551 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

Kraftwerkedup, on 26 December 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

I dont want you stealing my free kill

Here we have a real teamplayer in a teamgame where one team trys to win against another team ...

[Sandpit]

tortuousGoddess, on 28 December 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

I don't see any of that though. Maybe once a week, if I play hours a day. I wonder where the discrepancy is that makes what we see so different?

He's referring to the tournament and event weekends. It happens far more frequently then because everyone wants their points for rewards and ranking. It's more just a selfish play style than anything else.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Galenit, on 28 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Here we have a real teamplayer in a teamgame where one team trys to win against another team ...

I thought its been 1 v 12 this whole time.

I thought thats why my KDR was so high....

Man you guys are bad.

[Ratpoison]

Mystere, on 28 December 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

Ask PGI to relax their name-and-shame policy for a day and I'll publish a list after the next event.

But that's how you dignify them. You put them on display where they can have something to be "proud" of, so that whatever insecurities they have that were convincing them to troll feel satisfied.

That is why Name and Shame is bad for everyone.

You call them out in chat, talk with someone else in game about how dumb their trolling is, and you put that social pressure on them, THAT puts them in their place, and shames them into quitting.

[Galenit]

Kraftwerkedup, on 28 December 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

I thought thats why my KDR was so high....

What happend?
Why was your kdr so high and isnt anymore?
Did you stop playing?

Edited by Galenit, 28 December 2015 - 04:06 PM.

[Mystere]

tortuousGoddess, on 28 December 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

But that's how you dignify them. You put them on display where they can have something to be "proud" of, so that whatever insecurities they have that were convincing them to troll feel satisfied.

That is why Name and Shame is bad for everyone.

You call them out in chat, talk with someone else in game about how dumb their trolling is, and you put that social pressure on them, THAT puts them in their place, and shames them into quitting.

I don't know about you, but I think a published list with the appropriate chat quotes would be a more effective means of applying social pressure than just merely admonishing someone in in-game chat.

[Wintersdark]

tortuousGoddess, on 28 December 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

I don't see any of that though. Maybe once a week, if I play hours a day. I wonder where the discrepancy is that makes what we see so different?

I often wonder this, too. Please understand, I don't say it doesn't happen...

But I've gotten some 6000+ drops in this game. In that time, I've only very rarely seen anyone saying these sorts of things in chat. Almost never. Oh, sure, it happens... But I'm genuinely shocked when it does because - for me at least, in my tiers (see visible tier) - its extremely uncommon.

Maybe I'm supremely lucky? Maybe I just play at the right times? I don't know. But that's been my experience, and its been consistent since I started playing in 2012.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 December 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 28 December 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

He's referring to the tournament and event weekends. It happens far more frequently then because everyone wants their points for rewards and ranking. It's more just a selfish play style than anything else.

Possible. I know I avoid playing during those events except at very off times because while I don't encounter these things in chat, I despise how people's overall play becomes so selfish and stupid. Not fun, IMHO.

Mind you, I find people just being poor sports offensive enough to not want to play, so maybe that's why I don't encounter it. I just stop playing when the ******** are out.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 28 December 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

I often wonder this, too. Please understand, I don't say it doesn't happen...

But I've gotten some 6000+ drops in this game. In that time, I've only very rarely seen anyone saying these sorts of things in chat. Almost never. Oh, sure, it happens... But I'm genuinely shocked when it does because - for me at least, in my tiers (see visible tier) - its extremely uncommon.

Maybe I'm supremely lucky? Maybe I just play at the right times? I don't know. But that's been my experience, and its been consistent since I started playing in 2012.

It hink some of it is Tier level as well. I'm Tier 3, when I see names I recognize I don't run into it. WHen I see a bunch of names I don't recognize, no unit association, no faction association, that's when I tend to run into those mentalities in the pub queue. It's "every man for himself" across the board in tournies and events though regardless of tier usually.

I see plenty of "good" players doing silly things like that "Cuz they is gonna steal my keal!"

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 28 December 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

It hink some of it is Tier level as well. I'm Tier 3, when I see names I recognize I don't run into it. WHen I see a bunch of names I don't recognize, no unit association, no faction association, that's when I tend to run into those mentalities in the pub queue. It's "every man for himself" across the board in tournies and events though regardless of tier usually.

I see plenty of "good" players doing silly things like that "Cuz they is gonna steal my keal!"

I certainly see the poor play during tournaments, and that's why I don't play during prime time during tournaments. I can't stand playing around people like that.

But in chat? I probably encounter someone being a real ******* in chat maybe once, twice in a month. Once a week and its like a nightmarish storm.

This is why I don't play any other PvP games, mind you.

Whatever the reason, I'm deeply glad I don't have to suffer it often. I'd probably just stop playing entirely.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 28 December 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

I certainly see the poor play during tournaments, and that's why I don't play during prime time during tournaments. I can't stand playing around people like that.

But in chat? I probably encounter someone being a real ******* in chat maybe once, twice in a month. Once a week and its like a nightmarish storm.

This is why I don't play any other PvP games, mind you.

Whatever the reason, I'm deeply glad I don't have to suffer it often. I'd probably just stop playing entirely.

The CST times I find it more happen are early afternoon lately. Once you start hitting the US prime time it lightens up immensely

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 28 December 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

The CST times I find it more happen are early afternoon lately. Once you start hitting the US prime time it lightens up immensely

Yeah, I mostly play later, often more towards 10+pm mountain time (gmt-7). Thus, I avoid the kids. Also, thanks to the PSR system, I don't see new players either. Hurray for experience bars!

[Kjudoon]

Quote

If a carpenter likes to drive nails with a rock he's not "more skilled". He's just using a bad tool to get the job done.

In fact there is nothing a rock will do that his other tools won't do better. It's just a bad tool. It won't make him a better carpenter because it just teaches him bad habits. He'll never be as good as a carpenter who learns to use the right tools the right way.

False analogy. Let me correct it.

LRMs are not a rock. They are a very good hammer that other people got mad people it was not driving nails the same way as them and was superior because it could hit the nail without even being seen.

Essentially, LRMs got told to drive nails while holding it with 2 fingers... in the middle of the handle... and hitting it with the claw. THEN it was declared 'fair' to the other hammers.

Give the following defensive techs to energy and ballistic weapons and you will see how unfair this has become.

What if warnings were made when a DF weapon's target reticule is aiming at you.
Provide an AMS like system that decreased damage on all ballistic or energy weapons inside its radius
ECM prevents weapons from firing at all or reduces the chance to hit to 10%

People would lose it.

So don't claim that LRMs are being judged equally. They are not because the comparison has been deliberately flawed and biased against them first. To claim otherwise is a lie.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 December 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Satan n stuff, on 28 December 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

If we put all the solo players in a game mode that promotes solo play to the exclusion of everything else, they'll just learn even worse behavior which will need to be dealt with if they ever decide to play as part of a team.

It's not a matter of that. Coordination counts for worlds more than skill.

[Mad Strike]

LRMs are team damage boosts , there

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 28 December 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

False analogy. Let me correct it.

LRMs are not a rock. They are a very good hammer that other people got mad people it was not driving nails the same way as them and was superior because it could hit the nail without even being seen.

Essentially, LRMs got told to drive nails while holding it with 2 fingers... in the middle of the handle... and hitting it with the claw. THEN it was declared 'fair' to the other hammers.

Give the following defensive techs to energy and ballistic weapons and you will see how unfair this has become.

What if warnings were made when a DF weapon's target reticule is aiming at you.
Provide an AMS like system that decreased damage on all ballistic or energy weapons inside its radius
ECM prevents weapons from firing at all or reduces the chance to hit to 10%

People would lose it.

So don't claim that LRMs are being judged equally. They are not because the comparison has been deliberately flawed and biased against them first. To claim otherwise is a lie.

Sorry, but no. In the free market of play in the game LRMs are inferior to direct fire. Universally. Better perhaps than MGs and Flamers but otherwise inferior to just about any direct fire weapon. They are a rock. Can you use them to drive a nail? Sure. Poorly, but sure.

Why are they inferior? Is it intentional? Absolutely it is because if they are able to inflict damage as effectively and reliably as DF weapons then they are absolutely superior to DF weapons, because shooting someone who can't shoot you back > shooting someone who can't shoot you back. When LRMs did CT damage almost universally (which is about as close as you can get to accurate/consistent fire with a locking weapon compared to a manually aimed weapon) they were the meta and anyone/everyone could use them pretty much as well as anyone else.

All the counters and gimps to LRMs exist because IDF is a terrible mechanic to try and use in a FPS game. We've already been over this. You liking it has nothing to do with it being factual, which it is. A locking IDF weapon is broke as **** in terms of balance, so it gets nerfed into near uselessness because otherwise it makes all other weapons obsolete and removes the FPS skillset from the game.

If all DF weapons let you shoot people through low terrain from 1,000m away if anyone on my team could see you it would make for a pretty silly game. If it let you 'lock' the target and gimbal weapons so I just needed to sorta point at you instead of aim precisely and lead the target it would also be a pretty silly game. Nobody would play it.

LRMs are a rock, they are not a hammer. They are a bad weapon and there really isn't any good reason to take them aside from giggles and variety. In pug/group queue you can use them in lower tier play and have a laugh but, again, as stated before because they are locking weapons, slow travel time, etc. all the things introduced to keep them from being clownshoes OP they are more dependent on the targets skill than the users skill.

I've already discussed ways to change that and keep them in balance with the game. That essentially involves making them work more like they do in TT. A support weapon in a 12 v 12 moba game was never and will never be a good idea; either they are so effective there's no point in taking anything else and you've got 12 v 12 IDF warz (like we had for a while with CT seeking LRMs and head seeking LRMs or super fast LRMs) or they're inferior in which case bringing them shorts your team 1 person on the line. That's only OK when neither team is good enough to really be fighting 12 v 12 but is instead 12 individuals wandering around hoping to shoot 12 other individuals.

You're saying you want LRMs to be OP. I've had this argument with people about PPCs - they wanted PPCs to be superior to all ballistics, cuz.... reasons? You're saying the same thing. You want the game decided by locks and IDF and the FPS/twitch/aiming skills that generally define FPS to be largely irrelevant. You want the game balanced around T4/T5 play and everyone to have to effectively play that way. Not only is that a terrible idea but it's fair to say it's never going to happen.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

Sorry, but no. In the free market of play in the game LRMs are inferior to direct fire.

Really? So artificial inferiority is legitimate now, because reasons? Rustled jimmies?

Let's run a little comparison.

Let's take LPLs the current king of the game's weapons.

What if we slapped a charge up time on it for 1 whole second after trigger pull before it fired?
During that whole second the target was warned it was being aimed at (sensors detect weapon charging!)
Then, since the precident has been set that energy travels slowing than bullets (thanks PPC screwup ruling) LPLs now hae a travel speed of 900m/s.
And lastly, have damage spread across the part it hits and the two next to it like Clan ERPPCs.

...oh.. and before I forget, you can't shoot targets under ECM and white paint can remove up to 40% of your damage.

Now, how good of a hammer is that, in that it has been 'fairly adjusted'?

That is what you're doing to LRMs and claiming all is fair.

Your argument that LRMs are a rock, not a hammer is invalid.

[Kjudoon]

And furthermore, let's flip the template.

Let's take Flamers, a patently useless "rock" of a weapon.

Now they cool your mech to the equivalent of 3 DHS when in use.

They transferring your heat directly to an opponant and do 4 points of damage per second to the componant it hits, plus equal... not divided... damage to each adjacent part. So if you hit CT, you also damage equally both ST, Legs and Head.

And lastly, cannot max damage, so ultimately, you can kill an enemy mech by overheating.

Even if we do nothing to the range, this is a devestating weapon.

Again, you have broken the weapon and evaluated it not taking into account it was artificially broken for the sake of some flamer fans.

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 28 December 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

Really? So artificial inferiority is legitimate now, because reasons? Rustled jimmies?

Let's run a little comparison.

Let's take LPLs the current king of the game's weapons.

What if we slapped a charge up time on it for 1 whole second after trigger pull before it fired?
During that whole second the target was warned it was being aimed at (sensors detect weapon charging!)
Then, since the precident has been set that energy travels slowing than bullets (thanks PPC screwup ruling) LPLs now hae a travel speed of 900m/s.
And lastly, have damage spread across the part it hits and the two next to it like Clan ERPPCs.

...oh.. and before I forget, you can't shoot targets under ECM and white paint can remove up to 40% of your damage.

Now, how good of a hammer is that, in that it has been 'fairly adjusted'?

That is what you're doing to LRMs and claiming all is fair.

Your argument that LRMs are a rock, not a hammer is invalid.

LRMs are a rock because they are bad on purpose, because IDF is a **** mechanic in a FPS. They are a rock because PGI wants to include them as IDF support weapons because they had that terrible idea long ago and if there's one thing you can say about PGI it's that if they have a terrible idea they would rather introduce 100 other terrible ideas to 'fix it' instead of removing or reworking it.

I've already suggested how to fix them - flat, fast trajectory, etc. etc. They still wouldn't be accurate but they would be more consistently useful and as such more viable and have some synergy ballistic/energy weapons. You may not see them much in comp tournament matches but they'd see use in T3, T2 and even T1 in pug queue. Would be a huge improvement.

Could even leave them with a secondary IDF mode requiring NARC/TAG of the target and a wider spread for harassing/brushback use.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

All the counters and gimps to LRMs exist because IDF is a terrible mechanic to try and use in a FPS game.

No it's not a terrible mechanic. FPS players who can't deal with rocks being thrown over a wall should be ashamed of themselves.

Quote

LRMs are a rock because they are bad on purpose

That is bad game design and ignorant criticism..
NO game should have a weapon that has no purpose. But that's the core problem of PGI I think in this whole issue.

Quote

I've already suggested how to fix them - flat, fast trajectory, etc. etc. They still wouldn't be accurate but they would be more consistently useful and as such more viable and have some synergy ballistic/energy weapons. You may not see them much in comp tournament matches but they'd see use in T3, T2 and even T1 in pug queue. Would be a huge improvement.

Your solution. Either make them all 1000m streaks at AC speeds or convert them all to LBx weapons.

That is NOT an improvement. that is an elimination.

You do not get the concept of 'distinction without difference'. If there IS a difference, define it please. It better be substantial functionally.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 December 2015 - 09:43 PM.