun) are king. If the Clans don't get team support equipment... say ECM and TAG.... well... they may be faster, have bigger guns but they are still gonna get chewed up

and that kinda fits lore too... Clans were amazing duelist... but when it came to open warfare, they got hit by lots of surprises.

Yeah, the Tech may be waaay better, but if they lack certain tech/modules, ect it could really hurt them. Having less members on a team is reallllly tough, being down even 1 at the start normally spells a loss, being down 3 would make the Clans be fighting an uphill battle even with more advanced tech.

They are pressing to have 12v12 matchs, 12v10 clan I think will be more realistic than 8v5

The only reason they were KIND of at a disadvantage was due to the dishonour and deception of IS pilots.(Rightfully so.)

Just like a kind trusting person, it's not that you were untrustworthy or dishonest, it was that I was too trusting and that was taken advantage of.

Even though they knew IS pilots were lesser, dishonourable thugs, they have their own honour that they will attempt to preserve at all costs.

[Khanahar]

Kreisel, on 31 January 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Didn't the IS get some tech the clans didn't? and more over... didn't the Clans refuse to equip certain tech?
Current ECM is CRAZY powerful and frankly speaking a Clansman would not consider it's use ok with Zellbrigen.

Considering the widely held opinion is that ECM wins games...and team tactics (which the clans are supposed to shun) are king. If the Clans don't get team support equipment... say ECM and TAG.... well... they may be faster, have bigger guns but they are still gonna get chewed up

and that kinda fits lore too... Clans were amazing duelist... but when it came to open warfare, they got hit by lots of surprises.

Yeah, the Tech may be waaay better, but if they lack certain tech/modules, ect it could really hurt them. Having less members on a team is reallllly tough, being down even 1 at the start normally spells a loss, being down 3 would make the Clans be fighting an uphill battle even with more advanced tech.

Nope, Clans used ECM. http://www.sarna.net...llbringer_(Loki)#Armament

That said, ECM in its TT form was very Zell; almost pro-Zell. It neutralized anything specialized. Somewhat different story here.