174 replies to this topic

[and zero]

DaZur, on 08 February 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Interesting... When you guys drone on it valid... when we do we're trolling.

Like I stated much earlier in this diatribe, apparently everyone is welcome to their opinions around here so long as they align with the forum intelligentsia.

Roadbeer usually trolls, but what he said simply reinforced my point so I was confused....

[Deathlike]

DaZur, on 08 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

Just an interesting observation...

95 posts in this little exchange of ideas and at best I counted two members that I might accept as reasonably recent players and not one.... out of 95 posts... not one new "green" player lending their voice to proclaim the existence and the mechanics behind ghost heat to be so vexing as to leave them dumbfounded.

Makes one wonder where the outrage is being voiced?

Chances are, they are hiding out in the "new player help" section. Here is where the big boys (or big whiners) argue.

[Victor Morson]

DaZur, on 08 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

Just an interesting observation...

95 posts in this little exchange of ideas and at best I counted two members that I might accept as reasonably recent players and not one.... out of 95 posts... not one new "green" player lending their voice to proclaim the existence and the mechanics behind ghost heat to be so vexing as to leave them dumbfounded.

Makes one wonder where the outrage is being voiced?

Two things: New players cannot post on forums outside of New Players & Strategy & Guides. So there's that. It comes up there frequently.

Second, most people never even know what is going on and think the game just sucks. Take Bobby Newbie joining today's experience:

• Forced to choose a handicapped 'mech, picks the biggest one (Stalker)
  
• Gets into game with no idea his missiles have a 180m minimum, opens fire on a guy charging him
  
• Two salvos later, because of Ghost Heat, Bobby is now shutdown and taking internal damage; he has no idea what is going on, assumes LRMs are really hot? He can't seem to fire a shot!
  
• Thanks to matchmaker Bobby is now cored out by a 2x UAC/5 2x PPC Highlander while trying to ask what he's doing wrong.

God help him when he buys a real 'mech if he doesn't uninstall for 25 drops of that, and now has to contend with UI2.0's mechlab. Now he can accidentally kill himself in all kinds of new ways!

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 February 2014 - 01:35 AM.

[and zero]

Victor Morson, on 09 February 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

Two things: New players cannot post on forums outside of New Players & Strategy & Guides. So there's that. It comes up there frequently.

Second, most people never even know what is going on and think the game just sucks. Take Bobby Newbie joining today's experience:

• Forced to choose a handicapped 'mech, picks the biggest one (Stalker)
  
• Gets into game with no idea his missiles have a 180m minimum, opens fire on a guy charging him
  
• Two salvos later, because of Ghost Heat, Bobby is now shutdown and taking internal damage; he has no idea what is going on, assumes LRMs are really hot? He can't seem to fire a shot!
  
• Thanks to matchmaker Bobby is now cored out by a 2x UAC/5 2x PPC Highlander while trying to ask what he's doing wrong.

God help him when he buys a real 'mech if he doesn't uninstall for 25 drops of that, and now has to contend with UI2.0's mechlab. Now he can accidentally kill himself in all kinds of new ways!

New players used to quit because the new player experience in game was so terrible.

Now they quit because the experience in the UI/Mechlab is so horrible.

In all seriousness, try to imagine how confusing and overwhelming the new UI/mechlab is to a brand new player who knows nothing of battletech.

Edited by and zero, 09 February 2014 - 01:49 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

This is why PGI or IGP will go bankrupt by the end of 2014.
They just aren't good at their profession in the slightest, so many obvious things get left out.

Ghost Heat should never have been implemented as the band aid, the fact it was and no in game data is available as to it even being there is well....amateur and baffling... you can't introduce such an important mechanic that changes how the game is played and not indicate it anywhere.....

This game should never have left beta, we seem to have this shotgun/scatter gun approach to developing and adding more new broken systems instead of fixing what's already here and broken.

[ReXspec]

DV McKenna, on 09 February 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

This is why PGI or IGP will go bankrupt by the end of 2014.
They just aren't good at their profession in the slightest, so many obvious things get left out.

Ghost Heat should never have been implemented as the band aid, the fact it was and no in game data is available as to it even being there is well....amateur and baffling... you can't introduce such an important mechanic that changes how the game is played and not indicate it anywhere.....

This game should never have left beta, we seem to have this shotgun/scatter gun approach to developing and adding more new broken systems instead of fixing what's already here and broken.

...and apparently, people who complain about it (like you or me) are the minority (according to some would-be scholars on our forums). -.-

I don't know where those people get their stats, but in every single match I've been in, and whenever I've asked about ghost heat in the public teamspeak or chat, the response to my inquiries about what people thought about ghost heat is universally negative and the reaction ranges from, "what the hell is ghost heat?" to, "ghost heat is one of the sloppiest balance mechanics out there."

The implications of both reactions are equally bad.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 February 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Roadbeer]

ReXspec, on 09 February 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

...and apparently, people who complain about it (like you or me) are the minority (according to some would-be scholars on our forums). -.-

Lulz

ReXspec, on 09 February 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

I don't know where those people get their stats, but in every single match I've been in, and whenever I've asked about ghost heat in the public teamspeak or chat...

Hyperbole and anecdotal twofer...

ReXspec, on 09 February 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

the response to my inquiries about what people thought about ghost heat is universally negative

D'uh, I don't think anyone said they're a fan of it...anywhere...ever. Some just don't make a huge deal out of it...

ReXspec, on 09 February 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

and the reaction ranges from, "what the hell is ghost heat?"

The most common of the two response...

ReXspec, on 09 February 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

to, "ghost heat is one of the sloppiest balance mechanics out there."

The more informed response... though I notice you've left out the the overwhelming response you get which is "STFU and Pew Pew, save the crying for the forums

[Veranova]

For the record if they removed ghost heat, I would not hesitate to build a 6ppc stalker.
I've had way too much fun in my Boom-Jager recently not to try that build out.

But yes visual indicators in the cockpit AND mechlab, are essential.

Edited by Veranova, 09 February 2014 - 06:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Victor Morson, on 07 February 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

No, Heat Scaling shouldn't be documented in Mechlab or in the cockpit, and should continue to surprise newbies, while forcing veterans to check Smurfy's (an external site) and use Macros (an external program to time the shots) because the game sure doesn't?

$10 says you got so caught up in white knighting Ghost Heat you didn't even read what the actual post was about.

Smurfy lists my Jager40 as having Managable heat 67% on the front page, weapons lab shows 77% but not that the weapon generates +14 heat firing 2.

Just checked a single AC20 and the same base 10 sinks (singles instead of double) has the same 67% and 77%. There is no indication of Ghost Heat on the main page or the Weaponslab.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 February 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Lord Perversor]

Victor Morson, on 07 February 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

This is not a discussion if you like Heat Scaling/Ghost Heat or not. For the record I think it is the most incompetently written system I have ever seen in a long history of observing game design and it hurts my brain. But that is either here nor there.

This thread is about something else. If Heat Scaling is going to stay, it needs documentation in game and it needs a UI both in mechlab and in the cockpit.

Right now, there is a trial 'mech - a new users first experience to the game - that will get ludicrously hot because you need to manage the half-second delay Ghost Heat enforces, yet there is not a single thing in game whatsoever.

In fact, there's not even a sticky on the forums, or a youtube video from PGI explaining it. Absolutely nothing.

---

So what should be done?

In Mechlab: Weapons should specifically list their Heat Scaling attributes. New players should not have to check Smurfy's for this information, where it is both neatly laid out, but also lists exact heat penalties from going over. New players should not have to access the forums and search around to find Smurfy's to even understand why their builds are running way hotter than listed.

Given the wild penalty difference in Ghost Heat this is every bit as importantas stats like Range and Recycle. If you violate Ghost Heat with, say, 5 Streak/2s.. it's not even an issue, but if you fire 2 AC/20s, prepare to shutdown/explode. This is to say nothing of the LRM locking system new players are steadily confused on, firing setups like 1x LRM20 3x LRM10 without realizing that creates 4 times LRM20 Ghost Heat; they simply know their 'mechs are very hot and have no clue WHY!

In The Cockpit: An indicator NEEDS to be added to the cockpit to clearly indicate when the half-second delay is up. Right now people are forced to use macros to chain together builds like this, or to simply try to gauge in their head. And again, new players will have absolutely no idea what's going on, and without this indicator, will have no idea when it is safe to fire and when it is not.

---

I'd like it removed. Back when we could have polls, a clear 85%+ people wanted it removed. Only a handful of people like it, and many of them don't understand how/why it failed, and that the 6 PPC boats would not return even if the system was removed.

But to keep this system and then provide absolutely no UI to it, or indicators and simply use it to punish people who were never told why they are being punished is ludicrous. A new player that buys a Jagermech and tries to setup a twin AC/20 setup is likely to kill themselves repeatedly and never figure out why until they uninstall, the way things are right now... and again, you put trial 'mechs out there that violate Ghost Heat!

---

In summary: This is awful for everyone. It's bad for new players who don't know what's going on. It's based for veterans who know about the mechanic, but don't know to check Smurfy's for exact details or know the exact limits by heart (again, we had to learn from an external fan site). It's bad for competitive pilots who are forced to run external software to time shots because the game fails to provide ANY indicator when it's actually safe to fire.

If Ghost Heat is going to stay, GIVE IT A FREAKING UI.

Meh i would like to know how Heat works in the whole game since no one aside PGI have a clue of all the factors.

a: Does mech speed affect the total heat threshold or a % of dissipation rate (0 at stop up to XX when running at top speed)
b: same thing with JJ why they raise heat over X % but after my mech surpass such value JJ seem to generate no heat
c: Flamer scaling heat related to time to overall mech heat or a mixture of time+heat
d: factors who affect HS efficiency, water helps to Cool faster, that still works? wich other factors can affect them?
e: Does the total mech Heat affect the weapon heat generation? why when i fire over 50% heat weapons seems to produce more heat and take longer to dissipate it?

Just some of the Question i would love to know.

[Jabilo]

Ghost heat, or "heat scale penalties" as PGI call it should have:

• An up to date forum sticky.
  
• Be featured comprehensively in an upcoming "weapons and targeting tutorial".
  
• Be integrated in to UI 2.0 mechlab.

Now, points 2 and 3 take time. That's fair enough. But the fact that the forum post is out of date, is not stickied and has incomplete information is pretty much indefensible.

How much time to update a forum post? 2 minutes?

Edited by Jabilo, 09 February 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[Sandpit]

Lord Perversor, on 09 February 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

Meh i would like to know how Heat works in the whole game since no one aside PGI have a clue of all the factors.

a: Does mech speed affect the total heat threshold or a % of dissipation rate (0 at stop up to XX when running at top speed)
b: same thing with JJ why they raise heat over X % but after my mech surpass such value JJ seem to generate no heat
c: Flamer scaling heat related to time to overall mech heat or a mixture of time+heat
d: factors who affect HS efficiency, water helps to Cool faster, that still works? wich other factors can affect them?
e: Does the total mech Heat affect the weapon heat generation? why when i fire over 50% heat weapons seems to produce more heat and take longer to dissipate it?

Just some of the Question i would love to know.

http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/
http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

There you go. It's all explained.

[ReXspec]

Roadbeer, on 09 February 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

Lulz

Hyperbole and anecdotal twofer...

D'uh, I don't think anyone said they're a fan of it...anywhere...ever. Some just don't make a huge deal out of it...

The most common of the two response...

The more informed response... though I notice you've left out the the overwhelming response you get which is "STFU and Pew Pew, save the crying for the forums

Even if I had numbers or stats to back up my claims (which I do. I'm just still working on compiling these numbers) I doubt I could convince you that my claims are not "hyperbole and anecdotal twofer." As it has already been made obvious that you, Sandpit and the rest of his white-knight flunkies will believe whatever the f*ck you guys want.

"STFU and Pew Pew, save the crying for the forums."
Ironic that you say my claims are "hyperbole and anecdotal twofer" when you use an asinine jab like this.

The response from players when I ask them about this is, surprisingly enough, constructive most of the time.

Even if you disagree with me (and I expect you will) the fact that you didn't really address the last line of my post is actually quite telling.

By the way, the last lines of that post was this (in case you forgot):

ReXspec, on 09 February 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

...response to my inquiries about what people thought about ghost heat is universally negative and the reaction ranges from, "what the hell is ghost heat?" to, "ghost heat is one of the sloppiest balance mechanics out there."

The implications of both reactions are equally bad.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 February 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[Deathlike]

Veranova, on 09 February 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

For the record if they removed ghost heat, I would not hesitate to build a 6ppc stalker.
I've had way too much fun in my Boom-Jager recently not to try that build out.

But yes visual indicators in the cockpit AND mechlab, are essential.

The 6 PPC Stalker with it having "stock heat" specs makes it unusable for alphas, let alone sustainable fire. Only when it was @ 8 heat, where it went off the rails due to how the heat system works in this game.

Lord Perversor, on 09 February 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

Meh i would like to know how Heat works in the whole game since no one aside PGI have a clue of all the factors.

a: Does mech speed affect the total heat threshold or a % of dissipation rate (0 at stop up to XX when running at top speed)

It affects dissipation. It's more noticeable when you have SHS, but equally notable on hot maps. The exact math? I have no idea. Your speed to a limited extent does affect it either way.

Quote

b: same thing with JJ why they raise heat over X % but after my mech surpass such value JJ seem to generate no heat

It's probably a fixed value (not sure if it's based on # of JJs though)... DHS dissipates most of it as it is generated. When you have SHS, it is very noticeable.

Quote

c: Flamer scaling heat related to time to overall mech heat or a mixture of time+heat

There's no published formula, but it's slow and ineffective for the most part.

Quote

d: factors who affect HS efficiency, water helps to Cool faster, that still works? wich other factors can affect them?

Map temps affect it. Water does work (although you'd need SHS to benefit). It depends how deep you are in water though. A mech like a Jenner does dip into water quite a bit, but on the other hand, it's kinda disappointing that water doesn't affect movement at all (yet we have all that movement code for hills and such).

Quote

e: Does the total mech Heat affect the weapon heat generation? why when i fire over 50% heat weapons seems to produce more heat and take longer to dissipate it?

It doesn't. If it ever did, it would make people consider more about heat, but it doesn't. What you should be more concerned about is having enough heat capacity to do all the stuff you'd need, by adding more DHS as possible. Instead of worrying too much about heat dissipation, heat capacity through additional DHS would expand it, allowing more alphas within a shorter period of time, despite the fact that the dissipation isn't even 2.0 across the board, so it's dependent upon heat storage to handle heat generation.

[Joseph Mallan]

I wouldn't mind seeing your numbers ReX. As long as you don't include bunches of Algebra. I have a good eye seeing what trends the numbers show.

Got a lot of years working in statsics thanks to data collection at work.

Oh and if read out of context (like it is)... SandPits quote in your sig is 100% true. The Truth will always be the truth and requires no additional "proof".

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 February 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[Sandpit]

ReXspec, on 09 February 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Even if I had numbers or stats to back up my claims (which I do. I'm just still working on compiling these numbers) I doubt I could convince you that my claims are not "hyperbole and anecdotal twofer." As it has already been made obvious that you, Sandpit and the rest of his white-knight flunkies will believe whatever the f*ck you guys want.

"STFU and Pew Pew, save the crying for the forums."
Ironic that you say my claims are "hyperbole and anecdotal twofer" when you use an asinine jab like this.

The response from players when I ask them about this is, surprisingly enough, constructive most of the time.

Even if you disagree with me (and I expect you will) the fact that you didn't really address the last line of my post is actually quite telling.

By the way, the last lines of that post was this (in case you forgot):

Your data is biased and not a good indicator

That's like starting a poll asking "Would you prefer lower prices on stuff?"
Of course most are going to say yes. That's doesn't mean it would be a "good" decision for PGI.

You can compile data in the way you're speaking of but it's biased to begin with due to the nature of the question. You can't get good unbiased data like that.
Not to mention the ones saying "What is ghost heat?" Obviously learned to play and adapt to it or are new players that came in after ghost heat was implemented so of course if you say "Hey, if they removed ghost heat your mechs would run cooler" it's going to get the response you're wanting.

[ReXspec]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind seeing your numbers ReX. As long as you don't include bunches of Algebra. I have a good eye seeing what trends the numbers show.

Got a lot of years working in statsics thanks to data collection at work.

When I finish collecting them, I'll run them by you first before posting'em, Joe. The issue right now is how many games to document. Right now I've documented about 265 games and the reaction to the discussion, but the rather daunting issue is what my target number for data collection should be... and right now I'm stuck between 1,000 - 5,000 matches.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 February 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[ReXspec]

Sandpit, on 09 February 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Your data is biased and not a good indicator

That's like starting a poll asking "Would you prefer lower prices on stuff?"
Of course most are going to say yes. That's doesn't mean it would be a "good" decision for PGI.

You can compile data in the way you're speaking of but it's biased to begin with due to the nature of the question. You can't get good unbiased data like that.
Not to mention the ones saying "What is ghost heat?" Obviously learned to play and adapt to it or are new players that came in after ghost heat was implemented so of course if you say "Hey, if they removed ghost heat your mechs would run cooler" it's going to get the response you're wanting.

You're assuming that the data is being collected solely on the basis that I'm asking players whether they like ghost heat or not. Truth is, I'm also asking what their suggestions for showing it in the U.I. would be, and what their possible alternatives for ghost heat would be.

I've taken a Sociology class before, Sandy. Don't you worry your pretty, little head about "biased" data.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 February 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Lord Perversor]

Sandpit, on 09 February 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/
http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

There you go. It's all explained.

Thx but unnecessary i know how Ghost Heat works and i have 0 issues with it.

My post refers to all the Heat generation/Dissipation that works as base in the game that no one of us not even smurfy with his datamining seems to know or explain.

Again what are the parameters that make my *mech* generate different heat when motionless or when running at full speed.

WHY? and i ask WHY? if i use JJ at full stop they generate like 15% heat , but if i use those at 99% heat at full speed they do nothing?

See those are the things Sanpit i wish PGI would bring us all the info so we can actually make educated guess instead blindy conjetures.

EDIT: as Deathlike properly answered some of this questions before as close as he could (because that whole knowledge about heat it's still obscure for us), that's why i mean about knowing how the full system works before starting to make wild guesses.

Edited by Lord Perversor, 09 February 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Roadbeer]

And of course your compiled data comes with screen shots/video, and % of the 24 players/match polled who responded, as well as the % of players/match who even know about it, correct?