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Why Are So Many Complaining About "op Kodiak"?


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#381 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 12:53 PM

View PostRestosIII, on 05 November 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:


"I should have listened to my cousin Gaila. He said to me 'Quark, I have one word for you: Weapons. No-one ever went broke selling weapons.' But did I take his advice? No. And why not? Because I'm a people person! I like interacting with my customers, like you and I are doing right now. Talking to each other, getting to know one another."

"I can see the attraction, for you."

"But when you're dealing in weapons, buyers aren't interested in casual conversation. They just want their merchandise, no questions asked. It's so impersonal."

"Your charms would be wasted."

"Exactly. So now, Gaila owns his own moon. And I'm staring in to the abyss."


While I would never say I was a DS9 fan it really had its moments. Ironically I think DS9 would have been better in the B5 universe. The concept was great - just so many issues with the Star Trek universe.

Quark, however, and his associated sub-plots was usually pretty awesome.

#382 Deathlike

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 12:59 PM

View PostGhogiel, on 05 November 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

When the DWF came out it wasn't OP. lol good one.


lol... Dire Wolf on its original release was ridiculous.

"Clans weren't OP", except you saw Timberwolves having a field day over the Victor.

Gyrok would be proud.

#383 Prof RJ Gumby

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 01:19 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 05 November 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

(...)
If you balance by anything other that top tier, you are simply using worthless data to balance from. You're not balancing "for the 90%" at all, you are simply making decisions on incorrect information. The result is imbalance everywhere from top to bottom.

The reason to balance around the top is not to cater to the top players at all, the reason you have to do it is that it is the only useful data that exists for any kind of game balancing.
(...)


While I agree in general, I just wanted to (on a side note) remind that impact of changes on lower tiers need to be taken into account too. E.g. if we would straight up buff LRMs so they would be of any use on competitive level, they would be brokenly OP for beginners.

Just saying

#384 RestosIII

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 01:28 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 05 November 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:


While I would never say I was a DS9 fan it really had its moments. Ironically I think DS9 would have been better in the B5 universe. The concept was great - just so many issues with the Star Trek universe.

Quark, however, and his associated sub-plots was usually pretty awesome.


DS9 is probably my favorite live-action show out there, so... Anyone that wants to say it's anything but beautiful will have to fight me.

Posted Image

And literally the only reason the Whale isn't still the top assault is because the KDK-3 is just better in every way. I still wish the Whale was the 100 ton tanking option for the Clans, but, it's just a high output turret.

#385 Mcgral18

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 02:18 PM

View PostGhogiel, on 05 November 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

When the DWF came out it wasn't OP. lol good one.


I would argue that
Was it the first Dual Gauss assault? Crab was December of the same year.

It had no competition at release, without any meaningful quirks on many mechs (...trying to confirm, but I can't find when the atlas was quirked)

It certainly isn't anymore, with many blanket nerfs and quirks to other mechs, but launch was something altogether different, with 5 heat ERMLs at full range. It had impressive LOLphas.



Oh...sarcasm

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 November 2016 - 10:16 PM.


#386 Dee Eight

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 02:31 PM

View PostZergling, on 05 November 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

[size=4]

You consistently produce potato tier stats in the leaderboards, month after month, so any claim of 'competing' with decent players can be treated as a load of bull, as can your claim of 'killing KDK-3s just fine'.


Because I spend my time playing to level mechs and don't chase meta try-hard builds to just pump damage and inflate my results. If I did, you wouldn't even be able to stay close to me in results.

Quote

Tip for potatoes: don't make claims of being a better player than you are.


Tip for comptards : don't make assumptions based on leaderboard figures.


Quote

I completely destroyed his arguments about supposed cheating invalidating the leaderboard statistics in the previous thread, which resulted in him running to the mods to lock the thread for discussion of cheating, when he was the one that bought it up.


Except you didn't. And I didn't run to the mods to have the thread locked.

View PostMystere, on 05 November 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:


Well, just to be fair, the leaderboards do not state what Mechs a player has killed. For all we know, he's been hunting KDK-3s and being successful at it. Posted Image


It also doesn't track kill assists or kmdd's.

#387 Mystere

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 03:04 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 05 November 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Because I spend my time playing to level mechs and don't chase meta try-hard builds to just pump damage and inflate my results. If I did, you wouldn't even be able to stay close to me in results.

Tip for comptards : don't make assumptions based on leaderboard figures.

Except you didn't. And I didn't run to the mods to have the thread locked.

It also doesn't track kill assists or kmdd's.


"Casual" Player: Yay! I just scored a Johnny 5 with all KMDDs.

Comp Player: Pfft! I score Ace of Spades every single game.

"Casual" Player: Really? Now do it while using only an Emotiv Epoc.

Comp Player: Uh! Hurr! Durr! Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 05 November 2016 - 03:06 PM.


#388 Sjorpha

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 04:13 PM

View PostProf RJ Gumby, on 05 November 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:


While I agree in general, I just wanted to (on a side note) remind that impact of changes on lower tiers need to be taken into account too. E.g. if we would straight up buff LRMs so they would be of any use on competitive level, they would be brokenly OP for beginners.

Just saying


Yes, I agree with that completely.

But what that means is that you have to look at what anomalies are caused in lower tiers by different skill caps for weapons etc, and address them specifically if they create too much problems. The foundational balancing should still use data from top tier play.

LRMs are especially problematic in this case, not only because they have a weird skill cap anomaly where they go from operpowered to useless the moment a certain skill threshold is crossed, there is also the problem that a 6 million module allows to ignore them, and new players don't have 6 million to buy a module with. A kind of double whammy.

Despite that I think it's a problem that LRMs are useless for comp, it's sad to have weapons not being used in serious play. It's a problem. I could personally say go ahead and buff them, but I'm not suffering the rain as a struggling newbie.

And yeah we need newbies to have fun and stay, now more than ever, so that can't be ignored. I think a rework of LRMs to remove the weird skill curve would be good.

#389 Fyrwulf

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 07:51 PM

LRMs were bad in beta. In the old Forest Colony map, you had a legit shot at multiple kills if you brought a missile boat. And nothing made my blood run cold faster than getting an incoming missile warning with no cover around. On the other hand, LRMs are at present rather under-powered; it's a fairly sad commentary that we need ridiculous mechs like the Longbow and Kraken 3 to make LRMs feared again. There needs to be a middle ground.

#390 Zergling

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 08:29 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 05 November 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Because I spend my time playing to level mechs and don't chase meta try-hard builds to just pump damage and inflate my results. If I did, you wouldn't even be able to stay close to me in results.


Excuses excuses.


Here's your results for every leaderboard season so far.

Season 1:
Overall = 0.89 W/L, 0.83 K/D, 180 MS
Lights = 0.68 W/L, 0.65 K/D, 142 MS
Mediums = 0.92 W/L, 0.68 K/D, 159 MS
Heavies = 0.77 W/L, 0.98 K/D, 199 MS
Assaults = 1.06 W/L, 1.50 K/D, 282 MS (my KDK-3 sense is tingling)

Season 2:
Overall = 0.96 W/L, 0.82 K/D, 198 MS
Lights = 1.07 W/L, 0.73 K/D, 152 MS
Mediums = 0.96 W/L, 0.79 K/D, 181 MS
Heavies = 0.93 W/L, 0.83 K/D, 184 MS
Assaults = 0.93 W/L, 0.85 K/D, 220 MS

Season 3:
Overall = 0.98 W/L, 0.64 K/D, 163 MS
Lights = 0.89 W/L, 0.58 K/D, 122 MS
Mediums = 0.97 W/L, 0.32 K/D, 145 MS
Heavies = 1.00 W/L, 0.62 K/D, 166 MS
Assaults = 1.04 W/L, 0.85 K/D, 193 MS

Season 4:
Overall = 0.81 W/L, 0.71 K/D, 170 MS
Lights = 0.86 W/L, 0.54 K/D, 127 MS
Mediums = 0.77 W/L, 0.61 K/D, 152 MS
Heavies = 0.86 W/L, 0.88 K/D, 184 MS
Assaults = 0.80 W/L, 0.71 K/D, 207 MS

Season 5:
Overall = 0.80 W/L, 0.64 K/D, 201 MS
Lights = N/A
Mediums = N/A
Heavies = N/A
Assaults = 0.80 W/L, 0.64 K/D, 201 MS

The only time in those months that you have pulled off a 'decent' score is Assaults in Season 1. Every other time, your performance has been that of a potato.

If you were actually a decent player, you would produce better stats than that, regardless of the 'non-meta' state of the mechs you are using.



And here's the thing: I don't chase meta try-hard builds either, and I still produce far better leaderboard results than you.

Here's my leaderboard stats, starting with Season 3 when I started playing again after a year long break:

Season 3:
Overall = 1.28 W/L, 1.24 K/D, 233 MS
Lights = 1.86 W/L, 1.25 K/D, 234 MS
Mediums = 1.04 W/L, 1.01 K/D, 210 MS
Heavies = 1.92 W/L, 1.59 K/D, 245 MS
Assaults = 1.26 W/L, 1.38 K/D, 257 MS

Season 4:
Overall = 1.30 W/L, 1.77 K/D, 265 MS
Lights = 1.02 W/L, 1.37 K/D, 231 MS
Mediums = 1.35 W/L, 2.22 K/D, 258 MS
Heavies = 1.53 W/L, 1.97 K/D, 288 MS
Assaults = 1.22 W/L, 1.64 K/D, 261 MS

Season 5:

Overall = 1.18 W/L, 1.73 K/D, 249 MS
Lights = N/A
Mediums = N/A
Heavies = 1.18 W/L, 1.73 K/D, 249 MS
Assaults = N/A

Big difference to your stats: I have produced at least average stats in all seasons and weight classes.

My worst stats are when I was using the Loyalty Wolverine 7D and Cicada 3F in Season 3. Those are definitely not 'meta' mechs and actually kinda garbage overall, but I still produced better stats than you have in all 4 seasons you have played medium mechs in.

Then in Season 4 I was using the Executioner almost exclusively, another mech that is definitely not 'meta', and I produced stats far above your own for all seasons except 1 (which appears to be when you used the KDK-3; no wonder you're defending it when it makes a potato seem good).

I used the loyalty Summoner and Ebon Jaguar in Season 4, but I stopped using them the moment I mastered them.

This month I'm using Thunderbolt 9SE and Timber Wolf C I bought in the Steam Heavy Pack, and I'm not using meta builds with either of them.
I consider my performance in those mechs to be fairly bad; I'm only averaging 389 damage in the Tbolt, and 377 in the Timby, but I am still producing a 249 average match score.
If that is all it takes to achieve positive W/L and K/D, along with average MS above the upper 25% mark, then I just don't know what players with below average stats are doing.


And there are many more players that are far better than me, and they aren't using meta builds either, so don't use the excuse that players better than you must be abusing 'meta' builds, because you are insulting their skill to make yourself not look as terrible.

To use an analogy, your argument is essentially that bad golf players should be excused for doing badly because they have bad clubs, and that good golfers only do good because they have good clubs, which is literally moronic, because the good players will still beat the bad players even when the good players are using bad clubs.



View PostDee Eight, on 05 November 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Tip for comptards : don't make assumptions based on leaderboard figures.


Oh, I'm not a comptard; I'm a potato like you.

I just don't pretend to be anything else, and admit that when my stats are way better than my norm (like in Season 4 with heavies), it is because of the mech I was using, not because I'm somehow playing better.

You on the other hand, seem to think your 'norm' is when you are playing great mechs, and that the rest of the time you are only doing badly because you aren't using great mechs. And you use that as an excuse to shield your ego from criticism.



View PostDee Eight, on 05 November 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Except you didn't. And I didn't run to the mods to have the thread locked.


Oh but I did. You ceased trying to argue, and started with meaningless hyperbole instead of trying to refute my posts, a clear sigh that someone has lost an argument.

And given you were threatening to report me to the mods, you'll have to excuse me for thinking you did.



View PostDee Eight, on 05 November 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

It also doesn't track kill assists or kmdd's.


Those are reflected in match score.

Assists are meaningless, but if you are scoring lots of KMDDs without kills, you will have a higher than normal match score for your K/D ratio. And you don't.

Edited by Zergling, 06 November 2016 - 03:22 AM.


#391 Smokeyjedi

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 08:56 PM

There, Tonight. A spirit bear who was open red CT coming out of the tunnel under the platform in Crimson straight. I dropped down in my atlas DDC with 2LL and 2AC5s i surprised him and nailed him @ 200M square in the belly...with 2LL+2AC5s/ he lived. so i held down the trigger and let 4 X 2AC5s nail him open red CT all the while cycling the LL (so ill be super conservative and say +3 LL) to the belly, so i didn't overheat.......

Before he powered back up from overheating alpha'ing me when i dropped on his face..........he rushed me and got to me and i finally killed him with another pair of AC5s.......countless damage i raged on mic and in game text and proceeded to completely rip apart a mauler and a hunch back. Ie;wide open CT in seconds..... they retreated...........with the exact same treatment.........the guy next to me who was to the left (line of sight into tunnel) killed the 2 remaining mechs i speak of with a single ballistic round he was firing.....dont know for sure but probably AC10......wasn't AC20 for sure.......

And the second encounter tonight in FW (1st drop in mnths) was in my K2 catapult with 2AC10 + 4ML I performed a seemingly perfect flank.....on a kodiak who was RED OPEN CT exchanging mid range fire from back of the pack, I got his attention, he turned to see me and I alpha struck him in the belly with 2AC10 + 4ML and he lived, he went on to rip me to pieces before my teammate killed him him, I killed a timberwolf seconds after he died.....it did not survive the alpha to the open CT......dark red open CT on Kodiac means nothing.

Edited by Smokeyjedi, 05 November 2016 - 09:01 PM.


#392 Fyrwulf

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 10:01 PM

Red doesn't mean open, it means the armor is very low. Black means open. And you were firing into the most armored section of the mech. If you had the drop on these Kodiaks, why didn't you wait to open up on their backs? Again, I've solo'd fresh Kodiaks in a splat Vulture. It required me to move and seek weak points in the armor scheme while having a new orifice ripped into me, but I did it, and I'm not a great pilot.

#393 Rhent

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 10:07 PM

View PostGhogiel, on 05 November 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

When the DWF came out it wasn't OP. lol good one.


The Whale wasn't OP due to it's engine cap. Now I want you to use your brain, because you are having problems reading and comprehending. When you are reading a thread about a nerf, and someone throws out a nerf (set the engine cap to be lower or identical to the Whale), now why would I make that suggestion? Could it be that me the poster was using the Whales slowness, which helped to keep the Whale from being OP as the nerf. Could that have been it? Do you understand now or do you need a hug and a medal to get you to the finish line?

#394 Ghogiel

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 02:58 AM

View PostRhent, on 05 November 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:


The Whale wasn't OP due to it's engine cap.

neither is the KDK OP due to it's engine cap. Doesn't matter anyway because it comes stock with a 400 so your nerf solution idea is silly at best.

#395 C E Dwyer

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 03:22 AM

Kodiak OP cries come about because everyone looks at them like they are all KDK-3's and that one is OP

Had it been designed with the second ballistic Hard point bellow the first, most of these threads about Kodiaks would go away.

but lol hindsight

#396 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 07:51 AM

View PostRestosIII, on 05 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

And literally the only reason the Whale isn't still the top assault is because the KDK-3 is just better in every way. I still wish the Whale was the 100 ton tanking option for the Clans, but, it's just a high output turret.

The Whale wouldn't be the top assault if the KDK-3 didn't exist, let's dispel that right now. It would be better considering the small nerfs to the Mauler and other IS assaults, but still, they would be better. Unless you meant top Clan assault, in which case you would be correct.

#397 dario03

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 09:56 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 06 November 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

The Whale wouldn't be the top assault if the KDK-3 didn't exist, let's dispel that right now. It would be better considering the small nerfs to the Mauler and other IS assaults, but still, they would be better. Unless you meant top Clan assault, in which case you would be correct.


It would be up there though. You did see them used in comp games where teams would set up firing lines because of its massive fire power. Other assaults would be better for other strats though. And thats the problem with the KDK3, the KDK3 is just so good at every assault strat that it makes it the best choice for almost anything. And the strats that it actually isn't better at, are just not good strats now or are super risky. The positives on the KDK3 simply outweigh the negatives, you are better off just changing your strat to work with the KDK3.

#398 Baulven

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 11:16 AM

View PostRhent, on 05 November 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:


The Whale wasn't OP due to it's engine cap. Now I want you to use your brain, because you are having problems reading and comprehending. When you are reading a thread about a nerf, and someone throws out a nerf (set the engine cap to be lower or identical to the Whale), now why would I make that suggestion? Could it be that me the poster was using the Whales slowness, which helped to keep the Whale from being OP as the nerf. Could that have been it? Do you understand now or do you need a hug and a medal to get you to the finish line?


There are multiple reasons the 3 does well. High here points, speed, and battlemech flexibility. Tied 2 tech would fix most of the last one, speed is locked by standard config and unless they redraw the mech those hard points aren't going anywhere. Anyone that can figure out game mechanics could have told you it would be beefy.

#399 FuzzyNova

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 11:19 AM

My Quad AC Night Gyr can bring down a Kodiak with a little effort.

#400 Smokeyjedi

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 04:04 PM

View PostFyrwulf, on 05 November 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

Red doesn't mean open, it means the armor is very low. Black means open. And you were firing into the most armored section of the mech. If you had the drop on these Kodiaks, why didn't you wait to open up on their backs? Again, I've solo'd fresh Kodiaks in a splat Vulture. It required me to move and seek weak points in the armor scheme while having a new orifice ripped into me, but I did it, and I'm not a great pilot.

I dont know whay language you speak in game, but open red CT to me, means there is no armour and the ct is red.

Another example would be a orange CT kodiac//still has armour/ This mech I speak of had no armor, exposed internals that were previously damaged one hit away from death in any mech i could think of

Edited by Smokeyjedi, 06 November 2016 - 04:19 PM.






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