399 replies to this topic

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Davers, on 08 January 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

For brawling to flourish it requires either 1. all long range weapons to be inaccurate or low damage, or 2. brawling weapons to be super powerful to the point that one 'brawling alpha' is 2-3x more effective than a 'sniper alpha'.

I think we can both agree that its not just the thunderbolt but also the maps. Regardless the ppc is a very very dangerous weapon system to buff and the dev simply went gungho with the thunderbolt. They really seem to not understand the concept of incremental change.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Podex, on 08 January 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

Just because a mech does something better than something else does not make it OP. You have to weigh strengths AND weaknesses. A locust can eat a 9S for lunch, do does that make the locust even more OP than the 9S?

Ug, again, its all about the tonnage restrictions in CW and the map design. My direwolf with AC20s will eat a thunderbolt for lunch. That has nothing to do with the discussion that the present Tbolt with the coupled maps make advances and brawling all but impossible. Again, the PPC is a very very dangerous weapon system to buff and the devs chose to go all out with it for the Tbolt, bad move in my opinion.

Necromonger Commander, on 08 January 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Wow, you're really smart. Talking about the dynamics of balance is definitely crying. Its not like I don't use IS mechs too.

CBO, wow, I just realized! That was a joke! You're really really really funny.

God, I wish they had an age restriction on these forums.

BTW, your continual trolling in regards to legitimate posts can lead to banning. All you seem to ever post to threads discussing balance is troll comments; I'd be a bit careful if I were you. :-P

Edited by John Wolf, 10 January 2015 - 11:42 AM.
Moderated Quote

[Davers]

Blueduck, on 08 January 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

I think we can both agree that its not just the thunderbolt but also the maps. Regardless the ppc is a very very dangerous weapon system to buff and the dev simply went gungho with the thunderbolt. They really seem to not understand the concept of incremental change.

Honestly, I do have one. But since it is still at Basic, I find it to be a very hot mech that easily overheats. "But Davers, you have had those mechs for over a year! Why don't you have it Mastered?" Good question. It's because I found Tbolts to be so terrible that I couldn't even play them long enough to finish Basics on them. And I did play through Awesomes. The T-bolt is a terrible mech with good perks. Remove the perks and the mech is put back on the shelf. Will PGI reduce it's quirks? Probably. But I honestly think the problem is that the Clans are facing the comp units rather than being on the same side as them. That build has been around a while, and didn't take a genius to unlock it's potential. But it was never an issue until the major units redistributed themselves.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Davers, on 08 January 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Honestly, I do have one. But since it is still at Basic, I find it to be a very hot mech that easily overheats. "But Davers, you have had those mechs for over a year! Why don't you have it Mastered?" Good question. It's because I found Tbolts to be so terrible that I couldn't even play them long enough to finish Basics on them. And I did play through Awesomes. The T-bolt is a terrible mech with good perks. Remove the perks and the mech is put back on the shelf. Will PGI reduce it's quirks? Probably. But I honestly think the problem is that the Clans are facing the comp units rather than being on the same side as them. That build has been around a while, and didn't take a genius to unlock it's potential. But it was never an issue until the major units redistributed themselves.

Haha, very true. Don't get me wrong, I love the Tbolt. He is one of my all time favorite IS mechs. I hope they keep him good still but make him a bit more what he should be, a meaty all around brawler that can take a huge beating before going under. I still have my miniature thunderbolt of the original design.

Edited by Blueduck, 08 January 2015 - 05:12 PM.

[Davers]

Blueduck, on 08 January 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

Haha, very true. Don't get me wrong, I love the Tbolt. He is one of my all time favorite IS mechs. I hope they keep him good still but make him a bit more what he should be, a meaty all around brawler that can take a huge beating before going under.

Brawling is dead. You could give the Tbolt more armour than an Atlas and it still won't make it viable. Range is EVERYTHING and the best brawler is still a tier 4 mech in the current environment. No one is complaining about the 7 MPL Thud after all.

Brawling only exists when you can't kill an opponent at range.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Davers, on 08 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

Brawling is dead. You could give the Tbolt more armour than an Atlas and it still won't make it viable. Range is EVERYTHING and the best brawler is still a tier 4 mech in the current environment. No one is complaining about the 7 MPL Thud after all.

Brawling only exists when you can't kill an opponent at range.

I don't know if I'd call it dead. Before the mass ppc spam we had a couple of weeks there in community warfare where we busted the gate down and went all out. You'd have thunderwubs charging and out, twolfs in hot pursuit, ecm kit foxes covering the dires who were midrange brawling, and lets not forget the fierce some ac20 king crab that all of a sudden barrels in at close range.

[Davers]

Blueduck, on 08 January 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

I don't know if I'd call it dead. Before the mass ppc spam we had a couple of weeks there in community warfare where we busted the gate down and went all out. You'd have thunderwubs charging and out, twolfs in hot pursuit, ecm kit foxes covering the dires who were midrange brawling, and lets not forget the fierce some ac20 king crab that all of a sudden barrels in at close range.

Well brawling in MWO seems to take place at 270m (which I call knife fighting; to ME brawling is within PPC range, but I will be using the community's guidelines as SRMs are considered brawling weapons around here) and your Wubs, especially your Large Wubs are more that double that range.

[Grendel408]

Blueduck, on 08 January 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

We're very sorry for saying anything about your mech. No one will suggest or talk about anything from now on. We very much appreciate you setting us all straight. Everyone should just accept the balance the way it is an never look or question anything. Even a weapon system that has broken the game time and time again when buffed disproportionality.

I really enjoyed the curse words you threw in their too; it really helped solidify you argument that we should just @$#@ up and let you win.

Granted most clan players also play IS and want both sides to have a fair time that includes brawling. From now on though we will be more considerate to your feelings and just be quiet so you can enjoy the troll mech that according to you didn't even know you had in your arsenal until you were led by the hand to show what 36 ppcs firing in force could do in CW.

Sorry again!

Don't apologize to me... I don't need it.

1... don't twist what I said out of context... I said stop crying, not stfu.

2. I never said not to discuss the "issue" with the TDR, but to put it where suggestions go on the forums.

3. I'll enjoy my "troll mech that according to you didn't even know you had in your arsenal until you were led by the hand... blah blah blah" because I paid attention to the quirks and took advantage of them. Who wouldn't?

4. I like my curse words and saved the Mods from editing my post for me.

5... I, along with everyone want a balanced game... some parts of this game will always have an advantage over the other, learn to counter it.

Thunderbolt TDR-9S... RIGHT TORSO... take it out and problem solved.

So... take your Clan Mech into the field, find a Thunderbutt and kill it... not hard. IS vs Clan tech... always gonna be different, quirks here, perks there... put out a thread in the Suggestion forum instead if you think things need to be adjusted. Not that hard.

Edited by Grendel408, 08 January 2015 - 05:43 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Grendel408, on 08 January 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

Don't apologize to me... I don't need it.

1... don't twist what I said out of context... I said stop crying, not stfu.

2. I never said not to discuss the "issue" with the TDR, but to put it where suggestions go on the forums.

3. I'll enjoy my "troll mech that according to you didn't even know you had in your arsenal until you were led by the hand... blah blah blah" because I paid attention to the quirks and took advantage of them. Who wouldn't?

4. I like my curse words and saved the Mods from editing my post for me.

5... I, along with everyone want a balanced game... some parts of this game will always have an advantage over the other, learn to counter it.

Thunderbolt TDR-9S... RIGHT TORSO... take it out and problem solved.

So... take your Clan Mech into the field, find a Thunderbutt and kill it... not hard. IS vs Clan tech... always gonna be different, quirks here, perks there... put out a thread in the Suggestion forum instead if you think things need to be adjusted. Not that hard.

:-/ There is nothing to take out of context as your post is another non-constructive post telling people to be quiet that want to have a legitimate debate. Many of us who play both sides would be the first to argue the IS needs a range boost from perks, but it should be with lasers not the ppc.

It is an issue with the mass ppc fire on the large open maps. 2 thunderbolts are fine however everyone figured out what 8+ can do. Its called insta core, you do not get close to "kill the right torso" Especially with those nice armor perks.

The ppc is a very very bad weapon to buff like this. Everytime they have done this in the past it was always a disaster. Boost the lasers and give small bonuses to the ppc, not the other way around.

Its the pin point damage that is the problem.

Edited by Blueduck, 08 January 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Grendel408]

And Clanners running around with the SCR-TBR-WHK combo isn't abused? LOL! Throw some more logic my way dude.

What I see on the forums is Clans complaining about a small advantage that popped up on the IS end of things... all the while Clans have significant advantages over IS Mechs... however there are trade-offs like Mech lab configuration restrictions, higher heat, slightly longer burn time, more expensive equipment/weapons/Mechs... but you get more range, lighter weapons, targeting computers, durable XL engines, etc.

If anything... the Devs need to go back and look at everything from IS to Clan and sit down over the hot pot of coffee and rework the system. Will they? No... they'll make adjustments here and there, folks will ***** and complain (regardless, because some folks in general can't ever be happy... not saying you, or anyone here... just in general) and the Devs will continue their long process of tuning the game.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Grendel408, on 08 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

And Clanners running around with the SCR-TBR-WHK combo isn't abused? LOL! Throw some more logic my way dude.

What I see on the forums is Clans complaining about a small advantage that popped up on the IS end of things... all the while Clans have significant advantages over IS Mechs... however there are trade-offs like Mech lab configuration restrictions, higher heat, slightly longer burn time, more expensive equipment/weapons/Mechs... but you get more range, lighter weapons, targeting computers, durable XL engines, etc.

If anything... the Devs need to go back and look at everything from IS to Clan and sit down over the hot pot of coffee and rework the system. Will they? No... they'll make adjustments here and there, folks will ***** and complain (regardless, because some folks in general can't ever be happy... not saying you, or anyone here... just in general) and the Devs will continue their long process of tuning the game.

Warhawk combo, what are you even talking about? No one ever complains about the warhawk. The broken build combo is 3 stormcrows and the timberwolf. And where did I ever say this wasn't broken? I hate this stupid build as clan as much as IS players due as it allows uber broken rushes to the generators.

"What I see on the forums is Clans complaining about a small advantage that popped up on the IS end of things"

This is not a small advantage! If you have been playing for awhile you know what happens when the PPC gets a large buff. Do you not understand what happens when the PPC becomes the best long distance weapon system by far? Whever this happens it causes major problem because it becomes the best weapon system with everyone giving up lasers for them.

And yes, I do agree with you that the IS needs more buffs with the perks receiving a hard look for distance; however, this does not take away from the fact that the PPC breaks the game in its present state.

And stop associating me with "clanners" again, seem my phoenix star.

Edited by Blueduck, 08 January 2015 - 06:04 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

9S blunderbolt now available 35% off!

Grab yours now, so you can mock the clanners a bit extra.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Vassago Rain, on 08 January 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

9S blunderbolt now available 35% off!

Grab yours now, so you can mock the clanners a bit extra.

You know I saw this sale and the first thing I thought was the devs were trolling the clans. xD

[Vincent V. Kerensky]

Blueduck, on 08 January 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

You know I saw this sale and the first thing I thought was the devs were trolling the clans. xD

Undoubtedly they have read all the posts about the 9S. Got a feeling they are just rubbing it in before looking at ways to balance the problem.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Vincent V., on 08 January 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Undoubtedly they have read all the posts about the 9S. Got a feeling they are just rubbing it in before looking at ways to balance the problem.

You have to admit though, it would be really really funny if they actually did it on purpose.

[Nightshade24]

Grendel408, on 08 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

And Clanners running around with the SCR-TBR-WHK combo isn't abused? LOL! Throw some more logic my way dude.

What I see on the forums is Clans complaining about a small advantage that popped up on the IS end of things... all the while Clans have significant advantages over IS Mechs... however there are trade-offs like Mech lab configuration restrictions, higher heat, slightly longer burn time, more expensive equipment/weapons/Mechs... but you get more range, lighter weapons, targeting computers, durable XL engines, etc.

If anything... the Devs need to go back and look at everything from IS to Clan and sit down over the hot pot of coffee and rework the system. Will they? No... they'll make adjustments here and there, folks will ***** and complain (regardless, because some folks in general can't ever be happy... not saying you, or anyone here... just in general) and the Devs will continue their long process of tuning the game.

Warhawk = really?... really?

Can't you inner sphere make up your mind? because you make it sound like 1 of hte 3 clan assaults is OP as **** and the other 2 suck but like literally a couple pages back someone is complaining about the direwolf being the OP assault and now it's the warhawk?

Something tells me on page 17 someone will be complaining about the gargoyle being OP...


Timberwolf = it's not OP, it's just common because the summoner isn't that good either and the hellrbinger costs real money at the moment while timberwolf is out for c-bills. Look at the summoner... it's prime variant has an alpha of 35 damage while a firestarter does 32 in the 8 small pulse laser configeration... and that's for every 2 seconds for the firestarter.

The underpowered jumpjets hardwired and the lack of endo strikes the summoner bad.

To be honest you can do the exact same build as a timberwolf in a grasshopper and better... I know that mech isn't out yet but it can't have a worse hitbox then the timberwolf and has more energy hardpoints + quirks...

Stormcrow = Really? A cicada could do the same build and go like 50% faster then some of the proclaimed "Meta" builds the crow uses. I think the mediums in general are a mash pit of powerhouses. There is a reason why the medium mech circuit was popular in solaris and was the main work force in the IS durring the clan invasion.

Stormcrow makes more heat firing 3 medium lasers then the thunderbolt makes firing 1 er ppc... anyway.

And more durable XL engines doesn't mean much when you can't change it out for others or it prevents you from using weapons.

For eg not a single clan mech can mount a LBX 20 in the side torso. Or many many other limitations...

Timberwolf has an XL 375... we all know if it was a XL 300 you would really start complaining about the clans.

It's like a curse and a gift. Good things occur but bad things also happen.


I find it funny how there was not much whine about the clans up until CW...

[Nightshade24]

Vassago Rain, on 08 January 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

9S blunderbolt now available 35% off!

Grab yours now, so you can mock the clanners a bit extra.

This feels like the devs did it in purpose.

However I actually think that it is just to test out how OP that thing is really... if everyone swarms to it during the sale and spams it it means more statistical data about the mech AND see how much get sold.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Nightshade24, on 08 January 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

This feels like the devs did it in purpose.

However I actually think that it is just to test out how OP that thing is really... if everyone swarms to it during the sale and spams it it means more statistical data about the mech AND see how much get sold.

Oh come on, regardless it is really really funny.

[N0MAD]

I wonder how much imput the Secret Squirrels had when selecting mech quirks..
Now when selecting a mech to do say a PPC quirk especially with CW coming on and knowing somewhat what the maps would be like and knowing range would be an advantage what chassis would i chose to make a sniper, the Iconic IS PPC mech the Awsome?, no dont be silly as its weight allows only 2 available in a drop deck with only 80 ton left for the other 2, low mounted arms and a torso the size of Kim Ks rear.
Ideally you need something thats in the 60-65 ton range, that way you get 3 in a deck, obviously with jump sniping nerfed you need something with high weapons mounts, a definite advantage to peekaboo, needs protection to its weapon system, shield arms, two is better than one so no weaps in arms cause that 50% damage reduction from both shields ( dead arms) is well very handy to peekaboo fire/twist/reverse. So the result was the TDR, now having selected the ideal chassis, should we employ moderation, say a 15%-20% buff to PPCs, no screw that, 50% heat reduction, BUT THATS NOT ALL, lets give it a really hefty projectile speed increase, well just because, well screw it why not just because you can spam PPCs non stop, what good is it if you dont give the shooter an aiming advantage.
I know, i know this is all BS and has no valid points at all, sorry.
Carry on.

[Vassago Rain]

N0MAD, on 08 January 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

I wonder how much imput the Secret Squirrels had when selecting mech quirks..
Now when selecting a mech to do say a PPC quirk especially with CW coming on and knowing somewhat what the maps would be like and knowing range would be an advantage what chassis would i chose to make a sniper, the Iconic IS PPC mech the Awsome?, no dont be silly as its weight allows only 2 available in a drop deck with only 80 ton left for the other 2, low mounted arms and a torso the size of Kim Ks rear.
Ideally you need something thats in the 60-65 ton range, that way you get 3 in a deck, obviously with jump sniping nerfed you need something with high weapons mounts, a definite advantage to peekaboo, needs protection to its weapon system, shield arms, two is better than one so no weaps in arms cause that 50% damage reduction from both shields ( dead arms) is well very handy to peekaboo fire/twist/reverse. So the result was the TDR, now having selected the ideal chassis, should we employ moderation, say a 15%-20% buff to PPCs, no screw that, 50% heat reduction, BUT THATS NOT ALL, lets give it a really hefty projectile speed increase, well just because, well screw it why not just because you can spam PPCs non stop, what good is it if you dont give the shooter an aiming advantage.
I know, i know this is all BS and has no valid points at all, sorry.
Carry on.

It had something like 20% ER PPC bonuses since quirks were invented, but that obviously didn't amount to much. Same with the AC5s on the wolverine, the pulse wolverine, one dragon had UAC5s (now AC5s), and so on.

Only the blunder is a problem, apparently. In the real world, most of my guys prefer to bring AC5 boating dragons, wolverines, or LBX centurions, because those are much better at piling on the damage than the 9S. 9S isn't so great when you get banzai charged.

So what ends up happening is, we have some of each, and some personal mechs. Kinda like, you know, you'd expect, but the clan babbies are still crying about the blunder.