551 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Kjudoon, on 27 December 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

If lrms were so easy and potent they would be the meta becauwe the meta is all about easy mode efficency.

But they arent because it isnt easy mode.

This is a textbook example of a circular argument, or "begging the question".

The "meta" is about killing efficiency. LRMs are not efficient killing weapons until the target is cored. However, LRMs ARE very easy to use to get a lot of damage and assists. (even at higher levels) When people say LRMs are easy, this is what they are talking about.

[Kjudoon]

Hotthedd, on 28 December 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

This is a textbook example of a circular argument, or "begging the question".

The "meta" is about killing efficiency. LRMs are not efficient killing weapons until the target is cored. However, LRMs ARE very easy to use to get a lot of damage and assists. (even at higher levels) When people say LRMs are easy, this is what they are talking about.

Then please answer me this, what is it that makes them so inefficient, and one solution could put them in alignment with all other weapons pretty much instantly without buffing them?

You see, we also have a false premise at work here pretending to be an accurate evaluation of LRMs.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 December 2015 - 05:44 AM.

[codynyc]

Heres thinking outside the box... Give up a missile hardpoint and equip narc... Gasp.... Dare i say... I agree btw get your own locks... As someone that plays a lrmers narc your own targets. Tag gives u away too much it will get you killed.

[Kjudoon]

codynyc, on 28 December 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Heres thinking outside the box... Give up a missile hardpoint and equip narc... Gasp.... Dare i say... I agree btw get your own locks... As someone that plays a lrmers narc your own targets. Tag gives u away too much it will get you killed.

Lose the broken AMS (or make it personal use only) and it would be worth it when I only have 2-4 hardpoints. Otherwise, volleys under certain levels keep you from doing anything at all. tag is 1 ton, Viable NARC is 5 tons. NARC works best on mechs OTHER than the boat, but can be good on LRMishers if they have at least 3 points to play with (which narrows the pool down dramatically. Otherwise, they are just not worth it.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 December 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

Asking other players to hold locks is the height of stupidity....

As team players do you not think we want to do this ?

There's only 1 major problem. THE OTHER TEAM IS SHOOTING AT US. Most of us refuse to sit there and soak up more damage than you could inflict with you LRM salvo.

So stop asking and realize that there's a reason we can't hold locks.

PS. BE SMART AND EQUIPE YOUR MECHS WITH SOME SECONDARY WEAPONS TO PROTECT YOURSELF / HELP OUT IN THE BRAWL...

Edited by ZippySpeedMonkey, 28 December 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Again, show the post that demands you endanger yourself by holding locks. I think the attitude has been 'for the love of pete JUST PRESS R!!!" and quit being selfish.

[Lykaon]

ColdPsyker1, on 26 December 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

Getting your own locks is usually a sign of a good LRM boat

Asking others to get locks for you usually implies the user is a bad LRM boat; so you will find most people unsympathetic

Except for,and you have all seen this, Players who NEVER lock anything even targets they are currently looking right at and engaging.

The following scenario happens with alarming frequency.

A player moves into a bad spot and ends up facing off against an enemy or two that they can not handle alone. They do have assistance available to even up or even tip the scales in their favor but...they never lock targets so they get destroyed when,if they had only locked a target their team would have not lost a mech and the enemy team would have taken the losses.

The failing in the pattern of thinking is that YOU are getting locks for THEM.

Like you are being forced to perform some sort of charity or offer handouts to lazy LRM boats.

When the reality of the situation is YOU should be getting locks for YOUR TEAM.

Providing target data for the team is a MUST and not providing locks is day one noob in the nutshell. Watching players splash damage all over a target that I know has a bright orange internal structure on the right torso is frustrating. If they only lock the target and take off that right side they would be dealing with a mech with half it's weapons. But no pressing a single key to get a target lock is way to distracting when they could instead spray ammo all over the place.


LRMs are a weapon system that requires some team support.

The other day in a CW match the enemy Clan team had a strategy to negate the range advantage that many Inner Sphere quirked mechs have now. By using fast movers with NARCs and having several MadDog LRM carriers they kept our mechs pinned in deep cover and stalled our advance. In the end this strategy paid off because we ran out of time on the clock with Omega Gen still sitting with a third of it's health.

If you have ever seen well coordinated and team supported LRM use you would not balk at their use or at anyone requesting team support.

Edited by Lykaon, 28 December 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

I hit R because I want to win the match for extra c-bills and my score goes up quite a bit if enemies are softened up with missiles before I shoot their internals....

[Hotthedd]

Kjudoon, on 28 December 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

Then please answer me this, what is it that makes them so inefficient, and one solution could put them in alignment with all other weapons pretty much instantly without buffing them?

You see, we also have a false premise at work here pretending to be an accurate evaluation of LRMs.

They are inefficient at killing because they spread their damage.
There does not need to be a "solution" to this necessary mechanic, as they are capable of indirect, computer lock-on damage. It is the trade-off.

[Kjudoon]

Hotthedd, on 28 December 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

They are inefficient at killing because they spread their damage.
There does not need to be a "solution" to this necessary mechanic, as they are capable of indirect, computer lock-on damage. It is the trade-off.

And yet, the problem with the game's bad TTK and garbage laser/ballisti-vomit alphastrike is convergence. Something missiles do NOT have. So take it away from all weapons. Problem solved on many levels. Conflict of interest ended.

[Hotthedd]

Kjudoon, on 28 December 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

And yet, the problem with the game's bad TTK and garbage laser/ballisti-vomit alphastrike is convergence. Something missiles do NOT have. So take it away from all weapons. Problem solved on many levels. Conflict of interest ended.

I'm with you.
Precision Alpha Strikes are neither good game design, lore-friendly, nor physics friendly.
ACs should be burst-fire, Missiles should spread, lasers should have duration, and the only PPFLD weapons (PPCs and Gauss) should be limited by weight, heat, or mechanics.

[martian]

Lykaon, on 28 December 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

Except for,and you have all seen this, Players who NEVER lock anything even targets they are currently looking right at and engaging.

The following scenario happens with alarming frequency.

A player moves into a bad spot and ends up facing off against an enemy or two that they can not handle alone. They do have assistance available to even up or even tip the scales in their favor but...they never lock targets so they get destroyed when,if they had only locked a target their team would have not lost a mech and the enemy team would have taken the losses.

And now imagine how useful it would be for the defending player to have a teammate that actually shares armor and structure. Wow! That would be something. Two defending 'Mechs against two attacking 'Mechs! As it is, two attackers concentrate their firepower and quickly destroy that one lone defender.

But sadly, that LRM-boat is camping few hundred meters behind the battle ...

The result is always the same: Fresh Lurmboat's with 99% health as the last living 'Mech(s) and the rest of the team dead because there was lack of firepower and armor in the front line.

Nothing sadder than seeing a LRM-Atlas in your team.

[Johny Rocket]

MischiefSC, on 27 December 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

@tractor Joe

I sorta went over all that in a post to sandpit. What you're missing is that currently with LRMs I can do all that as good or better with direct fire. The goal is to let lrms consistently do all that as well as acs or lasers.

At any Tier level. I'm not talking about comp tier meta play I'm talking most T2 or even t3. Currently lrms are flat out inferior to any df weapon, for reasons discussed prior.

The problem is df as a primary fire mode is bad. Not "evil" but a mechanic that is inherently binary (as in great or terrible, feast/famine) or if it's not clownshoes broken op.

You can't balance it to that.

So balance it to df and keep idf as a harassment secondary fire when someone is tagging/narcing them.

You'd get a good weapon that would be viable in a mixed loadout.

I really don't think you can though, can you respond in 4 sec to a teammate in trouble 800m away? can you use 1 mech and watch both flanks and shut down a flanking push? Even when its at the far end of your line? I don't bring defensive weapons my defense is a mean offense, so when I talk about a secondary group Im talking about a secondary group I can fight offensively with. Erll, pairs of cannons, LPL etc. My KTO 19 is a peerfect example, 4lrm5 2LL running 95kph, 700-900missiles. Thanks to quirks it nearly matches the KTO 18's rate of fire with one less launcher. This isn't a just incase I can't get locks deal, Im trying for crits where the lurms have ripped their armor off and fight with both. This is so effective that if I catch them alone I'll walk right out in the open to stay on them as they run.

I don't run exclusively lrms, I have several meta builds. I run BKs in CW sometimes 3 of them. This is not a lack of understanding the meta or why lasers are the meta. I'll go as far as telling people AC20 may be fun but 4ml does the same thing at the same range for 4t.
I know the short comings of the meta and there are plenty.

Need to get something clear here. These preconceived notions about how Lurmers play. Whats a boat? The only time I've ever run an all lrm build is derpin in my Oxide. I don't know any experienced lurmers who do it. The problem is someone says boat we the lurmers think X and others think Y and then try to frame the conversation from Y just being how it is. That is irritating BS strawman argument.
Just yesterday had a match where a guy with a narc asked if anyone brought lrms, 3 of us did and on Tourmaline you can pretty well guess the result, well they come back in chat about noobs with Lrms as we shredded them making our little narcer rich as Blake. That is humorous and they got the reply "thought only noobs died to lrms?" Whats not is when someone asks if we have lrms or ask people to remember to lock and some tryhard on our team starts raging about LRMs calling people noobs.
People act as if there are no players who know the shortcomings, work arounds and still like to play this weapon system and do well. Its another strawman built on opinion.

Now back to the proposed changes, I get where you are going, trust me I do and my reply is you really don't want the meta to shift there. The changes you propose will only double/triple the kills I average. Faster speed, lower arc and LOS lock. If I was thinking about my own gain I would be cheering you on but as a lurmer Im telling you, this would wreck havoc and further screw balance. I would keep the same builds Im running now, basically play the same way, the only change I might make is less ammo because hit ratio would go up, that tonnage would go into more 2nd group power or speed.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 28 December 2015 - 07:05 AM.

[Sir Texas Sir]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

This...don't be lazy. Plus, LRMs are really a misnomer in this game. You really shouldn't be using them from 900m out.

Specially if your running an LRM/SRM boat you get that mid range sweet spot you can actually launch both on the target. Makes that support way better when you suddenly shred some ones armor that a team mate was brawling.

[Rhent]

ChewBaka, on 28 December 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

And just how many people are agreeing with you too?

Fact of the matter is that if I have to stick around you, it also cramps my playstyle. Now if you're in a brawling Atlas or at least something of a hybrid, it means we both still get to see some action so I have some incentive to watch your back. I am a firm believer in following an assault into a charge.

If you're a slow-*** Atlas armed only with LRMs and hanging in the back, why should I stick around? It lowers my score as I deal less damage due to less contact with the enemy. Getting tags for you means putting my own mech at risk. All just so you can get a higher score and do more damage while I end up performing worse because I have to adjust my playstyle to suit yours? No thanks.

Now, I'm not saying its wrong to drive a slow Atlas but you'd better have a good reason for driving one to make me stick around. I see you hanging in the back and going "whoosh whoosh whoosh", you can bet your slow metal *** I'm going to leave you behind.

No, Tagging doesn't lower your score. If you had half a brain in your skull, you'd understand that Tagging greatly increases your score and gives you a free no-heat death ray. If you are tagging you get bonus xp and cbills for Tag when streaks and lrm's hit your target. You don't sit out in the open and tag, but when you are firing on the target you get the tag bonus or if you see an enemy mech with the incoming missile warning if you tag it, you get free xp and cbills. But to each their own, some people enjoy being able to score less and not understanding points of meta.

[Johny Rocket]

Rhent, on 28 December 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

No, Tagging doesn't lower your score. If you had half a brain in your skull, you'd understand that Tagging greatly increases your score and gives you a free no-heat death ray. If you are tagging you get bonus xp and cbills for Tag when streaks and lrm's hit your target. You don't sit out in the open and tag, but when you are firing on the target you get the tag bonus or if you see an enemy mech with the incoming missile warning if you tag it, you get free xp and cbills. But to each their own, some people enjoy being able to score less and not understanding points of meta.

Problem with tag is it is a pretty lil red beam going right back to your location. The big stream of missiles lets them know where you are but tag lets them know you are exposed. For an ecm scout tag can get you hunted down and should only be used when you are behind them.
Other than that you are correct.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 28 December 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[JaxRiot]

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 28 December 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

Asking other players to hold locks is the height of stupidity....

As team players do you not think we want to do this ?

There's only 1 major problem. THE OTHER TEAM IS SHOOTING AT US. Most of us refuse to sit there and soak up more damage than you could inflict with you LRM salvo.

So stop asking and realize that there's a reason we can't hold locks.

PS. BE SMART AND EQUIPE YOUR MECHS WITH SOME SECONDARY WEAPONS TO PROTECT YOURSELF / HELP OUT IN THE BRAWL...

Ok, first off.. Asking people to press R wouldnt be the height stupidity... Licking lawnmower blades, or using Ajax as toothpaste would be the Height of stupidity.

Asking for people to get locks is just a reminder/request because there are many people out there that dont ever press R. They just dont target lock at all. They are trying to play the game like it is Call of Duty.

They either dont want to, or they fail to realize that Targeting the enemy helps not only the LRMs to provide indirect fire support, but also helps the rest of their team locate the enemy also. Those little red dorritos do more than just provide a target for LRMs.

Most people who play LRM boats realize that its not very easy to Hold locks in this environment with all of the terrain, and ECM, and Radar Dep modules around. But pressing R when you can helps everyone.

[Aramoro999]

Wow, what a bunch of ******* trolls...

[Kjudoon]

Hotthedd, on 28 December 2015 - 06:49 AM, said:

I'm with you.
Precision Alpha Strikes are neither good game design, lore-friendly, nor physics friendly.
ACs should be burst-fire, Missiles should spread, lasers should have duration, and the only PPFLD weapons (PPCs and Gauss) should be limited by weight, heat, or mechanics.

...and all groupfired weapons should hit within a radius of the point aimed at, which increases or decreases based on movement, targetting computer, damage, heat and other factors.

martian, on 28 December 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

Nothing sadder than seeing a LRM-Atlas in your team.

You don't know how large the desire is to start bringing one just to pee in mech snob cornflakes.

I may or may not ask for locks too.

Possibly with an XL engine.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 December 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Rhent]

Tractor Joe, on 28 December 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Problem with tag is it is a pretty lil red beam going right back to your location. The big stream of missiles lets them know where you are but tag lets them know you are exposed. For an ecm scout tag can get you hunted down and should only be used when you are behind them.
Other than that you are correct.

You use tag when you are making a run against a mech OR if you see LRM's coming to hit an enemy mech. You only have to ping them once and tag lasts for 1 sec. So you can time your tag to get the bonus AND not give away your position. However, with heat vision, ECM lights are plain as day to me. I don't have an issue seeing them or countering them. Plus when they fire ERLL, it exposes their position. It would be different if they could run Gauss with enough ammo to be dangerous AND speed pop, shoot, scoot no one can find them.