276 replies to this topic

[Kalunta]

I applaud CoffiNail with his knowledgeable contributions.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Captain Wolfus Maximus, on 09 November 2011 - 11:24 AM, said:

So basically Cavadus is saying no ER lasers and no Mad Cat. There has always been the Mad Cat and ER lasers.

stormwolf, on 09 November 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

Except in MW1 Anyway, the year 3049 is relevant because of the invasion, the game would have been set in 3015 or 3025 if they just wanted I.S. mechs. So this entire thread is not gonna have any impact whatsoever.

I'm slightly confused. Where have I ever said that MWO can't include the clans in any capacity?

You two should try reading my OP before replying to it. I said the game can't include canon clan technology. I never said the game couldn't have clans.

I also replied directly to this issue a few pages ago:

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

I never once said we can't have the clans or omnimechs at all. They need to use the same tech base as the IS if they're allowed into the game.

I've said this a few times but for the clan invasion give the clans IS Level 2 tech, let the IS be a little disadvantaged for a 30-day in-game invasion event, and then merge it all after the event.

That'll simulate the clan invasion, allow the clans to be initially technologically superior, and still maintain complete balance after the event is over and the IS gets bumped up to Level 2 tech.

[Adridos]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'm slightly confused. Where have I ever said that MWO can't include the clans in any capacity?

You two should try reading my OP before replying to it. I said the game can't include canon clan technology. I never said the game couldn't have clans.

I also replied directly to this issue a few pages ago:

"Then you know that clan tech must be excluded from the game entirely and that there can't be any technical differences between omnimechs and battlemechs. " - The one who says he never asked for removal of Clans.

Edited by Adridos, 09 November 2011 - 12:07 PM.

[AuGuR]

Over half the clanner's success was due to the IS Houses being clueless of their existence (Suprise attack ftw?). Considering the pace of their invasion, it's not surprising they advanced as far as they did before the IS finally reacted.

Even after they (IS) figured out what was going on, it still took a lot of time to get the Houses working together to offset the clanner's advance, so even more ground was covered.

But to say their success was all due to superior technology is incorrect.

[Stormwolf]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'm slightly confused. Where have I ever said that MWO can't include the clans in any capacity?

You two should try reading my OP before replying to it. I said the game can't include canon clan technology. I never said the game couldn't have clans.

I also replied directly to this issue a few pages ago:

Your argument is a bit meh.

Having the Clans without their iconic mechs is like having Lord of the Rings without the rings, there is no point to it.

Edited by stormwolf, 09 November 2011 - 12:13 PM.

[katadder]

well clan/IS tech has been balanced before in a PC game even in mechwarrior 4 mercs in a league we had IS players take on clanners at 8v8 and win. its all about how they balance stuff in game. plus a newbie clan player will probably always lose to a hotshot IS player.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Adridos, on 09 November 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

"Then you know that clan tech must be excluded from the game entirely and that there can't be any technical differences between omnimechs and battlemechs. " - The one who says he never asked for removal of Clans.

To help you out.

There's a lot more to the clans than just the technology. I understand now that you disagree with that assessment.

Are you familiar with the clans' lore? Their origin? Their current society? Et cetera?

I find it hard to believe that you are.

stormwolf, on 09 November 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

Your argument is a bit meh. Having the Clans without their iconic mechs is like Lord of Rings without the rings, there is no point to it.

I never said that the clans couldn't have their mechs, just that their omnimechs would need to be converted into battlemechs. Please read my OP before criticizing it.

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

Omnimechs

[...]

The ultimate solution is to go ahead and include omnimechs but convert them to battlemechs for the sake of gameplay. That way we can still enjoy the mechs themselves but they won't destroy any hope for the rest of the battlemechs.

Edited by Cavadus, 09 November 2011 - 12:15 PM.

[katadder]

oh and on the 100ton point - 100tons is slow, in my 60ton mech i can circle you avoiding the worst of your fire whilst hitting you in the same place again and again. yes you might have lots of armour everywhere but it dont help if you only get hit in the CT everytime (this is experience from other mechwarrior games, nobody any good plays assaults as they die quickly, I have even killed them piloting a raven)

[Adridos]

They are remnants of the former Star League, which army was "sent away" by the houses.

They are completly warrior society with lot of honor and piloting a mech is the highest achievement.

Specify etc.

Tech means they would fight in IS mechs and thats stupid.

Edited by Adridos, 09 November 2011 - 12:21 PM.

[Knt Maverick]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

It seems like a lot of the purists around here have very little knowledge about how game balance works. Sometimes I wonder if they've ever played a video game outside of the franchise. Most of the time I conclude that they haven't.

MWO is a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Bunches of players being thrown through a match making process and then being outputted into a match.

It's also faction on faction which means it's very important that there is solid faction balance. There is something we've talked about a lot which is a guaranteed way to destroy faction balance:

Clan Tech

The simple fact of the matter is that this game can't include traditional clan technology. Ever.

Why, you ask? Because one faction, or set of factions in this case, can't be given such a devastating advantage over their opponents. In traditional MMOs the developers generally steer away from "alpha" classes. "Alpha" classes are a class which was specifically chosen and designed to be superior to everything else. This is what the clans are to BattleTech. They are the "alpha" class.

The weapons are better, the mechs are better, the equipment is better.

MMOs steer clear of "alpha" classes because they are a player funnel. People don't like being disadvantaged especially in competitive PvP. When the "alpha" class comes around they'll get their *** handed to them and then conclude that they must join them or be forced to be a lower tier of player class.

Entire MMOs have been completely ruined by "alpha" classes (I'm talking Star Wars Galaxies here). And the end result is that after a few years everyone and their mother has achieved their alpha class and things are made even worse for those who chose to play the game their way.

Except in MWO there won't be anything to unlock or earn, just a faction selection screen at pilot creation.

The average player is going to join MWO, pick whatever faction, and start playing. Perhaps they lucked out and went clan right away. Maybe they foolishly chose IS.

Eventually they're going to learn the advantages of being clan and at that moment they'll make the decision to either jump ship and change to a clan faction (even if it means starting a new character) or quit the game altogether.

There's no incentive to arbitrarily gimping one's self especially when the only real reason this imbalance exists at all is to sate a few purists' egos and stay true to some inane fluff lore which didn't even make sense at the time it was written.

I remember when the clans were introduced to TT. Players were beyond miffed as the clan tech itself was terribly imbalanced (particularly the introduction of double heat sinks). It was bad for gameplay then and it'll be bad for gameplay now.

Anyways, this advantage will obviously create a huge faction imbalance. Players will want the strongest and the best and I can assure you all that they absolutely will not give a **** about any difference between the two faction sets in the lore and they sure as well won't be playing the game by the absurd clan rules (I always LOL super hard when purists bring that up as a means to balance the two faction sets, Yeah, because some GM is going to watch every match and delete your clan mech if you don't play by clan rules, right? LOL).

MWO simply can't have advantages and disadvantages on this scale.

And let's not forget that some of the clan tech didn't even take balance into account. For instance, clan LRMs. Their weight was derived from the Mad Cat's stock loadout as that was designed before the TT weights were final. This meant that the LRM weights came from making some fluff loadout for a piece of artwork feasible rather than accounting for real balance.

It's time to fix terrible mistakes like that.

The final problem with clan tech is that since it obsolesces all IS tech in the game the tech advancement for IS players becomes nothing but a race to acquisition as much clan tech as quickly as possible (assuming clan tech can be mounted on IS mechs). This reduces every single IS mech in the game to being nothing but a clan tech refit.

The technological advantage of clan technology is simply far too great to ever allow into the hands of players.

Now, the second issue:

Omnimechs

The arguments against omnis will be very similar to the arguments against clan tech but the truth is that omnis are superior to battlemechs in every way. They make battlemechs completely obsolete.

Which means battlemechs become nothing but a worthless stepping stone to omnimechs much like how all IS technology will be nothing but a worthless stepping stone to clan tech.

You're not ever going to see any Highlanders or Cyclops running around if Sunders are made available.

The ultimate solution is to go ahead and include omnimechs but convert them to battlemechs for the sake of gameplay. That way we can still enjoy the mechs themselves but they won't destroy any hope for the rest of the battlemechs.

Conclusion

In the end the inclusion of both omnimechs and clan technology will devolve all end game into nothing but omni and clan tech acquisition races. IS mechs with IS tech will not be able to compete at the highest levels of gameplay which will be absolutely devastating for any leagues which spring up around BT roleplay constructs.

Factions will be wildly imbalanced and 50-75% of the mechs and equipment in the game will be utterly worthless at high level play.

So if your goal is to empty the IS factions, fill up the clans as much as possible, and then rip the hearts out of dozens of classic and iconic mechs then by all means, have your clan tech and omnis.

Do you want balanced gameplay?
Do you want balanced factions?

Then you know that clan tech must be excluded from the game entirely and that there can't be any technical differences between omnimechs and battlemechs.

i've not read the rest of this listing yet... however... i find that if you tie in a previous article--another forum peice-- about "Build Values" (you'll have to search the forums for the reference...) then.. YES.. Clan Tech CAN be used and balanced... at the double cost of BUILD VALUES.. provided that something similar to this is established into the game play... the same can be said for omni-mechs.... yeah.. the Sunder is great... but... it is only a meshing of firepower and electronics and the cost of extreme on both ends.... if you want pure assault electronics.. the Cyclops still wins hands down... and as for firepower.. --relying on scouts and or other Electronic warefare mechs to do their job-- then... Atlas, Stalker, Imp, Mauler and other heavy - assault mechs would really come in handy.... ... and finally... the idea of a Sunder to begin with... is.. if my mech memory serves me correctly... is that the Sunder was derived and reverse-engineered from clan tech......

as far as actual game play goes in this new rendision of everyone's favorite MechCombat Gameing.... Combat has not yet been fully described to us... nor has any other "nit-pickings" of the game.... everyone is still going on what they know best ... whether it be the MW franchise, the BattleTech Franchise (both TT, CCG, or anyother form)....

you may take all this being my opinion on things.. but, i've played the cardgame--still have plenty of decks-- i've played Solaris, 3025, MW2, MW2-Merc, MW3, MW3-PM, MW4, MW4-Merc, MW4-BK, + Clan and IS mech packs, MechAssault 1 & 2, MechCommander 1 & 2 and expansions.... and i still to this day find that the TRUEST forms--aside fromt he original TableTop pen and paper... would fall under MW2,3, MC1, and the CardGame... where All rules blended reletivly nicely. When the clans invaded.. YES.. the IS got their tails kicked for many years.. but it never made their own mechs obsolete.. Fittings, yes for the most part.. but not the entire thing. Preferences will still prevail over "the size that matters" idea, which is EXACTLY what you were ranting about. This is the FIRST MECH GAME to come out of the woodworks that has potential to steer the franchise back to it's roots, away from where Microsoft had taken it... HAVE FAITH that they will do the right thing and keep this game true towards it's nature.... my personal hope is that there will also be an allowence for areal combat with VTOLs, Rotary, and jets... and that they dwarf MWLL and MW2,3,4+ the same way MPBT:3025 dwarfed MPBT:Solaris. (both of which were excelient games for their times...

Thank you.
Knt.Maverick -<SCORPIONS>- 17th Avalon Hussars

[Gaius Cavadus]

Adridos, on 09 November 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

Tech means they would fight in IS mechs and thats stupid.

Learn to read.

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

Omnimechs

[...]

The ultimate solution is to go ahead and include omnimechs but convert them to battlemechs for the sake of gameplay. That way we can still enjoy the mechs themselves but they won't destroy any hope for the rest of the battlemechs.

Edited by Cavadus, 09 November 2011 - 12:29 PM.

[Kalunta]

katadder, on 09 November 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

oh and on the 100ton point - 100tons is slow, in my 60ton mech i can circle you avoiding the worst of your fire whilst hitting you in the same place again and again. yes you might have lots of armour everywhere but it dont help if you only get hit in the CT everytime (this is experience from other mechwarrior games, nobody any good plays assaults as they die quickly, I have even killed them piloting a raven)

+1

[Stormwolf]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

I never said that the clans couldn't have their mechs, just that their omnimechs would need to be converted into battlemechs. Please read my OP before criticizing it.

I have read your post, but you are not listening.
Everybody here gets that you want to level the playingfield by giving everyone the same tech. But in-universe with all the established storylines that doesn't make any sense.

You are essentially throwing out everything that was ever written during and after TRO: 3050. The entire mobilization of then "level 2" tech goes out of the window. The Wolcott, Twycross and Luthien Salvage that was reverse engineerd to create more advanced mechs would also go bye bye since there is no reason.

By this same reasoning you could only have the simple 3025 tech but not the 3050 upgrades, since there would also a big difference in power there too.

The game you want to create is essentially a extremely watered down game, which is horrible. We might finally get a correct implementation of omni's and special equipment, throwing that out would make the entire Clan invasion setting redundant.

Edited by stormwolf, 09 November 2011 - 12:35 PM.

[Adridos]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 12:26 PM, said:

Learn to read.

Talking to a wall has no effect, and so I stop our discussion at this point, rather than arguing for 10 more pages and you will still say something different.

[Stormwolf]

Adridos is right, this is pointless.

Cavadus, your proposed idea is never gonna happen, I know that you mean well to balance the game.

Later

[Darkmoose]

What does it matter, the clan mechs are not invincible, even with basic tech you can still beat them you just have to be smarter about it. So you don't attack the clans in open fields, you do it in cities, forests and swamps, where they don't have as much range advantage, the difference between a Clan AC/20 and an IS AC/20 is insignificant, if you can only see a block or a 100 meters, or how about teamwork most clan players will simply charge in, let them and then shoot them up from behind. I have a feeling that the Clans will be NPC's, but their tech will be salvageable, so everyone will start out more or less with the same opportunity to get Clan Tech, assuming you just can't buy it with cash or MW points or whatever..

[StrangeTaco]

So I'm not sure if this has been posted in another discussion or not, I've looked at them and haven't seen this posted so forgive me if this is just a rehash.

When/if the clan invasion begins, why not just distribute clan tech evenly throughout the IS and the Clans. I realize this isn't canon but this would solve a lot of balance problems with invading clans having superior firepower, heatsinks, etc. while giving people the ability to play as clans as well. So as far as keeping the game balanced I think this would be the best of both worlds.
Any thoughts?

[TheRulesLawyer]

One thing that has to happen to make clans vs IS work is to make sure that k/d ratio never shows up as a stat anywhere in the game. Show BV destroyed, show capture point, show win/loss. Any display of K/D or even kills and deaths where k/d can be derived will have people not playing anything else. Base leader boards on other things too. Less people will take a chance on inferior tech if it'll affect their precious stats.

[UncleKulikov]

Using Battlevalue would fix the clan's advantages. BV 5000 for a match would even things up quite a bit.

[Halflight]

Since engagements are going to be preset battles, just arrange them so that any IS vs. Clan battles give the IS side numerical superiority. Say one Star vs. two Lances - a 5:8 ratio in favor of the Inner Sphere. That should even up the odds some. If it's not enough, try three Lances.

Personally, I don't mind getting the short end of the stick when fighting Clan opponents. That's exactly what I expected and always have. It makes those incredibly hard won victories all the sweeter. And no, I don't expect the majority of gamers to share my perspective.