148 replies to this topic

[w0qj]

As a Dire Wolf pilot, I can attest that Dire Wolf has its own set of issues to handle, badly needs teamwork to protect Dire Wolf, and I wish that DWF-C player can take out that 2ton JumpJet from CT torso! Badly need that 2ton weight for more ammo, or even DHS.

UAC10's+Lasers (105 Alpha with double tap)
~Admittedly enough ammo, but still runs far too hot for my taste.
~Once you Alpha, long time before mech is cool enough for another Alpha, enemy can come close to you and overwhelm you, hence need teamwork to keep enemy away.

Gauss+Lasers (91 alpha)
~Not enough ammo to justify 2x Gauss weight! (Unless you are an Elite who does not miss Gauss shots!)
~There swap out DHS for more ammo (and it runs even hotter). Again, build runs too hot for my taste.

Heavy Money, on 14 November 2021 - 03:22 PM, said:

They are probably referring to stuff like these Direwolf builds:

UAC10's+Lasers (105 Alpha with double tap): dwf-c
Gauss+Lasers (91 alpha): dwf-c

There's also some other uac dakka builds that can get over 100 alpha iirc.

Generally though, alphas that high are rare. But the general idea that clans can get some very high alpha numbers due to their laser vomit is correct. IS can't get anywhere near as high. Instead, IS has the highest PPFLD (pin point, front loaded damage) alphas from stuff like AC20+Snubs, or the various new 50dmg PPFLD snipers. Clan Alphas are higher on paper, but are often coming with burn times well over a second long, and/or gauss mixed with lasers which is difficult to time well.

Edited by w0qj, 15 November 2021 - 06:17 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Balance right now seems pretty good to me, I play lots of FP and as far as I can see we win about the same amount against the same opponents regardless of which side we're on. I also feel like balance is improving thanks to the Cauldron changes.

If there is a difference it might be that IS is a bit more swingy and build dependent, it's harder to carry weak players on the IS side because bad IS mechs/builds are worse than bad Clan mechs/builds. So if we're in a small group I feel like being Clan is safer because we might have to carry a lot of baddies, and then at least they won't be running stock IS mechs with single heatsinks and so on. Clan is also more forgiving when you bring the wrong dropdeck and things like that, I feel like you need more mechs and dropdecks to be IS in FP.

Now the sides being balanced isn't the same as being balanced in a way that I like. I don't like balancing being so much about IS having quirks to offset weaker equipment. For example I don't like that cXL is strictly better than both ISXL and LFE, it should be about assymetrical pros and cons like with IS vs Clan UACs. IMO for every piece of equipment if you imagine having a mixtech mech there should be an argument for both the IS and the Clan version, just like you'd sometimes prefer an IS LPL over a Clan LPL you should sometimes want an LFE over a cXL and so on. But at this point I've accepted that this quirk based balancing is how it's gonna be, and balancing by quirks if done by competent players like the cauldron is good enough for me.

This balancing also means it's opaque to new players, on paper clan mechs just look much stronger but it is what it is.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 November 2021 - 07:05 AM.

[Curccu]

pbiggz, on 15 November 2021 - 05:46 AM, said:

uh...

yes it does?

if you just tap someone with a heavy laser you'll do a fraction of the total alpha. If you drag your dakka across somebody's face you'll only do part of your alpha to each component. Clan ER PPCs spread *no matter how accurate you are*.

Are you just not aware of this or is this deliberate?

Just one of the reasons why T4

[Curccu]

w0qj, on 15 November 2021 - 06:15 AM, said:

Gauss+Lasers (91 alpha)
~Not enough ammo to justify 2x Gauss weight! (Unless you are an Elite who does not miss Gauss shots!)
~There swap out DHS for more ammo (and it runs even hotter). Again, build runs too hot for my taste.

Maybe pick more typical dwf-prime then, plenty of ammo. Too hot? if you are close to enemy you can skip ERLLs from alpha shot, still 69 dmg alpha and you can do that more than 7 times a row without skilltree or coolshot.
...Probably smarter to alpha all of that and IF you get pushed slam coolshot and not use ERLL at that point unless it ensures the kill.

[pbiggz]

Curccu, on 15 November 2021 - 07:36 AM, said:

Maybe pick more typical dwf-prime then, plenty of ammo. Too hot? if you are close to enemy you can skip ERLLs from alpha shot, still 69 dmg alpha and you can do that more than 7 times a row without skilltree or coolshot.
...Probably smarter to alpha all of that and IF you get pushed slam coolshot and not use ERLL at that point unless it ensures the kill.

I think the core of this discussion is that clans can achieve extraordinarily high alpha numbers on paper but not in practice.

In practice, your pin point alpha with clan weapons is rarely much higher than inner sphere pinpoints, and is often lower than IS weapons. However with good gunnery skills and trigger discipline, (and if your target isn't moving too quick), you can melt people's faces off pretty quick.

They're different weapons that aim and handle differently, do damage differently, look and feel and sound different and excel at different things. That's the point. That's how they're balanced. It's why they kind of work. The IS get a big selection of precise unitaskers, the clans get a smaller selection of powerful multitaskers.

[pattonesque]

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 05:38 AM, said:

Doesn't really matter about burn times when you only have to hit someone once.

how have you played this game for this long and are this wrong about a fundamental aspect of how these weapons work?

[Davegt27]

pattonesque, on 15 November 2021 - 08:24 AM, said:

how have you played this game for this long and are this wrong about a fundamental aspect of how these weapons work?

you might be misunderstanding things

if you can kill a Mech with one shot (or alpha) wouldn't that be better then taking 5 trigger pulls to kill a mech ??

that is the illusion of the clans

on paper you will be saying my 84 alpha medium Clan mech will wreck face
and then you go in game and it does not work that way

that is why I say on paper the clans are way more powerful

bottom line is the Clans should be more powerful but they are not

[pattonesque]

Davegt27, on 15 November 2021 - 09:33 AM, said:

you might be misunderstanding things

if you can kill a Mech with one shot (or alpha) wouldn't that be better then taking 5 trigger pulls to kill a mech ??

that is the illusion of the clans

on paper you will be saying my 84 alpha medium Clan mech will wreck face
and then you go in game and it does not work that way

that is why I say on paper the clans are way more powerful

bottom line is the Clans should be more powerful but they are not

I'm not replying to you and frankly have zero idea what you're talking about. I'm asking how the dude I specifically quoted doesn't know that laser duration is an incredibly important consideration.

[GoodTry]

It seems pretty clear to me that they are balanced, as you see a lot of both sides being played in the game. If one side were better than the other, you wouldn't see both being played.

[Heavy Money]

w0qj, on 15 November 2021 - 06:15 AM, said:

As a Dire Wolf pilot, I can attest that Dire Wolf has its own set of issues to handle, badly needs teamwork to protect Dire Wolf, and I wish that DWF-C player can take out that 2ton JumpJet from CT torso! Badly need that 2ton weight for more ammo, or even DHS.

UAC10's+Lasers (105 Alpha with double tap)
~Admittedly enough ammo, but still runs far too hot for my taste.
~Once you Alpha, long time before mech is cool enough for another Alpha, enemy can come close to you and overwhelm you, hence need teamwork to keep enemy away.

Gauss+Lasers (91 alpha)
~Not enough ammo to justify 2x Gauss weight! (Unless you are an Elite who does not miss Gauss shots!)
~There swap out DHS for more ammo (and it runs even hotter). Again, build runs too hot for my taste.

Yup, it certainly does. Its worth noting that these high alpha direwolf builds are not considered to be all that good. Direwolf is best known for its AC2 boating, which is super low alpha damage (but high dps at long range.) The dire whale is so slow and big and has such vulnerable hitboxes that even with crazy alpha volleys like this, it tends to just die. Lots of assault builds that look far less impressive when glancing at mech lab stats are far, far better (such as UAC Dakka, 4xLB10Xs, UACs+ERPPCs, etc).

People who are skeptical on these issues shouldn't get bogged down by deceptive mech lab stats or build theory that can miss factors. Look at what actually gets played at high tiers, and what actually performs well in game. You can check out grimmechs tier lists or comp rosters, whatever. And you will see a fair representation of both factions.

[PocketYoda]

pattonesque, on 15 November 2021 - 09:45 AM, said:

I'm not replying to you and frankly have zero idea what you're talking about. I'm asking how the dude I specifically quoted doesn't know that laser duration is an incredibly important consideration.

You are the misinformed or maybe spread the misinformation on purpose to justify your broken builds.. Any hellbringer or Supernova laser boat pilot can one shot a light to heavy mech in one or two alphas and even some Assaults..

Bullcrap more why don't you, you people are so full of yourselves and wrong its disgusting to read..

[justcallme A S H]

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

Any hellbringer or Supernova laser boat pilot can one shot

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

in one or two alphas

If it takes two shots, how is it 'one shot', exactly?

A HBR or SNV Alphas are around ~68-72pts of damage for the most common builds. That does not 1-shot anything above a light mech. Further to that the only way to 1-shot said light is if it is standing still. A 70pt Alpah to kill a...

• Medium - Impossible.
  
• Heavy / Assault - Absolutely impossible.

You continually make no sense, contradict yourself and spread misinformation. Please just stop.

[pattonesque]

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

You are the misinformed or maybe spread the misinformation on purpose to justify your broken builds.. Any hellbringer or Supernova laser boat pilot can one shot a light to heavy mech in one or two alphas and even some Assaults..

Bullcrap more why don't you, you people are so full of yourselves and wrong its disgusting to read..

I bet this happens to you a lot because you stand still and don't twist (and before you say you do -- you absolutely do not), but a CERLL from a Supernova takes more than a full second to finish its burn. A HLL from a Hellbringer takes almost a second and a half to do the same. Anyone halfway competent player can twist off that damage effectively. This is why, as I've said before and you continue to refuse to understand, duration is important. The only way you get one-shot in a light this way is if you get caught flat-footed and don't react by twisting.

This 100 percent happens to you all the time.

[Heavy Money]

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

one shot

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

in one or two alphas

[martian]

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

You are the misinformed or maybe spread the misinformation on purpose to justify your broken builds.. Any hellbringer or Supernova laser boat pilot can one shot a light to heavy mech in one or two alphas and even some Assaults..
...

I am afraid that this is not so easy.

First, typical Hellbringer loadouts offer some 60-70 points of firepower (sometimes less, sometimes more). The more lasers you put on Hellbringer, the less weight and room you have to actually cool their waste heat.

Second, the higher firepower your Hellbringer is supposed to have, the higher probability is that you will have to use Heavy Lasers. Heavy Large laser has 1.45 s duration, Heavy Medium laser has 1.25 s duration. That's quite a long duration. Clan ER Larges and ER Medium have quite long burn times too.

Third, to kill an enemy 'Mech, you must keep all those lasers on one section of that enemy 'Mech to burn through all its armor and internal structure.

There are two possible scenarios:
a) Stupid or surprised enemies stand still.
Unfortunately, even then there is a lot of quirked armor and structure for your lasers to vaporize. For example, the enemy Orion has the CT protection of some 115 points of quirked armor AND 46 points of internal structure. That is 161 points total. And we are talking about unskilled 'Mechs here - that Orion's armor and structure can be boosted with unlocked skill nodes even further ... Even if a few points of the Orion's armor go to its rear torso, the Hellbringer would still not kill the Orion with one alpha strike. Killing the skilled up Orion with two alphas would not be so easy either for the Hellbringer.

b ) Actual competent enemies move.
They can walk, run, jump or at least torso twist. All these things spread the damage from your Hellbringer's lasers across their 'Mechs. The long burn of Clan Heavy Lasers means that if you move your long burning lasers from one side of an enemy 'Mech to another (as it often happens), each section takes some 10-15 points of damage (and some damage probably misses the enemy 'Mech altogether). The majority of MWO 'Mechs can withstand such unconcentrated damage.

Actual enemies can use that 1.45 s burn time of Hellbringer's lasers to step back behind terrain or some building, so their 'Mechs do not take the full damage.

I have used all these examples to illustrate, why the duration ("the burn time") of the laser beam is so important in MechWarrior Online.

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

...
Bullcrap more why don't you, you people are so full of yourselves and wrong its disgusting to read..

There is no need to be angry. This thread has posts from some very competent Tier 1 players. Perhaps it would be a good idea to listen to them.


Hellbringer laser boat must be used wisely. It has some strong suits and some limitations.



The Hellbringer is a good 'Mech, but it is no almighty machine.

[caravann]

The clan heavy small laser is one of the most powerful clan lasers

When the devs realize, oh crap. They can stack this thing. They added roadblocks in shape of ghost heating.

The pulse lasers has a higher stacking without ghost heating. But it only means that pulse lasers is used as fodders.

Ermicro need a ridiculous amount of stacking to be worth the lost weapons when shot upon.

Clan has quite bad ultra cannons, IS has quite superior UAC who easily able to be stacked with large pulse

IS has MRM.

Clan has LRM who look nice in theory but the LRM throttle down at zero ranges is no better than rocket launcher

[Curccu]

caravann, on 16 November 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

The clan heavy small laser is one of the most powerful clan lasers
When the devs realize, oh crap. They can stack this thing. They added roadblocks in shape of ghost heating.
The pulse lasers has a higher stacking without ghost heating. But it only means that pulse lasers is used as fodders.
Ermicro need a ridiculous amount of stacking to be worth the lost weapons when shot upon.

I use heavy small laser only in PIR-1 where it syncs pretty well with MGs otherwise not that awesome because long burn time and long cooldown and range is pretty bad also.
- SL, µPL, (c)(i)SPL have as good or better DPS as HSL
- Shares worst damage per heat(1.3) with cERSL all other micros and small lasers have better or very significantly better DPH
- and yes range is same as µPL, all other micro/small weapons have better range.

caravann, on 16 November 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

Clan has quite bad ultra cannons, IS has quite superior UAC who easily able to be stacked with large pulse

I think if IS mechs could use cUACs... most of the would, just so much smaller and lighter and some with extra range. more shells in burst doesn't make them that much worse IMO.
for example cUAC20 is 3 tons lighter and 2 slots smaller and has even better range that IS with same damage/cd/heat counterpart that it's just simply better IMO.

caravann, on 16 November 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

Clan has LRM who look nice in theory but the LRM throttle down at zero ranges is no better than rocket launcher

Here I have to agree I don't like clan lurms, have to have a looot of them to get through AMS.

[pbiggz]

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

one shot

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

one or two alphas

[feeWAIVER]

You nerds are arguing semantics, but dude has a point.
A hellbringer or ebon jag can absolutely drop an XL IS mech in under 2 alphas.
Now compound that with 11 other guys who focus fire.

[YueFei]

feeWAIVER, on 16 November 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

You nerds are arguing semantics, but dude has a point.

No he doesn't. It's so divorced from reality that you may as well argue about spherical cows in a vacuum.

Quote

A hellbringer or ebon jag can absolutely drop an XL IS mech in under 2 alphas.

And if that happens, the IS XL mech pilot deserved it. Because you absolutely have the opportunity and ability to twist off / stutter-step the damage. I've already shown numerous times mathematically that mech agility in MWO is high enough to do this (especially after Cauldron agility buffs), because large enough lateral shifts will occur faster than human reaction times. And, to back up my theory-crafting, we need only observe Competitive play, where the best players and best marksmen don't end every match with drilled out CTs or XL-checked with nothing else scratched on their mechs.

If you get one/two-shot and XL-checked? It happens to all of us. The difference is that some of us cry about it and bleat excuses, while others laugh at their own stupidity and try to learn from it so we don't make the same mistake.

Quote

Now compound that with 11 other guys who focus fire.

If you're getting focus-fired by 11 other guys, that's purely your problem, not a game design issue. Despite all the jokes about people wanting more hand-holding from the Cauldron, there's only so much they can do for you. If you're going to pay no attention to enemy lanes of fire and skyline yourself so badly that all 12 enemies can shoot at you, you deserve to die quickly.

Edited by YueFei, 16 November 2021 - 10:07 AM.