805 replies to this topic

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

1. You still haven't refuted my points that the IS were the aggressors.

2. Your attempt to deflect doesn't change the fact that even IF I confirm what the books say (I think I have the Betrayal of Ideals, so I'll double check) it still wouldn't change the fact that the use of a nuclear device is what prompted the action taken against Clan Wolverine which the people who wrote the Battletech book i quoted from, stated. This further backs ME up in my claim that the Clans view such utter destruction with disdain.

Why do you keep punching yourself?

I didn't see the point in dignifying it with a refutation because it's a ludicrous assertion in the given context. The Clans invaded the Inner Sphere in 3050 making them aggressors against the IS worlds therein. When you invade someone, you are the aggressor.

And this is why nobody enjoys talking to Clan stans.

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 09 July 2025 - 03:51 PM, said:

I didn't see the point in dignifying it with a refutation because it's a ludicrous assertion in the given context.

Translation - My points were countered with the source material and I have no rebuttal.

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 09 July 2025 - 03:51 PM, said:

And this is why nobody enjoys talking to Clan stans.

Translation - And this is why no IS stans enjoy talking to Clan supporters who do their research.

Thank you, have a nice day.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

It's like playing chess with a pigeon. I start play with a King's Pawn opening and the pigeon knocks over the pieces, poops on the board and struts around like he won

[Jaroth Corbett]

If that's what you want to call making a claim then backing it up using the source material by the people who made the universe you're talking about.....sure whatever helps you sleep at night buddy. Your name suits you.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 09 July 2025 - 04:16 PM.

[KursedVixen]

https://www.sarna.ne...eration_ROSEBUD

ya'll forgot about comstar's scheming behind the curtains.

[Void Angel]

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 08:59 AM, said:

Clans were the aggressors? You think the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere were living in peace singing kumbaya around the camp fire and the Clans showed up screaming, 'GET REKT!".

Uh, that was the EXACT attitude of the Clans, behind all their rhetoric - and I don't think you know what "aggressor" means.

You're engaging in faulty reasoning - the occasional atrocities (remember, you're listing a handful of examples from over 250 years of near-constant warfare, in an area encompassing over 1800 inhabited worlds) committed by the Inner Sphere don't justify the Clans' naked aggression. The Inner Sphere was finally settling into stability; the Federated Commonwealth simply had the resources and military skill to overpower the rest of the Great Houses, so the end of the Succession Wars was in sight - until the Clans came howling out of the night to wreck the peace with a massive invasion. The Clans are indisputably the aggressors; they didn't even have the fig leaf of interfering in an active conflict. Their entire culture and history (what the censors let them remember) has been geared toward this war, Wardens notwithstanding. Naked, might-makes-right aggression is the heart and soul of the Clans - and they damn well were the aggressors in the Clan invasion.

And really, the Clans' ritualistic rules of warfare lasted just about as long as any ritualistic warfare practice in history - exactly as long as it took to run into people who didn't play the game. The Ares Accords are about more than just "not nuking people;" they're about limiting damage to infrastructure - the Clans don't have the same proscriptions. Certainly they hate wasting "resources," by which they mean civilian bystanders and other property of the warrior caste. But at the end of the day they know they can build it all back. If they had conquered the Inner Sphere, the fraying of zellbrigen you can see in their initial conflicts with the Inner Sphere would have accelerated - they were quite willing to have fights in 'mech factories and cities when the Inner Sphere set up defenses in those locations. All the while sneering at the "barbarians" with a hefty helping of "look what you made me do." Their frustration with the civilian population's refusal to surrender their children and accept their place as third-class serfs would have boiled over eventually - and the results of that in a society that uses force to resolve matters of fact and justice aren't hard to comprehend. The Clans are already one genocidal epiphany away from devising final solutions to the "Freebirth problem;" civil disobedience and insurgency are practically guaranteed to push them over the edge.

Yet all of this is beside the point; You've discredited yourself far better than I could ever do, by insisting that the Clans - who launched an invasion that they had prepared for centuries against a population that didn't know they still existed - are somehow not the aggressors in the war they started without cause! That's just insanely silly. You've confused being able to copy-paste cherry-picked quotations for knowing what you're talking about - and it shows.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 July 2025 - 11:41 AM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 09 July 2025 - 10:17 AM, said:

you forgot about Katherine steiner-Davion totally ripping apart a combined house of Davion and Steiner and starting another war just because she didn't like her brother.... yeah sure the great houses are so peaceful.... isn't the whole reason of kerensky leaving to deprive the Great houses of some of the greatest military hardware avalible?So that they can't blow each other back to the stone age even faster?

The SLDF leaving the inner sphere didn't even make anyone ask "Why'd they leave" Instead it was oh let's just blast each other like normal now that the SLDF isn't around to stop us or bother the periphery we can just blast ourselves back to the stone age.


He went to 'college' and a class there about 'politics' he must be correct, right?

Nix, sweety - do you want another forum spanking? Because this is how you get another forum spanking - and you're still holding your bottom and sulking from the last one. No one said the Great Houses were, well, great. They plunged all of known civilization into centuries of warfare for the sake of pride and power. Some of them would be better to live under than others, but all are at fault - none of that changes the simple fact that the Clans are the ones who attacked the Inner Sphere, not the other way around.

In English, sane people call that "being the aggressor," and none of your obvious disdain for education and knowledge can change that, no matter how much you want the lie to be true.

[Jaroth Corbett]

No YOU missed the point and it shows. Like I was explaining, the picture was being painted of a peaceful Inner Sphere where the Great Houses all got along and there was NO aggression and the Clans just came and overturned the apple cart by violently attacking these pacifist states. I showed, using the source material, that it was in fact the opposite and that there was war, mayhem, misery, slaughter on an epic scale, even the use of WMDs where civilians/non-combatants were ROUTINELY killed/injured and peace was far removed. There is nothing faulty about that and again, personal opinions do not matter to me. The people who created the universe and wrote the books said so and I will go along with them.

And while I have you here, let me offer a rebuttal to this:

Void Angel, on 09 July 2025 - 05:18 AM, said:

He murdered his father's dream, and buried it with his principles.

You seem to have missed the part where the SLDF tore itself apart in a brutal civil war and Nicholas realized that the old ways is what made his father leave the IS in the first place and he reorganized the remaining people into the Clans. Nicholas didn't murder his father's dream. The squabbling Great Houses did that. The source material says so. Let me kill two birds with one stone.

Spoiler

Grave Covenant page 45

There you have it. Further confirmation it was the Great Houses that caused the SLDF to collapse on BOTH occasions AND confirmation that the Inner Sphere wasn't an aggression free conglomerate of sunshine and rainbows but death and destruction.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 10 July 2025 - 07:18 AM, said:

No YOU missed the point and it shows. Like I was explaining, the picture was being painted of a peaceful Inner Sphere where the Great Houses all got along and there was NO aggression and the Clans just came and overturned the apple cart by violently attacking these pacifist states. I showed, using the source material, that it was in fact the opposite and that there was war, mayhem, misery, slaughter on an epic scale, even the use of WMDs where civilians/non-combatants were ROUTINELY killed/injured and peace was far removed. There is nothing faulty about that and again, personal opinions do not matter to me. The people who created the universe and wrote the books said so and I will go along with them.

And while I have you here, let me offer a rebuttal to this:



You seem to have missed the part where the SLDF tore itself apart in a brutal civil war and Nicholas realized that the old ways is what made his father leave the IS in the first place and he reorganized the remaining people into the Clans. Nicholas didn't murder his father's dream. The squabbling Great Houses did that. The source material says so. Let me kill two birds with one stone.

Spoiler

Grave Covenant page 45

There you have it. Further confirmation it was the Great Houses that caused the SLDF to collapse on BOTH occasions AND confirmation that the Inner Sphere wasn't an aggression free conglomerate of sunshine and rainbows but death and destruction.

On a similar note was it not Comstar who actually started the clan invasion? or are the main cause for it to start during 3050? Despite Smoke Jaguar twisting the truth, had Comstar not randomly shown up the Jaguars would haved had no ammunition or proof to push the Grand council towards approving the invasion?

Edited by KursedVixen, 10 July 2025 - 07:54 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Well kinda. Leo Showers used the Outbound Light to his advantage yes that is true but the Crusaders wanted to reclaim Terra and re-establish the Star League from the jump. That is what they believe the Clans were created for, however the Wardens had been able to block the Crusaders during voting. Wolf's Dragoons was essentially a compromise to gather data and get a better understanding of the IS as a whole. When the Outbound Light turned up, Leo Showers was able to convince the Clans that while the Wardens wanted to leave the IS to their own devices, the ship was the vanguard of an invasion by the IS. The go-vote was then given.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 10 July 2025 - 07:56 AM, said:

Well kinda. Leo Showers used the Outbound Light to his advantage yes that is true but the Crusaders wanted to reclaim Terra and re-establish the Star League from the jump. That is what they believe the Clans were created for, however the Wardens had been able to block the Crusaders during voting. Wolf's Dragoons was essentially a compromise to gather data and get a better understanding of the IS as a whole. When the Outbound Light turned up, Leo Showers was able to convince the Clans that while the Wardens wanted to leave the IS to their own devices, the ship was the vanguard of an invasion by the IS. The go-vote was then given.

So the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak...

[Jaroth Corbett]

Yes. Clan Wolf did oppose the vote and a Trial of Refusal was called but they lost and so the plans went ahead.

[Void Angel]

See, now this is just embarrassing - you think that an Explorer Corps ship stumbling on a Clanner homeworld means that Comstar started the war? That's like saying a mugging victim started the mugging by walking by the mugger.

No amount of claiming victory while citing parts of novels that don't prove what you're citing them to prove is going to make the Inner Sphere the aggressors in the Clan invasion. You can't blame the Great Houses for the Exodus Civil War, when the Houses had no influence over people who were light-years away! That's insane, and you should feel silly. The Clans attacked people who weren't even their neighbors; people who had never fired a shot at them and didn't even know they were alive. Waters played on their prejudices and racism, but that was only the tipping point that broke the Warden/Crusader deadlock. They're still an oppressive culture based on warfare with little regard for human life except as it benefits the Clan, one of the reasons that the Wardens maneuvered to send Wolf's Dragoons into the Inner Sphere to prepare (and eventually warn) them was that popular opinion was falling away from them.

Nicholas in no way fulfilled Kerensky's dream of a peaceful, restored Star League. He was not true to Kerensky's principles of justice and the rule of law. Instead he perverted those ideals into a grim mockery and forcibly conquered the SLDF remnants into an enforced culture where might literally does make right. His enforcement of that order was so brutal that one of the Clans who helped him win tried to leave and was deliberately murdered for it; another conducted internal pogroms to quell dissent.

Don't think your straw man/mot-and-bailey combo will work here, either. No one said that the Inner Sphere was "an aggression free [sic] conglomerate of sunshine and rainbows." No one "painted a picture" of it; that's a lie you made up. But you're also trying to equivocate here: "being historically aggressive toward each other" does not make them "the aggressor" in the Clan invasion. The very claim is embarrassingly moronic. The aggressor is the party that starts the conflict - and no one started that invasion but the Clans.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 10 July 2025 - 08:39 AM, said:

See, now this is just embarrassing - you think that an Explorer Corps ship stumbling on a Clanner homeworld means that Comstar started the war? That's like saying a mugging victim started the mugging by walking by the mugger.

No amount of claiming victory while citing parts of novels that don't prove what you're citing them to prove is going to make the Inner Sphere the aggressors in the Clan invasion. You can't blame the Great Houses for the Exodus Civil War, when the Houses had no influence over people who were light-years away! That's insane, and you should feel silly. The Clans attacked people who weren't even their neighbors; people who had never fired a shot at them and didn't even know they were alive. Waters played on their prejudices and racism, but that was only the tipping point that broke the Warden/Crusader deadlock. They're still an oppressive culture based on warfare with little regard for human life except as it benefits the Clan, one of the reasons that the Wardens maneuvered to send Wolf's Dragoons into the Inner Sphere to prepare (and eventually warn) them was that popular opinion was falling away from them.

Nicholas in no way fulfilled Kerensky's dream of a peaceful, restored Star League. He was not true to Kerensky's principles of justice and the rule of law. Instead he perverted those ideals into a grim mockery and forcibly conquered the SLDF remnants into an enforced culture where might literally does make right. His enforcement of that order was so brutal that one of the Clans who helped him win tried to leave and was deliberately murdered for it; another conducted internal pogroms to quell dissent.

Don't think your straw man/mot-and-bailey combo will work here, either. No one said that the Inner Sphere was "an aggression free [sic] conglomerate of sunshine and rainbows." No one "painted a picture" of it; that's a lie you made up. But you're also trying to equivocate here: "being historically aggressive toward each other" does not make them "the aggressor" in the Clan invasion. The very claim is embarrassingly moronic. The aggressor is the party that starts the conflict - and no one started that invasion but the Clans.

The whole of the pentagon wars were because people still had house loyaties that is what caused the infighting, Nicholas saught to remove those house loyalties, that had torn the pentagon worlds apart in another succession wars like conflict... weather you like it or not those loyalties to the houses they left did have an effect on them..

You say you studied politics, yet you completely ignore them for this example instead putting your own bias into it to push for your own agenda.

And actually you have been pushing that the Inner sphere was aggressor free just at the time of the invasion, or you at least implied that.

Inadvertatly weather intended or not the Explorer Corps did start the invasion, had they minded their own buisiness and stayed out of clan space, the Smoke Jaguar would have had no leverage to push for the invasion to begin, so indirectly, yes the Explorer Corps did start the Invasion at the timeframe of 3050 and who knows what other machinations of Comstar caused conflict in the sphere, after the Star league left, during the Sucession wars.

Edited by KursedVixen, 10 July 2025 - 09:41 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Void Angel, on 10 July 2025 - 08:39 AM, said:

See, now this is just embarrassing - you think that an Explorer Corps ship stumbling on a Clanner homeworld means that Comstar started the war? That's like saying a mugging victim started the mugging by walking by the mugger.

First of all calm down. She was asking a question. No need to jump down her throat like that. People can ask questions.

Void Angel, on 10 July 2025 - 08:39 AM, said:

No amount of claiming victory while citing parts of novels that don't prove what you're citing them to prove is going to make the Inner Sphere the aggressors in the Clan invasion. You can't blame the Great Houses for the Exodus Civil War, when the Houses had no influence over people who were light-years away! That's insane, and you should feel silly.

I can claim victory because I made my claim and backed it up with the source material. If you don't like that, that's your problem. If that doesn't fit your narrative, that's your problem. If you have a comprehension issue, that's your problem. I stand on the source material. Whatever the people who wrote the books says stands. Your opinions and views are irrelevant.

How the civil war started:

Spoiler

This led to the DeChevilier massacre and then things spiraled out of control from there. That's how we get to:

Spoiler

I've let the personal insults slide so far. Don't push it.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 10 July 2025 - 09:16 AM.

[KursedVixen]

I seem to recall something about the fourth Succession wars about to begin just as the invasion began, am I correct on that? or was it a non-existant fith war that was about to begin?

Edited by KursedVixen, 10 July 2025 - 09:45 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

No. The Fourth Succession war ended in January 3030.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 10 July 2025 - 09:46 AM, said:

No. The Fourth Succession war ended in January 3030.

it was a possible fifth, that never happened due to the clan invasion...

Edited by KursedVixen, 10 July 2025 - 10:02 AM.

[Void Angel]

Just because the SLDF exiles fractured along cultural lines, it does not mean that the people they left light years away were responsible. Your claim that not only is this the case, but that it also makes the Inner Sphere of 3050 the attacking party is literally insane. You might just as rationally insist that you are a poached egg. You are - as is starting to seem typical for you - conflating different terms and arguing with whichever definition suits your fancy. It's not a "personal insult" to tell you that's asinine. If you want your opinions to be respected, don't jeer at people while misrepresenting their arguments and trying to shoehorn quotes you don't understand into arguments that are obviously incorrect to any sane person.

You have yet to back up your crazy claim with any of the paragraphs you've copy-pasted from a PDF library somewhere. Nicholas Kerensky's propaganda speech blaming the Great Houses for his exiles' conflicts isn't anything more than that - a propaganda speech setting up his brutal plans for forced cultural assimilation. He forcibly took people's culture away, and when some of them objected, he deliberately orchestrated their mass murder. Was the Inner Sphere's culture inherently violent and greedy, as Nicky claims? Or did the austere conditions on the barely-habitable and unimproved pentagon colony worlds cause people tensions that erupted along pre-existing cutural lines? We can only speculate, because Nicholas crushed those cultures under his jackbooted heel, and pressed them into the Clans at bayonette-point.

As for you, Vix, in no way have I implied that the Inner Sphere was "aggressor-free." What I said was that the Federated Commonwealth was poised to establish its hegemony over the Inner Sphere, and all Comstar's meddling would do was slow that down. It's certainly possible that the Federated Commonwealth would have failed in their aims of conquest - in fact, it's thematically certain, but we're not talking genre here - but that's all purely conjecture. What's not conjecture is that a Star Power poised to forcibly subjugate its peers - as I pointed out - is not an "agression-free" political entity.

Like your new best bud, you just made that up, and if you keep oninsisting on the lie - to me, about what I said, that's written on the fracking page, I'm going to keep objecting.

You both are reasoning on a sort of insane binary: if your opponent disagrees with you on any major point, they must be disputing every aspect of your argument - so if you can "prove" any aspect of your thesis, they must be entirely wrong in all of their reasoning, too! That's not how sanity works.

The Clans hid in the woods sharpening their knives, then broke into their neighbors' house, beat everyone onto the floor, and claimed everything inside was theirs by "right.". You're pointing to the bleeding victims on the floor and saying, "they started it!"

[Jaroth Corbett]

I think it was mostly border skirmishes at that point IIRC. I'd have to re-read some books to verify though. There was the War of 3039 but that didn't even last a whole year.