247 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

ok I suppose if you ignore the importance of range as a factor

but most of those weapons you listed are limited to like 300m or less... a lot of them are even 200m or less.

they dont have the same 400m range that a CERML gets you for only 1 ton

a lot of those weapons simply have no application in the poking meta. where medium lasers do. thats a key difference. medium lasers were too good at what they did thats why they got nerfed.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

ok I suppose if you ignore the importance of range as a factor

but most of those weapons you listed are limited to like 300m or less... a lot of them are even 200m or less.

they dont have the same 400m range that a CERML gets you for only 1 ton

And what about the IS ML? You just gonna forget about that one? That one with only 270m range got nerfed too, and you support that nerf.

Edited by FupDup, 30 November 2017 - 01:38 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

And what about the IS ML? You just gonna forget about that one? That one with only 270m range got nerfed too, and you support that nerf.

im talking about ERMLs specifically.

the ISML probably didnt need to be nerfed.

the ISERML is fine how it is now. but CERML needs to be nerfed more IMO. Its still too good at 7 damage for 1 ton and 400m range. Needs to go down to 6 damage.

the CERML used to be like a 1 ton IS large laser. So yeah its okay that it got nerfed. I dont see what youre crying about.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 01:52 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

im talking about ERMLs specifically.

the ISML probably didnt need to be nerfed.

the ISERML is fine how it is now. but CERML needs to be nerfed more IMO. Its still too good at 7 damage for 1 ton and 400m range. Needs to go down to 6 damage.

the CERML used to be like a 1 ton IS large laser. So yeah its okay that it got nerfed. I dont see what youre crying about.

I'm crying about the IS side getting hit for no good reason (no IS weapon has been OP in a very long time), and also that the Clan side got hit in the wrong attribute.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

im talking about ERMLs specifically.

the ISML probably didnt need to be nerfed.

the ISERML is fine how it is now. but CERML needs to be nerfed more IMO. Its still too good at 7 damage for 1 ton and 400m range. Needs to go down to 6 damage.

the CERML used to be like a 1 ton IS large laser. So yeah its okay that it got nerfed. I dont see what youre crying about.

The IS ERML is only 90 extra meters, the Clan one is 130. The IS volleys are only 52 points and can only fire twice, and then they take far longer before they can fire again. This lack of output makes it such that AC boats can expose on them and trade out the same or better damage and brawlers can rush them without getting crippled before coming into range. This was even the case before it was nerfed. All the nerf did was make it difficult for the IS to trade against Clans since they rely on multiple smaller, faster hits to cancel off the larger single volley.

And, besides, the cMPL has the same practical range as the isERML, fires way faster, is way more heat efficient, and way more tonnage efficient for the bracket than massing 15 tons of large laser and five tons of Mediums to spit out the same 50-56 points.

The nerf was wrong and bad.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

I didnt ask for things that "came close" lmao

try again.

K.

I did the SPL math wrong (counted cooldown twice)

IS SPL (or Clan SPL) = 1 ton & 1 slot for 7.0 (8.0) damage in 3.9 (4.1) seconds

That's at least 1

HSL = 0.5 tons & 1 slot for 6.5 damage in only 1.2 seconds

That makes 2

SL = 0.5 tons & 1 slot for 6.5 damage in 3.75 seconds

That makes 3

Clan ERSL = 0.5 tons & 1 slot for 5 damage in only 1.10 seconds

That makes 4

mPL = 0.5 tons & 1 slot for 5.4 damage in only 2.6 seconds

That makes 5

So there are at least 5 weapons can can equal or beat 5-7 damage in 4 seconds for 1 ton & 1 crit.

[Edit] Missed a few words & changed wording on SPL comparison for clarity [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 30 November 2017 - 03:45 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

I feel the need to point out that the ML, IS ERML & Clan ERL don't deal 5-7 damage every 4 seconds (before someone points out that some of my examples can't do 5-7 damage EVERY 4 seconds).

ML = 5 damage very 4.40 seconds
IS ERML = 5 damage every 4.90 seconds
Clan ERML = 7 damage every 5.75 seconds

That's why I took a 4 second time frame, because the basis of the claim "5-7 damage every 4 seconds" was wrong.

[panzer1b]

The primary reason the ERML and HLL are so good is because they have the best tonnage to damage, all while retaining mid range ability. The ability to hit stuff at 400-600m far outweighs the benefit that even smaller weapons (like the ERSL) gain in DPS, dmg/ton, and burn time. Given that 90% of maps allow you to easily engage at said range, its a no-brainer to bring a battery of ERMLs boosted in alfa strike by your choice of heavy class lasers or even GRs and just poke at 500m or so, where your guns do max or near max damage, and anything short of an enemy with more ERML alfa strike can trade effectively.

Also, while im very doubtful of it ever being implemented, the ONLY surefire method to solve the laser meta would bve to implement something akin to alfa strike based ghost heat, and not weapon combo based. Make it so that firing any more then say 50 alfa within a set time period triggers a heat penalty, and any more then say 60 or so will be exponentially more punishing to the point that a 70 point alfa strike will automatically shut you down even on a very cold map. Its also a system that CANNOT be exploited reliably, since its capped at a damage number and not any particular gun combo (if there was no ghost heat thered be no good reason to not just bring 15 ERMLs and go crazy).

[Khobai]

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So there are at least 5 weapons can can equal or beat 5-7 damage in 4 seconds for 1 ton & 1 crit.

but none of them had the same range or enjoyed the same status in the poking meta

they all fell short of being as efficient as the CERML

in a lot of ways they still do. but its not as bad since CERML cooldown was nerfed.

Quote

I feel the need to point out that the ML, IS ERML & Clan ERL don't deal 5-7 damage every 4 seconds (before someone points out that some of my examples can't do 5-7 damage EVERY 4 seconds).

ML = 5 damage very 4.40 seconds
IS ERML = 5 damage every 4.90 seconds
Clan ERML = 7 damage every 5.75 seconds

That's why I took a 4 second time frame, because the basis of the claim "5-7 damage every 4 seconds" was wrong.

it wasnt wrong. that was their cooldown pre-nerf (CERML used to have a 3s cooldown and 1.15 beam duration)

which is the whole reason their cooldown was nerfed

thats what we were discussing: why the cooldown nerf was necessary

because prior to the cooldown nerf, clan er medium lasers at 4 seconds, were just plain better than everything else for 1 ton. especially after the clan small pulse laser damage nerf.

there was no better weapon for 1 ton. and there arguably still isnt.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 05:28 PM.

[Muujig612]

Lightfoot, on 30 November 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

C ERLL has 300 meters more range, it does more damage, you take less damage. The only mech I would use HLL's on are mechs like the Shadow Cat which has few hardpoints. My Nova Cat's use no HLL's.

CERLL only does more damage than HLL at ranges people usually do not fight at, cause fights tend to happen within 500 meters. There is a reason why most Clan heavy mechs use HLLs with CERMLs rather than other large lasers.

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

7 seconds. Hot as balls. It's almost like one can fire other weapons during that time period, twice maybe even thrice. But 18 damage bruh! lol

MWO has cover to cool off.

Edited by Muujig612, 30 November 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

The IS ERML is only 90 extra meters, the Clan one is 130. The IS volleys are only 52 points and can only fire twice, and then they take far longer before they can fire again. This lack of output makes it such that AC boats can expose on them and trade out the same or better damage and brawlers can rush them without getting crippled before coming into range. This was even the case before it was nerfed. All the nerf did was make it difficult for the IS to trade against Clans since they rely on multiple smaller, faster hits to cancel off the larger single volley.

And, besides, the cMPL has the same practical range as the isERML, fires way faster, is way more heat efficient, and way more tonnage efficient for the bracket than massing 15 tons of large laser and five tons of Mediums to spit out the same 50-56 points.

The nerf was wrong and bad.

That's funny because I've watched IS pugs of good units just waltz in on the only favorable clan CW map, Boreal Vault and out-trade at range with decks set up for range and definitely out fire. All the while just moseying in with those ER-larges and er mediums under focused fire and just shooting from the hip like nobody's business. Funny because by that logic a 5 ERLL Nova Cat shouldn't lose to a 5 ERLL Grasshopper because of teh range and all those glorious DHS.

[Y E O N N E]

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 05:48 PM, said:

That's funny because I've watched IS pugs of good units just waltz in on the only favorable clan CW map, Boreal Vault and out-trade at range with decks set up for range and definitely out fire. All the while just moseying in with those ER-larges and er mediums under focused fire and just shooting from the hip like nobody's business. Funny because by that logic a 5 ERLL Nova Cat shouldn't lose to a 5 ERLL Grasshopper because of teh range and all those glorious DHS.

Oh come on, I expected better out of you. You know damn well that's:

A.) Quirks giving something like an ERLL Battlemaster a fighting chance against something like a MAD-IIC or SNV, and

B.) Tonnage disparity making the cost of fielding doubled-up Assaults nil for only one side, and it's hard to bring down three consecutive walls of 75-85 ton 'Mechs

C.) Spuds for the spud farm.

Don't use FW for judging tech balance. It's stupid and people who do it are stupid. Don't be stupid.



And, actually, a Nova Cat probably wouldn't lose. You go full expose and then just begin punishing the GHR each time it tries to come back up. You do have more range (TC2 vs no TC...unless you XL and get TC1, but then you are XL), you have dramatically more cooling (27 DHS vs 18), and you have a full set of JJs while the GHR has one or none. All the GHR has is some better geo and an insignificant quirk to CT structure. The first gets nullified by having to stare and the second gets nullified by the 10-point larger volley and the range. So, if you try to peak, you may lose on hardpoint locations. If you go full expose and punish him on every peak, he will lose on everything else. You have the heat capacity to full expose for several volleys, more than enough to cripple him.

Battlemasters are your real problem, because fielding two MAD-IIC leaves you with just enough room for an ACW and an ACH...which probably won't cut it against the Marauders and Warhammers the other side still has. Better to poptart the BLR to death or, if it's Boreal, kill them from scratch range (hooray seeing spawn to spawn when the gates are open!)

Bounty Hunter II, though, would probably eat a Nova Cat alive. Way better geo for staring, more range because it can mount a TC2 (yay no lower and hand actuators!), and it gets one more heatsink than the GHR.

[Y E O N N E]

panzer1b, on 30 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

The primary reason the ERML and HLL are so good is because they have the best tonnage to damage, all while retaining mid range ability. The ability to hit stuff at 400-600m far outweighs the benefit that even smaller weapons (like the ERSL) gain in DPS, dmg/ton, and burn time. Given that 90% of maps allow you to easily engage at said range, its a no-brainer to bring a battery of ERMLs boosted in alfa strike by your choice of heavy class lasers or even GRs and just poke at 500m or so, where your guns do max or near max damage, and anything short of an enemy with more ERML alfa strike can trade effectively.

Also, while im very doubtful of it ever being implemented, the ONLY surefire method to solve the laser meta would bve to implement something akin to alfa strike based ghost heat, and not weapon combo based. Make it so that firing any more then say 50 alfa within a set time period triggers a heat penalty, and any more then say 60 or so will be exponentially more punishing to the point that a 70 point alfa strike will automatically shut you down even on a very cold map. Its also a system that CANNOT be exploited reliably, since its capped at a damage number and not any particular gun combo (if there was no ghost heat thered be no good reason to not just bring 15 ERMLs and go crazy).

Smaller lasers don't gain anything in DPS over larger lasers...that's been a common complaint since the beginning.

You want to hear a very sad story? Even after the nerf, they still don't have an edge in DPS.

Want to hear an even sadder one? Even if they whacked the standard MedLas DPS to a point below 1, the SL and ERSL would still be garbage-tier because they have to fight against SRMs with inadequate damage.

The solution was never to nerf the isML and isERML if you wanted to see the SL, ERSL, and SPL used more. It was to buff those latter three, instead.

[Deathlike]

Am I wrong in thinking we're speaking to a/the Dartboard Whisperer?

Nicolai Malthus A concerned clanner wants to know.

[Khobai]

Quote

Smaller lasers don't gain anything in DPS over larger lasers...that's been a common complaint since the beginning.

why should smaller lasers have better dps than larger lasers? they weigh less. thats like saying smaller autocannons should outdps AC20s. bigger weapons should always outdps smaller weapons of the same type.

the point of small lasers is that they should be significantly more heat efficient than larger lasers. you should get more damage per point of heat. sustained dps is where small lasers should have the advantage, not burst dps. small lasers should also have significantly shorter beam duration than larger lasers.

the last thing we need is lights like the pirahna running around doing massive dps with 15 microlasers because someone thought it was a good idea to make the smallest lasers do the most dps. conversely, microlasers should be exceptionally heat efficient, and have very short beam durations.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 08:31 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

why should smaller lasers have better dps than larger lasers? they weigh less. that makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense because the range is also less. Risk goes way up when range is way less, especially because there are these things called SRMs and UAC/20s that you have to deal with once you dip to 300 meters that just dramatically outpace even the pre-nerf Medium lasers in damage output. The spread damage doesn't even register.

Quote

thats like saying AC2s should outdps AC20s. bigger weapons should outdps smaller weapons.

AC/2 out-range AC/20s dramatically. Tell me, what's the range on a Small laser? Now, what's the range on a Medium Laser?

Quote

the point of small lasers is that they should be significantly more heat efficient than larger lasers. you should get more damage per point of heat. thats where small lasers should excel. sustained dps is where small lasers should have the advantage, not burst dps. small lasers should also have significantly less beam duration than larger lasers.

Uh huh. And what use does that extremely-low-output/high-sustainability have when you are busy getting slammed by SRMs at that range?

[Khobai]

Quote

It makes perfect sense because the range is also less. Risk goes way up when range is way less, especially because there are these things called SRMs and UAC/20s that you have to deal with once you dip to 300 meters that just dramatically outpace even the pre-nerf Medium lasers in damage output. The spread damage doesn't even register.

no it doesnt make sense.

why would I ever take a short range AC20 for like 17-18 tons including ammo when I can just take a bunch of 0.5 ton lasers and completely outdps the AC20.

all that does is make taking bigger weapons completely stupid and uneconomical.

and it rewards mechs that have lots of hardpoints for boating tons of smaller weapons while punishing mechs with fewer hardpoints because the bigger weapons arnt as good

Quote

Uh huh. And what use does that extremely-low-output/high-sustainability have when you are busy getting slammed by SRMs at that range?

better directed damage vs the spread damage of SRMs.

and small lasers do significantly better damage per ton than SRMs

the issue is that IS mechs dont have enough energy hardpoints to really abuse that. a lot of the IS mechs need hardpoints updates so they have as many hardpoints as clan mechs.

having something like sized hardpoints and allowing people to cram two small weapons into one energy hardpoint might also be a solution

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 09:03 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

no it doesnt make sense.

why would I ever take a short range AC20 for like 17-18 tons including ammo when I can just take a bunch of 0.5 ton lasers and completely outdps the AC20.

Lower heat, being PPFLD, not needing half a dozen or more hardpoints...

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

better directed damage vs the spread damage of SRMs

A splat brawler is doing so much spread damage (for such better heat efficiency than lasers) that being "less directed" is a non-issue entirely.

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

the issue is that IS mechs dont have enough energy hardpoints to really abuse that

The Clans have several chassis capable of mass laser boating and not even that can save the crappy ER Micro and Micro Pulse. The IS [ER]SL wouldn't fare much better even if we got mechs like the Black Hawk KU.

Edited by FupDup, 30 November 2017 - 09:02 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

A splat brawler is doing so much spread damage (for such better heat efficiency than lasers) that being "less directed" is a non-issue entirely.

well you shouldnt be going near a splat brawler with that many srms in a light mech armed with only small lasers in the first place.

the point of small lasers should be mostly for precision work like legging and backshots. not for going toe to toe with srm brawlers lol.

Quote

The Clans have several chassis capable of mass laser boating and not even that can save the crappy ER Micro and Micro Pulse. The IS [ER]SL wouldn't fare much better even if we got mechs like the Black Hawk KU.

yeah because clan small lasers have ghost heat which is stupid

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 09:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

yeah because clan small lasers have ghost heat which is stupid

I said Clan micros, not Clan smalls.

And frankly, removing Spooky Heat from micros wouldn't make them suddenly usable.

Edited by FupDup, 30 November 2017 - 09:06 PM.