158 replies to this topic

[Kurvi]

One big problem with prohibiting trials in CW is that the level-2 loyalty rewards are currently the only real free source of extra free mech bays. Since you cannot master more than one mech with the starting mechbays, you are essentially dooming newcomers to play CW with less than optimal mechs once they do make it in.

Heck, if someone happened to split their mech purchases between clan and IS, they might not be able to make a full drop at all (without selling).

To me this seems a bit too harsh.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

No, he's right. I'm a solo dropper with a good elited/moduled IS deck - Stalkers, Tbolts, Griffins, Blackjacks, Ravens. Been playing here for almost a year now. Your solutions to the CW problems discussed here ("extremely rudimentary checklist") don't address the actual problem.

What, praytell, is the problem then?

Because the issue I'm seeing is brand new players that don't even know how to play the game are going into the one game mode that doesn't have any checks in place to prevent good veteran players from absolutely trashing them.

Best way to prevent them from getting trashed? Bar them from that game mode until they've played enough to understand the game.

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

You want more players in CW? You have to quit stomping all over them. The problem is less about noobs and more about bratty vets that need to club seals to boost their self-esteem. Sure, they will *say* they aren't enjoying the stomp... as they race each other to spawncamp the new players 3rd and 4th mechs.

Nice passive-aggressive jab. If we enjoyed it, a lot of us wouldn't be pushing to get limitations in place to stop this from happening.

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

The solution is to segregate the solo new player from the premades. When the new player is ready, he can join faction comms or a unit and get immersed in holding planets, loyalty rewards etc. Until then, let him play against other new solo players - else you will be occupying barren terrain as CW reverts to being a Ghost Town again.

But your solution, does it include solo old players? Because I solo CW more than I group CW or Solo Quick Play.

Having a training planet where it also acts as a CW tutorial would be great. But that's not going to happen in a handful of weeks.

CW needs a stopgap measure RIGHT NOW.

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

I saw a bunch of IS newbies go up against a comp team last week. I don't think I will see half of them in CW again. You guys are killing off the very playerbase that would have saved CW.

And there it is.

Fen, if you're hear to present ideas to improve the CW experience, do so.

If you're hear to use my thread as a soapbox for espousing your anti-comp rhetoric then please exit stage left.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Kurvi, on 18 December 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

One big problem with prohibiting trials in CW is that the level-2 loyalty rewards are currently the only real free source of extra free mech bays. Since you cannot master more than one mech with the starting mechbays, you are essentially dooming newcomers to play CW with less than optimal mechs once they do make it in.

Heck, if someone happened to split their mech purchases between clan and IS, they might not be able to make a full drop at all (without selling).

To me this seems a bit too harsh.

That's why I don't support trial mech limitations. Trial mechs themselves aren't limitations, as I use some of those same builds on my own mechs. It's just indicative of a new player that statistically doesn't know what they're doing, which is why I lean towards a "you can play CW after you've garnered enough experience through playing more quick play matches" approach.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 18 December 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[UberStuka]

I don't always yolo/solo but when I do its with unit less wolf pugz

Edited by UberStuka, 18 December 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

How about we balance large premade groups vs smaller premade groups first?

[Rattazustra]

The easiest fix to uber-n00bs in CW is: No trial mechs in CW. Ever. If you dont have 4 mechs you cannot play CW. Alternatively: X number trials max. Preferably x=1.

[Bluttrunken]

Lyoto Machida, on 14 December 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

It's hard to care when PGI doesn't.

With all the improvements coming to CW you're really of that opinion? Did you watch the Phase 3 teaser from the Steam launch party? My guess is you didn't.

[Brian Davion]

So, I'm pretty new to this game, just started with the steam launch. I've poked my toes into faction play from time to time now that I feel comfortable with the game and have some mechs mastered. I definatly think that people shouldn't be playing ranked their first game. the best solution, if it's even possiable, would be to unlock faction play once you got all the cadet acheivements. (it's not perfect but at least would keep the TOTAL newbies out)

that said new players in CW are a good thing, it means an intreast in it, I think the community would be better served trying to channel this intrest, get more players involved and learning, maybe orginize "newbie nights" where a certain planet is designated a "newbie PUG zone only" that sort of thing.

Honestly it's all well and good to say "ohh you should learn everything from quickplay" but it's not possiable. CW has differant maps and differant game modes, that do take some learning.

[Lupis Volk]

Brian Davion, on 19 December 2015 - 01:02 AM, said:

Honestly it's all well and good to say "ohh you should learn everything from quickplay" but it's not possiable. CW has differant maps and differant game modes, that do take some learning.

yeah that threw me off when i first played CW.

[Inkarnus]

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

You want more players in CW? You have to quit stomping all over them. The problem is less about noobs and more about bratty vets that need to club seals to boost their self-esteem. Sure, they will *say* they aren't enjoying the stomp... as they race each other to spawncamp the new players 3rd and 4th mechs.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 18 December 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

If we enjoyed it, a lot of us wouldn't be pushing to get limitations in place to stop this from happening.

My testimonial/expirience is that some people from units like 228 and  MS actually gave in even in the actual match to activly seal club
to the point where its not about PTFO (defend with seals) and all about farm. If you ask them to end it and kill the generator since it was over already in wave 2.

Especially the 228 were very snarky ala go to the echo camber post ****. Nobody cares gtfo attitude.
Well  surely they dont care. But showing  atleast some minor respect for the enemy team would have been
apperently impossible. There is a fine line between beeing a pugstomper and a good sport
most of the teams i see are not good sports. This will be reflected in the player retention and if
Steam players already notice its Pugstomping they will turn there backs pretty  fast on MWO.
Which from  my sample size do already alot.

At some point it will be impossible for MWO to get new players or even keep them entertained enough
with the way its atm going. But they  cater anyway to the Uberkerenskys and wales and guys that spent 2k on there game for bragging rights. These guys have all the right in the world to destroy a community even more one that already is about to die. just because of ego and spent money.

Instead of going ot of there way and obviously be nice to new players....

Edited by Inkarnus, 19 December 2015 - 04:10 AM.

[Brian Davion]

Lupis Volk, on 19 December 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

yeah that threw me off when i first played CW.

nyeah Luckly one of my first matches was a ghost drop. which gave me an oppertunity to learn, ask questions and understand the mechanics in a enviroment where we had all the time in the world

[PerfectDuck]

Inkarnus, on 19 December 2015 - 03:40 AM, said:

At some point it will be impossible for MWO to get new players or even keep them entertained enough
with the way its atm going. But they cater anyway to the Uberkerenskys and wales and guys that spent 2k on there game for bragging rights. They have all the right in the world to destroy a community even more
one that already is about to die. just because of ego and spent money.

Tinfoil hat? People who spent money on this game are not entitled to an easy victory and I really doubt 'they' are deliberately skewing it toward that end either. Been a long time since I've heard the cries of p2w and it's a little off the subject. Most of the people I know who have put a lot of money in this game are disappointed and clinging on to hope of eventual satisfaction.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 18 December 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Best way to prevent them from getting trashed? Bar them from that game mode until they've played enough to understand the game.

Nope. I've been playing for a year now. So by your definition, I understand the game. My pug drops still end in being stomped 80% of the time, my unit drops are the reverse. I already know your solution doesn't work - my pug vs pug drops are fun and challenging, my unit vs unit drops are fun and challenging. Its the pug vs unit drops that leave a bad taste in my mouth. I've already been playtesting your solution for a year now and I'm telling you it doesn't work.

Banning them from CW will just make them quit sooner. You guys act like new players need CW, when the reverse is true, you need them. And they aren't going to hang around for 6 months waiting on the CW Gods to deem them worthy.

The solution is to separate them from the organized comp teams. I don't understand why there is so much resistance to that idea. Do it now as a temporary measure, or it will happen later and become a permanent feature - where CW is so dead that you are facing the same 12 man teams over and over again. Its like you want to occupy Barren Terrain. Trust me, I've done that and it gets old real fast.

And why is banning them from CW any better? Makes more sense to segregate them into a separate CW venue so they can learn CW ...by playing CW. And without getting spawncamped by comp teams all the time. It would be over the same map and same planets, the matchmaker would just stop putting pre-mades against unaffiliated players.

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If you're hear to use my thread as a soapbox for espousing your anti-comp rhetoric then please exit stage left.

Huh? I'm on a comp team, so where is this coming from? Is this your pattern, to just make up lies about people?

I ask because you're the guy that falsely accused me of stalking Faith McCarron and harassing her on her blog, even though I've never posted there. You never apologized for or retracted that slime, and now it looks like you are back to making up more bs about me. Is that who you are?

People get arrested for stalking, these days. If I was going to publicly accuse someone of that, I would make sure I knew what I was talking about first. And if my info was wrong... damn. I'd make a public retraction and send the guy a private apology. That would show class.

So why such underhanded moves? Because it makes me wonder if your other points are made in good faith.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 20 December 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Fen Tetsudo, on 20 December 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Nope. I've been playing for a year now. So I understand the game. My pug drops still end in being stomped 80% of the time, my unit drops are the reverse. I already know your solution doesn't work - my pug vs pug drops are fun and challenging, my unit vs unit drops are fun and challenging. Its the pug vs unit drops that leave a bad taste in my mouth. I've already been playtesting your solution for a year now and I'm telling you it doesn't work.

Banning them from CW will just make them quit sooner. You guys act like new players need CW, when the reverse is true, you need them. And they aren't going to hang around for 6 months waiting on the CW Gods to deem them worthy.

The solution is to separate them from the organized comp teams. I don't understand why there is so much resistance to that idea.

Because it is completely antithetical to the intended purpose of the mode!

Your fix for Faction play is to make it completely not Faction Play at all. There would be no need for factions at all. No need for units. No need for a galaxy map. Just add the maps and mode to the quick play queues and call it a day.

Many of us want a deeper game and you want to just make more of the same shallow play we already have in Quick Play.

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Do it now as a temporary measure, or it will happen later and become a permanent feature - where CW is so dead that you are facing the same 12 man teams over and over again. Its like you want to occupy Barren Terrain. Trust me, I know that gets old real fast.

And why is banning them from CW any better? Makes more sense to segregate them into a separate CW venue so they can learn CW ...by playing CW. And without getting spawncamped by comp teams all the time. It would be over the same map and same planets, the matchmaker would just stop putting 12-mans against unaffiliated teams.

A separate map? How long before you find teams synch dropping in the solo CW? Are you going to ban any pilot with a unit tag from playing your nursery CW mode?

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Huh? I'm on a comp team, so where is this coming from? Is this your pattern, to just make up lies about people?
I ask because you're the guy that falsely accused me of stalking Faith McCarron and harassing her on her blog, even though I've never posted there. You never apologized for or retracted that slime, and now it looks like you are back to making up more bs about me. Is that who you are?

Why such underhanded moves? Because it makes me wonder if your other points are made in good faith.

[AssaultPig]

the issue has always been pub vs. preform

new players would be less of an issue in pug v pug because 1) games wouldn't be as stacked anyway and 2) the pugs would be much more likely to be evenly distributed

the fact that a pug team is already at a huge disadvantage vs. preform is exacerbated, not created, by the fact that there's 2-3 random newbies in every game

[MechWarrior3671771]

vandalhooch, on 20 December 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

Because it is completely antithetical to the intended purpose of the mode! Your fix for Faction play is to make it completely not Faction Play at all. There would be no need for factions at all. No need for units.

Not what I said. New players can play for factions, units can play for factions. Just not against each other.

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Many of us want a deeper game and you want to just make more of the same shallow play we already have in Quick Play.

Did you read what I wrote? You are arguing against points I never made. RIght now CW is on life support, and we are trying to find ways to keep the new Steam crowd from ditching it. The "deep game" part comes after we stop bleeding pilots. Do you really think new players are going to stick around for Scouting Mode, etc when they are still having their 2nd 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped in CounterAttack?

Quote

A separate map?

No, I said the same map. Please read more carefully. Same map, same planets, same factions. The only difference would be adding in a solo que so new players don't get matched against pre-mades. If they choose to join a unit then they drop with that unit in the pre-made que. They just can't go back into the CW solo que with unit tags.

Seems like an easy filter to program too - just call for unit/no unit tags. Of course, its the smaller buckets issue, but that's better than barring new players from CW completely.

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How long before you find teams synch dropping in the solo CW? Are you going to ban any pilot with a unit tag

No, although I thought synch dropping was already against the TOC. Point is, the people that need to club seals will find a way to exploit whatever solution PGI comes up with, but that doesn't mean the solution is wrong. We'll deal with the exploiters as the come. People hack the game too, that doesn't mean the devs should stop developing the game for the rest of us.

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playing your nursery CW mode

LOL. Nursery mode? That attitude is part of the problem. I would have thought the mass exodus of pilots from CW after all the "L2P noob!" nonsense would have taught us something.

BTW, some peeps are acting like there is this great comp scene these days that demands respect and Primacy at the expense of new players. It doesn't. The last MW league I came from (MWL) had over 100 competitive teams on 20 different ladder leagues, pilots playing 2-3 league matches PER NIGHT. This is not that. So lets stop treating the comp scene here as sacrosanct.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 20 December 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Fen Tetsudo, on 20 December 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

Not what I said. New players can play for factions, units can play for factions. Just not against each other.

Just because you are unable to see the implications of your suggestion does not mean everyone else is as blind.

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Did you read what I wrote?

Yes. Did you think about what what you wrote would actually mean in terms of the actual gameplay?

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You are arguing against points I never made. RIght now CW is on life support,

Yeah! Hyperbole is fun!

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and we are trying to find ways to keep the new Steam crowd from ditching it. The "deep game" part comes after we stop bleeding pilots. Do you really think new players are going to stick around for Scouting Mode, etc when they are still having their 2nd 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped in CounterAttack?

Do you really think getting rid of Faction Play will somehow save Faction Play?

Quote

No, I said the same map.

Congratulations. You've managed to come up with exactly the same idiotic idea that thousands of morons thought of before you! (See, I can be hyperbolic too.)

How exactly does a planet trade hands when one side never actually faces, let alone defeats, the other side? Davion attacks with a wave of solos. Kurita assembles their teams to defend. Teams can't fight solos. Davion takes the planet. Kurita pilots think this is completely fair and accepts this system because thousands of morons can't possibly be wrong.

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Please read more carefully. Same map, same planets, same factions.

Think more carefully. Map, planets and factions become irrelevant with separate queues.

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The only difference would be adding in a solo que so new players don't get matched against pre-mades.

We have that already. It's called Quick Play.

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If they choose to join a unit then they drop with that unit in the pre-made que. They just can't go back into the CW solo que with unit tags.

Great idea! Ban those players who most enjoy the Faction Play portion of the game from playing some aspect of Faction Play.

Idiotic ideas are idiotic. You are trying to incentivize solo play in the mode specifically designed for team play. Your solution is to get rid of team play. Just because you can't see the implications says more about your design skills than it does about the game mode.

Quote

Seems like an easy filter to program too - just call for unit/no unit tags. Of course, its the smaller buckets issue, but that's better than barring new players from CW completely.

I agree that barring new players from Faction Play is probably not a great solution. I think what people are arguing for is forcing players to spend more time learning the basics before engaging in Faction Play.

I would like to see some sort of mechanic that incentivizes players joining into a unit, even if it is just a small unit made up of a few new players. I remember the first time a weekend event forced me to group up with other players. Even without VOIP, dropping with the same pilots over and over again really upped my enjoyment of the game despite my noob pilot skills.

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No, although I thought synch dropping was already against the TOC.

That's my point exactly. Your split queue will incentivize players to break the TOC.

As hard as this is to beleive for the hard core solos, some players really do care about the map. They want to be invested in the larger story. They will do whatever they can to effect the map including dropping in your solo queue because you made it have an effect on the map.

The seal clubbing will continue only now your plan will require that Unit commander spend inordinate amounts of time re-admitting pilots to their unit after they leave the unit to drop in the solo Faction Play queue. Sounds like a great plan!

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Point is, the people that need to club seals will find a way to exploit whatever solution PGI comes up with,

Get bent you salty trash.

Calling players who care about the map "seal clubbers" is just Radagast level hogwash.

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but that doesn't mean the solution is wrong.

The problem that you don't seem capable of grasping is that your idea isn't a solution at all.

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We'll deal with the exploiters as the come. People hack the game too, that doesn't mean the devs should stop developing the game for the rest of us.

They already did. It's called Quick Play.

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LOL. Nursery mode? That attitude is part of the problem.

Seal clubbers? That attitude is the entire problem with current version of Faction Play.

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I would have thought the mass exodus of pilots from CW after all the "L2P noob!" nonsense would have taught us something.

Now you claim to know why so many pilots stopped dropping in Faction Play? Arrogance much?

I know why many players in my unit stopped playing CW and it has little to do with seal clubbing.

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BTW, some peeps are acting like there is this great comp scene these days that demands respect and Primacy at the expense of new players. It doesn't. The last MW league I came from (MWL) had over 100 competitive teams on 20 different ladder leagues, pilots playing 2-3 league matches PER NIGHT. This is not that. So lets stop treating the comp scene here as sacrosanct.

I agree that Faction Play should not be confused with league play.

You just seem incapable of grasping the idea that there is a third option. Players who want to play in the Battletech universe and not just stomp around in shooty robots. We want battles for planets to pit factions against factions. That is a deeper level of immersion than "Solos get in this line and teams get in this line." A split queue introduces a level of artifice that destroys the immersion that Faction Play is supposed to create.

[MechWarrior3671771]

{quote]

vandalhooch, on 20 December 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Do you really think getting rid of Faction Play will somehow save Faction Play?

But we wouldn't be getting rid of faction play

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How exactly does a planet trade hands when one side never actually faces, let alone defeats, the other side? Davion attacks with a wave of solos. Kurita assembles their teams to defend. Teams can't fight solos.

We already have that, its why there are ghost drops. Teams would continue to fight teams as they have always done. If you find there isn't enough variety of teams to play against, encourage people to recruit more players and found more teams.

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Map, planets and factions become irrelevant with separate queues.

No, they would not. Not any more than they are now. That planet your team stole from the pug noobs, are you really counting that as a win? You might as well be playing against an AI, since the dropship is getting more kills than the pugs.

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You are trying to incentivize solo play in the mode specifically designed for team play. Your solution is to get rid of team play.

No, I am trying to incentivize solo play so there will eventually be more team play.

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I would like to see some sort of mechanic that incentivizes players joining into a unit, even if it is just a small unit made up of a few new players. I remember the first time a weekend event forced me to group up with other players. Even without VOIP, dropping with the same pilots over and over again really upped my enjoyment of the game despite my noob pilot skills.

I agree. But as I have said upthread, I've already been doing exactly that for a year now - the results are that pug VS pug is fun, pre-made VS pre-made is fun, pug VS pre-made has not been fun (on either side).

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Your split queue will incentivize players to break the TOC.

So report and ban them.

"We can't have nice things because people will cheat" is not a valid excuse for not having nice things.

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A split queue introduces a level of artifice that destroys the immersion that Faction Play is supposed to create.

Somewhat, but immersion is worthless if your player pop declines while wait times increase. Who wants to wait 30 mins just to have their 2nd 3rd and 4th mech spawncamped?

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 20 December 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

No, he's right. I'm a solo dropper with a good elited/moduled IS deck - Stalkers, Tbolts, Griffins, Blackjacks, Ravens. Been playing here for almost a year now. Your solutions to the CW problems discussed here ("extremely rudimentary checklist") don't address the actual problem.

You want more players in CW? You have to quit stomping all over them. The problem is less about noobs and more about bratty vets that need to club seals to boost their self-esteem. Sure, they will *say* they aren't enjoying the stomp... as they race each other to spawncamp the new players 3rd and 4th mechs.

The solution is to segregate the solo new player from the premades. When the new player is ready, he can join faction comms or a unit and get immersed in holding planets, loyalty rewards etc. Until then, let him play against other new solo players - else you will be occupying barren terrain as CW reverts to being a Ghost Town again.

I saw a bunch of IS newbies go up against a comp team last week. I don't think I will see half of them in CW again. You guys are killing off the very playerbase that would have saved CW.

Everytime matchmaking is suggested for MWO, some people start screaming that there should be no matchmaking because they want to club seals. Except they don't say "club seals", they make up reasons like "its war" "stop whining" "learn2play" "join a unit" "use teamspeak", "its your fault for not dropping with a elite 12 man", etc....

I saw it happen all the way from closed beta till now. I have never seen a community so incredibly focused on newbie bashing, to the point where units were avoiding the group queue to sync drop in the solo queue. And when steam came out, some people even bragged about making alt accounts to farm newbies.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 20 December 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

Us Pugs can only learn CW by playing CW and by Playing i don't mean being trapped in spawn by the second wave. It's funny how people make out Pugs to be the issue but in fact it's a two way street. Both Pugs and Pre-mades are the problem here.

Pugs need to learn CW but with the current environment that's neigh impossible. you either have to pray that you get into a match with a smaller pre-made group on your team who's good and the enemy team are either pugs or small pre-made groups. The attitude "L2P" or "git gud" from the "seal Clubbers" doesn't help. you can't learn or get better when your getting clubbed. If anything it'll teach you that either X unit are a bunch of killjoys who enjoy ruining the game mode or that the Game mode is unbalanced and isn't fun. Is that what people want?

CW needs pugs but pugs don't need CW. Pugs=new players. Learned new players=potential unit members/new units. New Units=more people in CW.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 20 December 2015 - 03:24 PM.