949 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

@OP Your story reminds me of a PUG match I played in the Battle of Tukkiyad II. We were getting trounced by an Inner Sphere 12 man. We decided to storm the opposite gate since we couldn't beat their positioning at the first gate. Meanwhile they all decided to spawn-camp us and left the orbital gun undefended and they couldn't get back in time.

CW needs a second game-type that does not have attack/defend map design. Just a normal map with a single objective for both teams. PUGs could handle 12 mans better. MWO has removed tactical weapons with too many nerfs so expecting PUG players to then use map based tactics with lasers-only vs 12-mans is going to fail.

I just wanted to add that the maze defend map is hard for PUGs to beat because they don't see the focus-fire points and this is where the 12-mans will be waiting. Again, tactical weapons like working LRMs go a long way to balancing focus-fire point tactics and creates more fluid gameplay.

Edited by Lightfoot, 03 January 2016 - 05:19 AM.

[Chemie]

Kjudoon, on 02 January 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

Then kill omega and end the round if you're not trolling. .....

Sadly, PGI rewards would make that a waste of time. Either for tournie qualifications or CBills. and CB are the only real reason to be playing...so 40+ kills are required. Plus, 75% of the time, the game mode does not allow for this (defend attack, and both sides of counter attack)

[ReguIus]

IMO CW's biggest problem is the scale. It's way too big in proportion to the player base currently. When you have 10 factions fighting each other all over the map, it just stretches your ranks too thin and you end up with lots of pugs and just a handful of actual units fighting over territory.

I'd love to see PGI trying to make CW more campaign based. So basically this means that you'd get the "Classic BT" 3025 campaign (low tech, IS only). A second could be 3049 or something (Lostech available, IS only).

Then there's IS vs. Clan. I'd jump the timeline to something like 3060-ish so that the technological gap between IS and Clans can actually be closed with MORE WEAPONS, UPGRADES AND MECHS (=what the game *really* needs atm) IS and Clans are both factions in their own right. I would avoid further differentiation to prevent the current situation where there are simply too many fronts for too few people to play on.

Again, CW needs to be more focused and needs campaigns with different themes to keep the gameplay fresh and interesting.

[spectralthundr]

Ted Wayz, on 01 January 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

What percent of the community uses VOIP and why would you create a mode that requires it to be successful? Especially in a free to play game. Especially in one that just opened itself up to a bunch of new players through Steam. Especially when it would be so easy for it to be accessible to all.

Face it, VOIP is used as much as common sense. Do you rely on people using common sense IRL? Is common sense a requirement or do people somehow manage to get by without it?

The game has it built right the hell into it, there's really no excuse. If you refuse to play as a team in a team based game, especially in CW where most of the larger coordinated groups play that isn't on PGI, it's on you. The tools are there IN THE GAME already use them or get over it.

[Leggin Ho]

Easier to just whine and scream how unfair it is then to use the tools made into the game for them.

If folks don't want to play as a team play the pug que, if folks don't want to be spawn camped, GET OUT OF SPAWN and stop trying to use the OP dropships as extra weapons.

I don't know how many times on all of the game modes, attack or defense when the attacking team did not bother to attack and just attempted to drag the game out by hiding in their spawn or when they were defending they sat on the hills PGI put into the game as a defensive block to protect the spawns and shot out of it, once again hiding in spawn and forcing the attacking team to kill them or be shot in the back while taking the gen's and Omega. Sorry but if your going to hide and shoot me in the back when I'm trying to end the drop, then I'm gonna come in your hiding place and blow you away and you can come here and QQ all you want about it.

[pwnface]

holy guacamole thIs thread.

I love the sound of crying PUGs in CW. Calling me a slew of profanities and a hacker is definitely going to get me to stop spawn camping you. Why are people so antisocial? Make a friend or two and play CW the way it's meant to be played.

[CDLord HHGD]

Only read the OP...

Remember, they do it not because they enjoy it, but because they want to prove to PGI how broke it is.

More than one Meta-hack-L33T-exploit-tryhard-warrior has told me so.

Edited by cdlord, 03 January 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[JaxRiot]

Leggin Ho, on 03 January 2016 - 05:52 AM, said:

Easier to just whine and scream how unfair it is then to use the tools made into the game for them.

If folks don't want to play as a team play the pug que, if folks don't want to be spawn camped, GET OUT OF SPAWN and stop trying to use the OP dropships as extra weapons.

I don't know how many times on all of the game modes, attack or defense when the attacking team did not bother to attack and just attempted to drag the game out by hiding in their spawn or when they were defending they sat on the hills PGI put into the game as a defensive block to protect the spawns and shot out of it, once again hiding in spawn and forcing the attacking team to kill them or be shot in the back while taking the gen's and Omega. Sorry but if your going to hide and shoot me in the back when I'm trying to end the drop, then I'm gonna come in your hiding place and blow you away and you can come here and QQ all you want about it.

But its not really just about Using the Tools right now though..

CW is seeing a spike in activity right now because there are a lot of new players from Steam. These newish players probably dont feel very comfortable trying to lead on Voip, and are still learning those maps and the strategic points.

Now throw in the fact that most pugs (even a pug of more experienced players) dont usually do well against an organized premade even if they use Voip, plus add in the the surge of new players, and ta-daa... lots of really bad pug stomping Voip or not.

And what makes it worse is that the Units are taking advantage of these new Pugs. They know how to read the maps and instead of fighting each other for that End Game challenge mode, they target the weaker opponents. More specifically Pugs if they can.

Then the Unit Players/ Vets come to the forums claiming that its all the New Players fault because they dont use Voip. As if Voip is one and only thing that they dont use that would turn the tide every time, and all the while knowing that the Pugs are at a disadvantage regardless of Voip and at an even bigger disadvantage because of all of the newer players.

Voip does help. But it is not the game changing, tide turning, magical key. It is just one tool available to everyone, but it is still no equalizer between experienced pre-made groups vs pugs.

[MechWarrior3671771]

DarthRevis, on 03 January 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

Quite a stretch there, altering game files PGI deemed not allowed being put on par with playing with a 12 man unit and playing well?

So by this logic 12 mans are cheating?

No. The argument of the r_glow defenders was "PGI hasn't expressly forbidden it so its allowed", along with all other kinds of lame excuses for why they use it (ie. we have to use it because everyone else does)

Kind of like this thread - a bunch of lame excuses to justify farming newbies for points, at the expense of gameplay.

[Kyynele]

I see VOIP mentioned so many times here that it's funny.

The truth is that the side that has more players that regularly do 2000+ dmg in a CW match is more likely to win.

The VOIP commanders I've seen so far have typically been the ones that can't deal 500 dmg with 4 mechs, and the reason they don't win as much as they'd like isn't that other people in their team aren't using VOIP, it's because they aren't the players that kill enough enemies to win matches.

Also, for the original topic, currently the only reason to play CW is getting C-Bills, and you don't get them from rushing objectives, you get them for destroying enemies. If you're killed at spawn, the game was over a long time ago, but the opposing force still has to wait for the last ones to drop so that they get their monies. Don't take it personally, blame the devs if you have to blame someone.

Edited by Kyynele, 03 January 2016 - 08:14 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Kyynele, on 03 January 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Don't take it personally, blame the devs if you have to blame someone.

See? Its the devs fault that I have to use r_glow. Its the devs fault that I have to spawncamp newbies in trial mechs.

Because I'm not responsible for my own actions. The devs made me do it!

[JaxRiot]

Fen Tetsudo, on 03 January 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

No. The argument of the r_glow defenders was "PGI hasn't expressly forbidden it so its allowed", along with all other kinds of lame excuses for why they use it (ie. we have to use it because everyone else does)

Kind of like this thread - a bunch of lame excuses to justify farming newbies for points, at the expense of gameplay.

I get what you are saying, and I agree for the most part.

However, can you blame them? Why risk a loss when in this game you can farm wins?

MWO is the only game I have ever seen that a Group can actually choose its targets and actually farm Pugs and also avoid any real opposition.

So why not farm pugs?

Its not like risking a loss against another group to hold/conquer a planet will give anything extra. There are no rewards for holding terretories. Its easier and more rewarding to forget about planets/territories and just farm the easy targets and avoid competition.

Im not saying I like it or agree with it. But I can see why they do it.

The path of least resistance and the most rewards I guess

Edit- The part that gets me is that these groups know what they are doing, but they come there trying to make excuse- Use Voip! Use Better Teamwork! Its PGI's Fault we can spawn camp you!

Ya ya ya blah blah blah... Theyre farming pugs. We all know it.. Just admit it. The game is set up so they can farm pugs so thats what they are doing. No reason to lie or justify it or make excuses or pass the blame

Edited by JaxRiot, 03 January 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Fen Tetsudo, on 03 January 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

See? Its the devs fault that I have to use r_glow. Its the devs fault that I have to spawncamp newbies in trial mechs.

Because I'm not responsible for my own actions. The devs made me do it!

I understand where you are coming from, and I do agree with you for the most part, however it IS the game the developers gave us.

The devs may not force people to spawn camp, but the devs made spawn camping possible in the game mode.
The devs made spawn camping give the most rewards.
The devs made spawn camping the most effective way to win.

Human nature is what it is. The player is investing a finite resource (time), and wants to maximize his utility. PGI has the ultimate responsibility to dis-incentivize those actions, instead they reward it.

[Weeny Machine]

pwnface, on 03 January 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

holy guacamole thIs thread.

I love the sound of crying PUGs in CW. Calling me a slew of profanities and a hacker is definitely going to get me to stop spawn camping you. Why are people so antisocial? Make a friend or two and play CW the way it's meant to be played.

Yup, PuGers are all anti-social. Totally. Do the tough guys in your unit chat tell that. You know, the ones without any hair on their scrotums?

[MischiefSC]

Leggin Ho, on 03 January 2016 - 05:52 AM, said:

Easier to just whine and scream how unfair it is then to use the tools made into the game for them.

If folks don't want to play as a team play the pug que, if folks don't want to be spawn camped, GET OUT OF SPAWN and stop trying to use the OP dropships as extra weapons.

I don't know how many times on all of the game modes, attack or defense when the attacking team did not bother to attack and just attempted to drag the game out by hiding in their spawn or when they were defending they sat on the hills PGI put into the game as a defensive block to protect the spawns and shot out of it, once again hiding in spawn and forcing the attacking team to kill them or be shot in the back while taking the gen's and Omega. Sorry but if your going to hide and shoot me in the back when I'm trying to end the drop, then I'm gonna come in your hiding place and blow you away and you can come here and QQ all you want about it.

So you rolled a pug group I was with yesterday. Kcom did. One of the biggest indicators of how people see this game and how they play the game is how they view a situation like that.

1. Is your attitude "This is so unfair, I never had a chance to win that match!"

2. Is your attitude "Why did they win and us lose?"
2a. "I lost because teams are OP vs Pugs!"
2b. "What did they do that won, what did we do that helped us lose?"

That's why I blame pugs for their own losses vs groups. I've been in pug groups that beat teams many, many times. Generally they are comprised of skilled team players. They play like a team, they work together, when we say push everyone pushes and it's a race to be first not a test to see who can be last.

Kcom, as an example, is a team comprised of some of the best players in the game who train together to get good. If I was in a 12man on coms we were not going to beat you. The idea that you should only play games you know you're probably going to win is the approach of people with no interest in actually getting better so much as being rewarded for being exactly what they already are.

That's why CW is awesome for some and horrible for others. There is no illusion that 'you're fine the way you are right now'. IT reminds you, consistently, that you need to get better and have plenty of room to do so. That's a hard thing to find in a game anymore.

Competitive tier teams are a tiny fraction of the teams playing in CW though. Generally the losses pugs suffer are to teams of people in non-meta mechs who just hang together and push together and coordinate a little. They lose because they play CW like it's a pug match. They hang back, they snipe at damaged enemies, they let their teammates go in alone, they don't hold a firing line when they get return fire, they don't PUSH in the push, they don't pay attention to the map. They pug, they get their cbills, they drop in the next match.

We already have that. To turn CW into that is just stupid.

[Celtic Warrior IS]

Mothermoy, on 01 January 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

To many people have lives and professions and just don't have the time to commit to a unit or group. So instead of this units making CW more pug friendly, they were all complete and total morons. it may not matter, but i for one am done with CW.

I have a career I also have two kids 14 and 15yrs old, you don't have to commit that much time to a unit to get drops. That being said you do need to pick the right unit however. I'm in SWOL and we are always dropping 2 to 4 12 mans on a regular basis and we have both clan and IS groups. I login and logoff as I would if I were pub dropping there is no commitment to log a certain amount of time.

[Fleeb the Mad]

I suppose the ultimate takeaway of this thread is CW can stay exactly as it is for all those people who want it to be MWO's hard mode. The adjustments to the public group queue actually seem to be effective and it's been much improved.

I've played CW only as a pugger. For the time investment in getting matches, I do not want to come away with a lopsided match that isn't any fun. I don't care about the size of the egos involved; if the gameplay is boring or frustrating, it's a waste of my time. I have actually played some units who, once they've built up a 10 or 15 kill lead against a pug team, move out from their positions and create a huge brawl in the middle of the map until everyone is dead. That part is fun, though having your first two waves getting focus fired into oblivion while trying to push is pretty craptastic. I've also been mercilessly spawn camped by people who only want to win. PUG wins happen, but good matches are actually rare.

Good matches are those with some form of contest, win or lose. CW categorically lacks in that aspect of gameplay compared to the public queue.

CW does not consistently deliver fun for nearly an hour's worth of my time, and I don't choose to participate any more. I hear you folks talking about getting a unit and getting organized, and I say I simply don't care enough about CW for the time investment. For all that fuss I'll go do something else. Playing in the group queue with a few buddies is much better now. I think you'll find most people aren't enamored enough with the CW mechanics to put up with the mode's numerous disadvantages.

In short, CW's population will always be tiny so long as its treated as a competitive venue with no matchmaking. People who want it that way need to stop talking in CW threads and read up on cause and effect, and people who want it to be more casual friendly need to find something else to do until PGI decides that's the direction they want to go. The absence of participation speaks volumes more than a forum post.

[Jon Gotham]

I uninstalled yesterday for the 6th time this year (!), I keep coming back-keep thinking it'll be better this time and keep running into threads like this, with the same anti group/teamwork/commitment/effort/whatever rhetoric.
I keep running in the same solo heroes who just won't listen, or talk/type. the same solo heroes who rage at the premades in all chat, calling them farmers or clubbers or worse.
It's farcical. This game is aimed at the wrong era of gamer, ten years ago when mmo players were not so anti social and hellbent on solo at all costs, it'd have worked better. I remember playing MW3 and MW4 in clans-never facing all the pro solo raging/whining, there was a sense of real community at work.
But here? LOL. I applaud those who keep trying, those in my faction the [DERP] and [NS] players who start up the random groups-the ones who talk to the solo pugs and try to get them on TS to join in and mix...I salute you for it.
But guys, you really are wasting your breath Just look at the toxic hate spewing aimed at group players on this thread alone, the lack of logic and reason on display-it's astounding.
Have any of you ever seen a "community" like this one? So determined and bent on solo-at-all-costs? PGI's only error was aiming the game at a point in time 10+ years ago.
Modern mmo gamers want super casual, throwaway time wastes of games-nothing more it seems.
Right I'm out, this thread is a standing monument to all I have just said, twisted caricatures of self deceit-it's INSANE guys.....

[MischiefSC]

Fleeb the Mad, on 03 January 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

I suppose the ultimate takeaway of this thread is CW can stay exactly as it is for all those people who want it to be MWO's hard mode. The adjustments to the public group queue actually seem to be effective and it's been much improved.

I've played CW only as a pugger. For the time investment in getting matches, I do not want to come away with a lopsided match that isn't any fun. I don't care about the size of the egos involved; if the gameplay is boring or frustrating, it's a waste of my time. I have actually played some units who, once they've built up a 10 or 15 kill lead against a pug team, move out from their positions and create a huge brawl in the middle of the map until everyone is dead. That part is fun, though having your first two waves getting focus fired into oblivion while trying to push is pretty craptastic. I've also been mercilessly spawn camped by people who only want to win. PUG wins happen, but good matches are actually rare.

Good matches are those with some form of contest, win or lose. CW categorically lacks in that aspect of gameplay compared to the public queue.

CW does not consistently deliver fun for nearly an hour's worth of my time, and I don't choose to participate any more. I hear you folks talking about getting a unit and getting organized, and I say I simply don't care enough about CW for the time investment. For all that fuss I'll go do something else. Playing in the group queue with a few buddies is much better now. I think you'll find most people aren't enamored enough with the CW mechanics to put up with the mode's numerous disadvantages.

In short, CW's population will always be tiny so long as its treated as a competitive venue with no matchmaking. People who want it that way need to stop talking in CW threads and read up on cause and effect, and people who want it to be more casual friendly need to find something else to do until PGI decides that's the direction they want to go. The absence of participation speaks volumes more than a forum post.

If you don't want a competitive environment, a war between factions where you're going to play against the other faction instead of play in curated, risk-managed matches where your opponents are carefully picked to be pretty close to yourself so you always have about even odds of winning no matter how good or bad you are...

go play in pug queue. It's fine, we all do it all the time. We already have that game environment. Go pug. That's cool, it has its own queue. It's already there.

CW does not need turned into the pug queue. If you play in CW you're joining a faction to make all out war on other factions for control of star systems. It's not a special league for ladder matches. You go in to help your faction win against other factions and you do it full on hardcore style. If that's not what you want then that's okay - CW isn't designed for what you're looking for.

We just really need CW gamemodes in pug queue.

[fbj]

SALTY