1084 replies to this topic

[Ken Fury]

Cache, on 11 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Not at all. If done right it would slow down the killing just a bit--something I hear needs to happen. This would be better than nerfing weapon damage across the board or buffing armor.

Are you less than intelligent, how would buffing hitpoints not slow the killing? I mean seriously, how you're getting that wrong is beyond me.

[CarnifexMaximus]

I vote yes. But I have to say, I do not want to see the old wavy flight path back. If it came down to choosing more damage vs loosing the flight path we have now I would say keep the current flight path.

Before I DESPISED srms because of the flight path, but I used them because they were an essential part of brawling, but I never enjoyed using them. Currently, I enjoy using them very much and don't mind the diminished damage.


But totally Awsome that this has been put to a community vote.

More stuff like this in the future!

[Felbombling]

While I applaud the attempt Paul and his team are making in an effort to curb heavy weapon boating, it will only shift the weapons around a bit. I still think a Clan assault Mech with 2x ER PPC, 2x ER Large Laser and 2x Large Pulse Laser will be very effective, while still being able to skirt the penalties. Paul needs to seriously look at the heat pool and apply penalties to Mech performance as the heat scale climbs. Weapons are fired far too frequently per heatsink cycle currently, so I don't know how that can be made to work. The game is so close to being amazing, is is fairly frustrating watching next to no movement on the pin-point alpha problems.

[arghmace]

Wales Grey, on 11 July 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

I agree, PGI should buff internal structure.

Internal structure same as armor is already doubled. Meanwhile ammo per ton is not, which is a pretty bad issue further encouraging the use of PPC's.

[Sharg]

Glucose, on 11 July 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yeah I feel like this is implemented a little wrong.

Wouldn't it make sense to have an Alpha Limit value of 10.

Each PPC is 5 alpha limit, each ER PPC is 5 alpha limit.

Each Ac20 is 10 alpha limit.

Now if you fire any combination of weapons in a single alpha strike you'll want to fit under the spread? Do we really care that they are exactly the same weapon type?

The interesting part of this system, is then you can assign different alpha limits to different mechs. You could let the hunchback be more of an alpha striker.. for example.

This is how the max alpha should be implemented. Allows a TON more flexibility.

[Shumabot]

Cache, on 11 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Not at all. If done right it would slow down the killing just a bit--something I hear needs to happen. This would be better than nerfing weapon damage across the board or buffing armor.

It would make ac40 so intensely dominant that no other weapon would ever see play and jagers would sit on iron thrones atop a mountain of atlas skulls. It would also make the game incredibly slow and boring with every mech constantly redlining/shutting down while staring at eachother. The tabletops systems do not translate into a live game environment, the damage is wrong, the heat scaling is way off, the refire rate is way off, the ranges are nonsense, the armor values are nonsense. Nothing in the tabletop makes for a good live game. That's why no previous mechwarrior game has tried it and most of MWOs problems come from the things they actually DID copy from the tabletop.

[zhajin]

my feedback, much of which has likely been said.

ppcs and erppcs should be in the same group, or maybe set erppcs to 1 if that is not currently possible. LL should be set to 3. I suspect the ac20 penalty will have little effect on dual ac20 builds.

also its hard to say with at this time but i suspect ssrm = 3, srm4 = 3, and srm6 = 2, would be better, once srms are balanced.


oh and one more thing. you over engineer everything, fix the core and the rest will fall into place with simple tweaks. this whole scheme just makes things overly complex and does little to address some of the real issues.

Edited by zhajin, 11 July 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Im all for no.

Much prefer AC & LBX be addressed first, the SRM is an additional gun to brawlers, not the meat and potatoes.

however, if a buff will make brawling more fun in the meantime, and they get nurfed later, it could work.

still, overall i think that for the tonnage and ammo needs the SRM is currently in a fine place, and buffing it before fixing HSR issues is a very very bad idea.

REMEMBER THE PPC? yeah, that's right, once HSR is fixed everyones gonna scream bloody murder over the SRM again.

[Wales Grey]

Shumabot, on 11 July 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

most of MWOs problems come from the things they actually DID copy from the tabletop.

[Solis Obscuri]

I'd have preferred some convergence mechanics being fixed instead, but I'm open to seeing how this fix works.

Regarding weapons boating, though, it looks like I'd take penalties for firing 3 PPCs, but firing 2 PPCs and 2 ERPPCs together in an alpha wouldn't cause any trouble - same deal if I fired, say 2 LRM-15s, 1 LRM-20 and 1 LRM-10 instead of 4 LRM-15s. And firing a pair of ERPPCs and a Gauss Rifle is still going to give 35 points of near-hitscan damage in one concentrated location. Any plans for dealing with firing weapons with similar characteristics together in the same alpha?

As for SRMs, I don't think hit registration is the only problem. Buffing them to 2.0 damage won't break the game, IMO they weren't an issue at 2.5 damage except on the CPLT-A1 where they got a bit cheesy.

[Damocles69]

Thontor, on 11 July 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Just overheard Garth on the NGNG twitch stream confirming that currently, PPCs and ERPPCs act as seperate weapons when it comes to this penalty. So a 2 PPC + 2 ERPPC mech will incur no penalty.

However, he also confirmed that this will change at some point in the future and they will count as the same weapon, as far as the boating penalty is concerned.

EDIT: damnit Iason, you beat me to it by 1 minute.

WTF?!?!? I don't even... WHY IN GOD'S NAME isn't it going in like this originally? Is the guy that codes this on vacation? This will change nothing
Devs, once again, =fail

Edited by Damocles69, 11 July 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[Phorashi]

Niko Snow, on 11 July 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Tell us what you think of the latest news on heat scale from Paul.

Spoiler

… *Thunder booms in the distance*…

Arriving for June 16th… heat scale on high weapon count alphas.

As promised, once systems are in place for new balancing/tuning features, I will let you know about them as they enter test. What we have seen so far is very positive. There are some tweaks that need to be done but those will come with subsequent patches. The key here is to get this feature enabled to allow you, the Beta testers to see the effects and adjust your gameplay or meta-gameplay as needed.

This is very experimental and is being addressed aggressively as I mentioned in my previous weapons update. The first set of numbers are for the immediate effect on the current meta-game but more weapons and balancing will occur with each patch you see on our path to Launch. That being said, here is a table of maximum weapons of each weapon type you can fire without incurring the heat penalty. Internally we call this value Max Alpha.

Weapon System	Max Alpha
PPC	2
ERPPC	2
LRM-15	2
Large Laser	2
Medium Laser	6
AC/20	1
SRM-2	4
SSRM-2	4
SRM-4	4
SRM-6	3

Firing more weapons than Max Alpha makes heat generation grow exponentially. For example, from the table above, if you fire 2 PPCs, you will receive no heat penalty. Fire 3 and there will be a noticeable heat increase. Fire 4, it starts to get significant. Beyond that, you’re playing with fire.

What about SRMs?!?! Buff them to 2.5!!!

Nuh uh. 2.5 SRM damage causes the same effect as the previous LRM-aggedon. While funny to test, the 6-SRM6 Catapult will decimate any Assault class Mech in 3 volleys. The third volley doesn’t even have to be a full volley, 2 volleys following up with a medium laser will probably kill most builds in the game. So what am I going to do about this? Well let me explain an issue…

Many of you have cited hit detection errors. We’re seeing this as well. While it happens across almost all Mechs, it’s most noticeable with small Mech chassis. Bumping damage is going to help deal a small amount more damage to small Mechs, but the larger Mechs are going to be destroyed VERY quickly. We are investigating the root cause of these detection errors but it’s a deep problem. We need to find out if it’s in HSR (host state rewind) or is it in the simulation running on the server etc etc. Once found we will be pouring heavy resources on to the problem to fix it ASAP. However, I can tell you this, it’s going to take a while to find due to its complexity.

That being said, here’s an opportunity for you to decide your fate when dealing with SRMs. In this feedback thread (http://mwomercs.com/...-hit-detection/), there is a poll. You can vote to bump SRM damage up to 2.0, not this patch but next, or leave damage as is until hit detection is fixed. Keep in mind, this bump in damage is going to be a fairly big world of hurt for larger Mechs. NOTE: Cut off for voting will be Sunday 11:59PM PST.

Taking damage beyond 120% heat.
This value is going to be reduced to 100%. Depending on how long you're in a state of overheat will determine how much damage you take. If you overheat by 1 point and are only in overheat for a very short amount of time, you probably won't take any damage at all.

I reported pauls post for trolling because he's toying with my emotions. I want this game to survive but the way PGI is balancing it will kill the game.

[Shumabot]

I love the fact that the SRM buff, something 100% of the playerbase wants, and wants visibly, is put to a vote while max alpha heat scaling, something the majority of the player base thinks is a terrible idea is getting pushed in without asking.

It's as if this poll is a farce.

[El Bandito]

Do it. SRMs need to have that 2.0 damage.

ASAP.

[PropagandaWar]

FireSlade, on 11 July 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Paul thanks for letting us vote on what gets done for SRMs while hit detection is addressed. My argument against SRMs getting a damage boost to 2 per missile is I believe that it is a bit too much. I run 2 ASRM6s on my Heavy Metal now and at under 100 meters it is like being hit with a AC20 (yes the twin SRM6s hit one section up close) that weighs 10 tons and has a faster firing rate. A buff like this was done in the Closed Beta with the PPCs and after they addressed HSR the meta drastically changed towards PPC boating. I can see the forums being flooded with "SRMs are OP nerf them now!" like they do now with PPCs. Personally I find PPCs to be fine balance wise but being able to take an assault mech out and drill a pin point alpha of 40 damage at 540-810 meters; pin point being the big issue. It is no different than the AC40 Jagermech but since that is a glass cannon and only can do that at 270 meters with limited ammo no one complains about it. By wanting 2 damage for SRMs now instead of being patient is a form of instant gratification and that worries me that it might be too hasty and afterwards if it is too powerful and we cry for a nerf PGI will just say that they told us so. As for everyone crying that the Max Alpha mechanic will not work and is saying how stupid PGI is for trying it; can we just wait and see how it works before the knee jerk reactions???

Your running them with Artemis. You are paying big time for that and they have to be within 100 meters soooo. Here I will put 4 medium lasers and hit you pinpoint for 20 points of damage at four tons and a range of 540meters, versus that SRM 6 at three tons (Four with Artimes) for 12 points at 270 meters scattered all over the mech . How about I hit you with 4 erppcs at 1000 meters several times for 40 points of damage pinpint? With a SRM 6 you have to time your shots and hope some hit and get close for almost all weapons to be born on you. I could throw in the ammo portion over heatsinks for this bit but its been said time and time again.

Instant gratification is the boats which I dont drive. Its the borked HSR lights its the uber alphas. Thats instant gratification. Medium pilots have to get in to get dirty and usually won't run artemis because they need speed and firepower just to compete.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 11 July 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[and zero]

GingerBang, on 11 July 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

This is easily the least intelligent design i have seen from PGI to date. This arbitrary weapon penalty is just stupid. i'm sorry PGI, but it is. Heat should revolve around the mechs ability to distribute it, not whether or not you are firing some random number of weapons. It makes sense that 2 PPC's breaks a heat limit on a hunchback, but on an awesome too? Why on earth would an awesome suffer the same heat penalty as a hunchback when firing PPC's?


Seriously PGI, what is your reasoning behind this? It makes no sense what so ever to me. Not only does it seem like it is just going to DESTROY game balance (like it isn't already shot), but it is going to hurt mechs that already hurt. At the very least make these heat penalties custom to each mech just like all the other quirks. Put in some effort for once instead of doing a blanket "fix" that works for 3 mechs and breaks 9. This is why so many people no longer like your game. Ridiculous blanket strategy design changes are why people keep leaving your game. This is why you are currently the laughing stock of the free to play world. I'm not trying to be mean, i'm trying to be honest. This, does not make sense, at all. You need to go back to the drawing table, or put at least SOME effort into crafting these characteristics for EACH MECH. An Awesome should not be penalized for firing two PPC's out of his right torso, and then firing 1 more out of its left arm, with 19 heat sinks seperating the PPC on the LEFT ARM, to the weapons fired on the RIGHT TORSO.

So sad, so true.

[ObsidianSpectre]

aniviron, on 11 July 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Yes, the "too powerful weapon penalty" that is slated to nerf the medium laser, srm2/4, and only the lrm15 but not 5 10 or 20. And gauss, gauss is apparently just fine- or maybe it was just too hard to think of a proper solution, since adding heat percentage to gauss is a non-penalty anyway.

I for one am glad they're finally taking action against the dreaded HBK-4P. Those things have been dominating the battlefield for too long! There's hardly a match that goes by where I don't see 6 on each side, gleefully and swiftly slaughtering any poor 2 PPC/2ERPPC stalker or 2PPC/1ERPPC/1Gauss highlander they get their sights on. I'm glad those builds will finally have an advantage over the 9ML HBK.

[Sharp Spikes]

So, heat penalty system will go live despite huge thread with negative feedback on it. The ability of PGI to ignore its player-base is... Impressive. Most impressive. Time of uninstall is nigh.

P.S. For those of us (mwo players) who feel the same, googling for something like "Stompy Bot" might be a good idea. Maybe for those who don't, too.

[Khobai]

This is the worst idea PGI has implemented to date. It is overcomplicated and does absolutely nothing to address the problem with convergence. All this is going to accomplish is making 2ERPPC/Gauss the standard sniper build.

[mooky]

Don't need the bump to 2.0, I still can do 500-600 points and sometimes a bit more in a 5x SRM6 splat cat in a match curerntly. Fix the hit detection sure, and once that's fixed adjust the SRM damage.

As for the Boating issue, I think they are taking a sledge hammer aproach when a scalpal is necessary. Only ER/PPC's are the issue really, increase heat of each (just a smidge, PPC +1 / ERPPC +2 ) and see where that goes. People will have to manage heat better which means fire less often, or chain fire them, or group them themselves. Problem solved?

Edited by mooky, 11 July 2013 - 11:44 AM.