894 replies to this topic

[xMintaka]

Khobai, on 23 June 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The damage isnt OP but the range definitely is. Being able to snipe people in their deployment zones on small maps like River City before they even have a chance to move out simply should not be allowed. The ranges on these weapons need to be pulled in. Even a slow mech like a Daishi should have a chance of getting out of its deployment zone without taking damage in the first 10 seconds.

The range of the CERPPC is exactly the same as the IS ERPPC. Nerf one and you have to nerf both.

But again, ERPPC's are not the problem. You cannot reliably hit the same component at 800m. ERPPC's in general are way too hot for the extra range they bring.

The problem is the fact that regular PPC's are great at all ranges where it is possibly to actively hit the same component every time.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 23 June 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

CERPPCs are much stronger than PPCs though. Mainly because of the range difference. CERPPCs and CERLLs both need their max ranges reduced back to their canon ranges of 690m and 750m respectively.

ISERPPCs should also have their max range reduced to 690m but their heat reduced to 13.5, while ISERLLs seem fine at 675m for the time being.

This would significantly reduce the damage these weapons do when sniping into the other teams deployment zone in the first 10 seconds of the match.

If the CERPPCs are to be made canon (heat/damage/range), why not give the IS equivalents the exact same treatment?

[1453 R]

Also:

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

The Cataphract with a 280 has a torso turn rate of 108 degrees per second. The Victor has one of 77 degrees per second. Big difference, but both are pretty usable. There's a line somewhere (i should probably test) where further increases in torso twist rate + arm turn rate aren't much slower than your average mouse turn speed. It's at that point where the difference isn't really 'felt' as much.

The problem with the Timerberwolf lies less in its twist speed than in its turn speed, however. Going back to the Victor and Cataphract, the Cataphract has a turn speed of 45.86 degrees per second, whereas the Victor has a turn speed, with a 385, of 55.18 degrees per second. It can rotate around itself one second faster than a Cataphract with a 280 can. The Timberwolf turns at a rate of 57.32 degrees per second and twists at 100 degrees per second.

Again though, we run into the problem of usability. Coupled with that speed and that torso twist rate, a Cataphract and Victor are both responsive enough that medium mechs and lights can't really maneuver around them if they're played properly. The math just doesn't add up. While you are sacrificing quite a bit by putting in such a large engine (maybe try a 350?) and you aren't particularly getting anything incredibly unique out of that short of a faster speed, how do you propose we make sure the optimized builds aren't more dominating than they already are?

In general, I would love for heavies and assaults to get their agility nerfed across the board. All of them. In the pilot tree they wouldn't get the maneuverability boosts that are already there. Mediums are pushed out of brawling roles due to this and are even still floating around with no unique role of their own.

As for later mechs, depends on what it can do. Mechs can be overpowered due to a variety of factors, not just speed. For example, the Awesome has the same agility capabilities that the Victor once had. It's not OP due to its hitboxes and hardpoint locations.

The Timberwolf has the best of everything. Good hardpoints, good agility, good hitboxes, plus the clan stuff like 7 crit endo/ferro, clan XLs, and 2 crit clan DHS.

Also nobody runs an XL 300 in their Dragon Slayers

Being fair, I didn’t say 300XL. S’far as I know, the only XL engines in any kind of top-tier match are the ones in the light ‘Mechs.

Anyways. Part of me agrees with lowering the overall mobility of the upper end of the weight spectrum, but you’d have to be very, very careful with it. A lot of the fatbros around here are hanging on by the very slimmest of threads already – if everything above 70 tons moved like a Dire Wolf, then the game would very swiftly become very unfun. That said…if we wanted to preserve the unique mobility profiles of ‘Mechs like the Victor and the Timber Wolf, we’d likely need to do something about armor being identical across all ‘Mechs of the same weight as well, in order to give plating advantages back to ‘Mechs which were traditionally big, tough tanks rather than agile strikers. As well as a revisiting of the quirks system and a re-evaluation of the entirety of the ‘Mech XP skill tree system.

All of this is incredibly unlikely to happen, as amazing as it’d be to see. Thus, we come back down to the same problem we have now – in the system we’re stuck with, how do you go about not systemically destroying the ability of anything bigger than a Cataphract to move more nimbly than a Dire Wolf (or a Banshe) without leaving instabilities that top players can exploit?

I don’t pretend to know the answer, but I sure as heck know what the answer isn’t.

[Pygar]

Psst. Jump Jet nerf...just sayin.

[Lucian Nostra]

Khobai, on 23 June 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The damage isnt OP but the range definitely is. Being able to snipe people in their deployment zones on small maps like River City before they even have a chance to move out simply should not be allowed. The ranges on these weapons need to be pulled in. Even a slow mech like a Daishi should have a chance of getting out of its deployment zone without taking damage in the first 10 seconds.

so if ERPPCS are so OP.. why are they so rare? Why do people gravitate towards regular PPCs and a few run a PPC with an ERPPC for close up firing?

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Ultimatum X, on 23 June 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Why does the cataphract have a 280 when it can run a 340xl?

If you meant 280 STD you can ignore the following, otherwise:


340xl would put CTF-3D at 54 degrees per second turn speed, 97 degrees per second torso twist, and it can still actually fit 1x JJ, Gauss (3 tons ammo) and 2x PPCs without shaving much armor.

Even with base 10 DHS in the engine at that point, it will have slightly higher cooling efficiency than the Timber Wolf because the Timber Wolf's cER PPCs are 30 heat per volley vs. 20 heat (so the HPS overall is higher, even though the Dissipation rate is higher).

The Timber Wolf has some advantages, but

1) The gap is closer than examples using huge engine disparities.
2) You don't really need a 340xl engine, and can drop down a few notches for more DHS to increase cooling even further.

Well for competitive play, people don't like running a Cataphract with an XL, period. It's just too damn squishie. 280 STD is a nice sweet spot and massively increases their survivability without hampering their loadout too much. I've seen 255s, but meh.

The problem with IS mechs is that to increase their survivability, they take a big manueverability hit. This is important even in sniping because a good team doesn't sit in one spot. Each jockeys for better position and the team that doesn't move and position as well will likely lose, unless the team with the better movement/position makes some grossly fatal mistake.

XLs for speed/tonnage work on certain chassis types (Shadow Hawks are a good example), and not so well on others. Heavier mechs need survivability since they're either fire support or damage soakers.

Currently the Timber Wolf dances around all this because it's running an XL, it's fast, and it soaks damage well and can carry a blistering array of firepower for any occasion.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 23 June 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Roland]

Lunatech, on 23 June 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

But again, ERPPC's are not the problem. You cannot reliably hit the same component at 800m.

Just so you know, there actually are players who can reliably hit the same component with PPC's from 800m.

[xMintaka]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Just so you know, there actually are players who can reliably hit the same component with PPC's from 800m.

If their target is moving in a straight line and not twisting.

At that range a 5 degree rotation of the torso is the difference between a side torso and an arm or CT.

The statement assumes equal skill on both parts. A player with the skill to hit a ST consistently at 800m is going to instinctively twist to protect that ST once it gets hit.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 23 June 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Theres tons of ways of making weapons different that dont involve FLD. Giving weapons damage types or utility abilities would be a couple ways of differentiating them.

And you get no argument from me on that point. I just don't want all weapons ending up being exactly the same with only visuals and sounds effects differentiating between them. Unfortunately, there seem to be people here who want exactly just that.

The only exception would be the gauss rifle. I just can't imagine it being anything else other than FLD.

[Adiuvo]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

My point is that jumpshot mechs aren't weak at any point. At worst, they're even at close range while enjoying a clear advantage beyond 270m. This puts brawlers in a bad place.

That match only shows that Caustic+Conquest gives a mixed deck loadout a shot. Almost any other situation apart from Forest Colony+Skirmish and they would've been outclassed by far.

You're right, aiming doesn't take much skill in MWO. Neither does heat management. Which is why both of those things need a skill-based adjustment. 1) Increase the number of trigger pulls it takes to deliver the damage of our current alpha strikes. 2) Make alpha strikes high risk, high reward shots. Both can be done by adopting a more CBT heat system along the lines suggested by Koniving with a lower heat cap, penalties for reaching different thresholds within the heat cap, and heat sinks that dissipate heat more rapidly. This would avoid having to mess with the convergence system or adding cone of fire.

And it would avoid having to nerf specific styles of play directly. It would affect them all equally.

At close range they're not even. SRMs are better. Whether or not SRMs need to be 'more better' is the right question.

Conquest had nothing to do with that. The points that were capped were done so with the bigs still in the typical positions they would be in on any mode. What Caustic allowed was for them to push over as one mass, which nearly overwhelmed us. Brawlers are strong in a variety of maps, such as River City, HPG, Forest Colony, etc.. Caustic, if anything, is one of the weaker brawling maps.

I never said aiming doesn't take much skill, only that's it's less of a part of skill than positioning. I don't believe aiming in MWO is as easy as you are trying to make it seem when, even in my high Elo matches, I see people spreading damage around, missing shots, and failing to put down hurt components.

Some kind of heat penalty system would be nice but I doubt it's going to be put in any time soon. They have more important mechanics to deal with.

[Gyrok]

zaepp, on 23 June 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

I don't know if that would be a good idea. AFAIK, with a Xl280 or XL300 we could build a 2x Gauss + 2 ERPPC.

With Jump Jets.

Sounds more like a war crime.

Edit: Just a FYI and for the record: I don't want it to move like a "big fat and slow assault mech", I would slightly tone down its agility.

The TW already has less comparable torso twist speed to a CTF...once again, real numbers are being overlooked...the SIZE of the engine is the culprit here, and for that, you pay a cost in tonnage EQUAL to what an IS mech with the same engine would pay in tonnage.

I fail to see how this really accomplishes anything...Clan mechs are FAST AND AGILE. That was what they did, and why the IS was so overwhelmed by them. If this was TT, that Atlas everyone runs at 57-60 kph after speed tweak would be going 48.6 and the DW that goes 53.5 after speed tweak would be going 54 (virtually no change). These mechs we have now for IS are already LIGHT YEARS ahead of what COMSTAR would have had to offer with SLDF tech, much less what the IS houses could field.

If you think the agility of the Clans is the issue, then consider that was the ENTIRE POINT of having Clan mechs with HUGE XL engines...

I knew this would be, if nothing else, the clan's massive redeeming quality...speed of engagement and ability to close a range gap.

They are all setup as DPS builds mostly now...someone suggested making PPCs a DoT earlier...I would not necessarily be opposed to that, but if it was to happen heat would have to come down on them...except the IS PPC, that one is already too cool running as it is...

I also proposed a HAG style Gauss rework that would make it 6 shells of 3 damage each for an overall damage buff, but a loss of pinpoint capability. I would be fine with that as well...

Nerfing the way a mech moves is not solving the inherent issue...when will any of you see that?

[Adiuvo]

Lunatech, on 23 June 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

If their target is moving in a straight line and not twisting.

At that range a 5 degree rotation of the torso is the difference between a side torso and an arm or CT.

The statement assumes equal skill on both parts. A player with the skill to hit a ST consistently at 800m is going to instinctively twist to protect that ST once it gets hit.

Nope.

http://www.twitch.tv/heimdelight
http://www.twitch.tv/jagerxii
http://www.twitch.tv/kaffeangst
http://www.twitch.tv..._twinkyoverlord

Even with equal skill, still nope.

http://www.twitch.tv...light/c/4434613
http://www.twitch.tv...ing/b/537065740 (match starts 3 minutes in)

Edited by Adiuvo, 23 June 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[Gyrok]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I don't understand. Clan mechs bring more armor and firepower at a greater speed then IS hands down. How can you guys say they win meta? If I peek at a distance, I get a face full of lasers. As soon as I go into cover I get LRMs. If I attack one on one from close range I get a barrage of EVERYTHING. The only way to play this is to play a tactically perfect game. Its frustrating.

I mean the things can carry 12 (or was it even 14) MLAS at 100 KPH. No IS can do that.

I kill clan mechs too, in fact I got the 8 kill in a round award just recently with my cheese Jager, but what I'm saying is no matter what I do I'm outclassed. I have to play a tactically perfect game while the clan mech sits at 800m just chosing whether he should shoot that ppc, the mlas or the LRM, fondling his balls and just waiting for me to die. Which is completely irellevant because everything outranges everything on the IS side. Their MLas have almost the same range as my LLas for gods sake.

The only thing that works against clans is my god damn AC40 Jaeger which I built as a joke. Now I'm forced to use it for real and its one boring mech to play.

CUSTOMIZATION.

You can put loadouts on a cataphract that the TW would only be able to dream of...

Want to run AC20/LBX10 + 4 MLs on a CTF 3D with a JJ and STD engine? Buy a STD 260 and have at it...

Want to run that on a TW...? Well, sorry, you can only get the AC20 into one of the arms, and by the time you put in the 2 cannons plus lasers...you cannot carry any ammo, much less the 6 tons of ammo you get on the CTF that weighs 5 tons less...and you do not even have JJs on the TW yet.

Want to run dual AC20? Grab a Jaeger and knock yourself out with a XL255 and 7-8T of ammo.

Want to run that on a TW? Sorry...you cannot fit more than 1 by slot limitations alone...if we are going by tonnage, you cannot fit a second one at all unless you can get them to fire with no ammo. You know something I do not?

Want to run 4 AC2 or 4 AC5? Grab a CTF 4X with XL255 and knock yourself out...

Want it on a TW? Sorry...not enough hardpoints

Want 3 UAC5s? Grab a muromets and take a XL280 + 10T ammo + 3 MLs

Want it on a TW? Sorry, you can get them on there...you can even get enough ammo with 8.5-9T ammo, want lasers for when you run out of ammo? Sorry...no tonnage left...

Want to run 2 AC10s + PPC? Great, 3D with XL300 + 2JJs and 5T ammo...ALL DAY!

Want it on TW? Sorry, you can fit the weapons, no ammo and no JJs...

Need I go on, or have I sufficiently established why the CTF and JM6 are NOT inferior to the TW yet...?

[Roland]

Lots of those builds are terrible though. Being able to mount poor loadouts isn't really a strength.

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Want 3 UAC5s? Grab a muromets and take a XL280 + 10T ammo + 3 MLs

Want it on a TW? Sorry, you can get them on there...you can even get enough ammo with 8.5-9T ammo, want lasers for when you run out of ammo? Sorry...no tonnage left...

I have one of these, actually. While the ammo holds out, it's fantastic - but I could only stuff in 4.5t ammo for three C-UAC/5, and my only backup armament is four C-ERSL. No jump jets.

The Murdermets isn't exactly shivering in fear over the loss of its niche, let me tell you.

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

At close range they're not even. SRMs are better. Whether or not SRMs need to be 'more better' is the right question.

Conquest had nothing to do with that. The points that were capped were done so with the bigs still in the typical positions they would be in on any mode. What Caustic allowed was for them to push over as one mass, which nearly overwhelmed us. Brawlers are strong in a variety of maps, such as River City, HPG, Forest Colony, etc.. Caustic, if anything, is one of the weaker brawling maps.

I never said aiming doesn't take much skill, only that's it's less of a part of skill than positioning. I don't believe aiming in MWO is as easy as you are trying to make it seem when, even in my high Elo matches, I see people spreading damage around, missing shots, and failing to put down hurt components.

Some kind of heat penalty system would be nice but I doubt it's going to be put in any time soon. They have more important mechanics to deal with.

SRMs are only superior once you get within a PPC's minimum range. At 2/3rds their max, they already start to spread damage everywhere. They run hot and are also subject to ghost heat. Because of their disadvantages they need to be superior to jumpshot loadouts sub-270m. Brawler loadouts take too much damage closing to their optimal range to be a true counter in the current setup.

I also forgot to point out that game was tonnage restricted. Which was probably one of the bigger influences in making a mixed deck viable.

Yes, they were able to push over en masse without first being exposed to a crippling number of focused alpha strikes. Caustic gives brawlers a chance to get into range. That's my point.

I'm also not asking only for heat penalties. I'm saying the heat system is fundamentally flawed. We have an overly complex mess that has led to really simplistic gameplay and loadout options. It'd be better to radically overhaul the whole thing, simplify it to a low cap, high dissipation system. And balance around that, rather than the kludgy mess of ghost heat.

30 points of heat, full 2.0 dissipation double heat sinks. A simple, elegant system would lead to more diverse loadouts and complex gameplay.

As far as aiming: well, then I guess my aim isn't as bad as I thought. It's still really easy in this game.b Because we have perfect convergence, apart from having to account for parabolic ballistic drop on AC10s and 20s, you know where every shot you fire in an alpha is going to go, and that they're all going to pretty much hit the same spot you aimed for.

If players have to pull the trigger more often, it will spread damage more, and increase TTK.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[xMintaka]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Nope.

http://www.twitch.tv/heimdelight
http://www.twitch.tv/jagerxii
http://www.twitch.tv/kaffeangst
http://www.twitch.tv..._twinkyoverlord

Even with equal skill, still nope.

http://www.twitch.tv...light/c/4434613
http://www.twitch.tv...ing/b/537065740 (match starts 3 minutes in)

Fair enough.

This just reinforces my point that PPC's > ERPPCs' of any sort, though. The clans are limited to ERPPC's, which makes them inherently inferior in a jump sniping role, especially when employed as they are in the games you linked to.

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

So because of an abusive MEta, Light and Medium Mechs should not be able to fire, while jumping, on the move? Way to screw my mediums even further.

Were you drinking heavily when you read my post?
You jump and fire, it shouldn't hit anywhere near what you were aiming at.
In any case, you fire multiple weapons you shouldn't expect all of them to nail the same spot you aim for repeatedly.
How does this screw lights and mediums? It INCREASES their survival because their STs, and CTs won't get blown out in 2 alphas anymore. And god forbid we make mediums other than the Sh*thawk viable again by nerfing JJ and pinpoint convergence.

I'd take "can't fire at all" for that in a heart beat with my Centurions, and Jenners, survivability instead of leaving them home and taking at lightest a Dragon into battle.

The meta is Screwed, and yes there's going to be hits. But think about it this way, the necessity of jumping in a med or light just to survive that extra 5 seconds isn't going to be necessary in the first place.

By the way you CAN Fire on the Ascent with JJs right now. The JJ Shake actually got a serious Nerf to such a point that after a while, you can still adjust for the shake and fire as you rise. Shooting while falling presently is just mind numbingly easier.

By all rights you shouldn't hit a god damn thing firing while flying in this game. These mechs aren't fighter jets or Gunships.
I can still blow out a ST the size of a Dragons ST on ascent after four shots of tequila when I was a practiced jump sniper. Anyone saying that it takes "skill" to Jump snipe is kidding themselves, especially with the current nerfed state of Ascending JJ Shake. You won't hit dead on for what you're aiming for on Ascent presently, but once you get used to the shake, you can pretty reliably hit one of three torsos. And that's just stupid.

Even if Jump Sniping were not so ridiculously rewarding for the low effort put into it, this being the dominant meta needs to change simply to keep the gameplay fresh. DOTA changes heroes etc constantly for a reason. Starcraft retweaks units from time to time, so people uses them in different ways.

Otherwise you end up being Forza, where the meta there to break into the top 250 (out of 250,000 to 400,000 players depending on the class you want to be a Hero in) on any given track, consists of Buy Lotus Exige, Mod and dial in suspension to taste, throw down laptimes, Win. There's a reason most people move on very quickly from Forza that are comp players.

Edited by Mavairo, 23 June 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

30 points of heat, full 2.0 dissipation double heat sinks. A simple, elegant system would lead to more diverse loadouts and complex gameplay.

Well, if you keep the dissipation at 2.0 you'll get a VERY slow game.

Currently with 15 DHS you get (10*0.2)+(5*0.14)=2.7 H/s. Add in your elite efficiencies and get a 15% bonus: 3.105 H/s. More than true 2.0 dissipation.

Honestly, since weapons fire 3 times as fast as TT, you'd need 6.0 heatsinks to match TT efficiency for heat generated to heat dissipated, but that wouldn't work very well either.

Whole heat system is a tad borked.

[Koniks]

Mcgral18, on 23 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Well, if you keep the dissipation at 2.0 you'll get a VERY slow game.

Currently with 15 DHS you get (10*0.2)+(5*0.14)=2.7 H/s. Add in your elite efficiencies and get a 15% bonus: 3.105 H/s. More than true 2.0 dissipation.

Honestly, since weapons fire 3 times as fast as TT, you'd need 6.0 heatsinks to match TT efficiency for heat generated to heat dissipated, but that wouldn't work very well either.

Whole heat system is a tad borked.

You can adjust, damage, range, heat, and cooldown times as needed. But it's easier to do that than constantly figuring out what weapons need to be linked in the current system with heat sinks that alter the cap. Or we can set a slightly higher cap.

But the point is that there should be a universal cap that applies to all mechs regardless of how many heat sinks they bring. How many heat sinks you bring should affect how quickly you dissipiate heat, not how much you can generate before shutdown.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 01:08 PM.