579 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AphexTwin11, on 04 November 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

I never said anything about equal fire power. I was just illustrating how ridiculous your example is regarding "fearing" assaults and lights equally.

It isn't ridiculous if the only thing you want to sell is assaults, that is why this game just like prior entries is once a race to the fatties, except unlike MW4, the assaults in this game are even more powerful (heavies were probably the best in MW4). That's why we haven't seen a new light announced in over a year, because they can't sell them near as well because no one wants to play them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 November 2016 - 12:00 PM.

[TercieI]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

That statement is actually so hilarious in such an enormous amount that I suddenly realize: this game isn't for you. Maybe try some fps multiplayer form the last century where there were no different classes and only one weapon.

Voila!

Now you can finally shine as much as your superior skill justifies because your competitive environment is so limited in an artificial way that you have to complain about latency, used peripherals or current time of day and your personal mental and bodily fitness which of course are closely connected to make your point: that you are better than crutch-Mech pilots.

Well that is your point, ain't it?

So you wanna play comp and ignore the meta. Way to go. Home.

Whatever you blathered in there, it wasn't my point, no. I just happen to like playing light mechs and while they're not the most powerful, they do have an important role in competitive play. It's not about ego of anything like that I just like the GTGFST high risk high reward playstyle. And as for ignoring the meta, I sure as heck don't. There are meta lights, too, you know. I'd love to play JR7-F in comp, but I'm not an idiot and this isn't two years ago.

Quicksilver spelled out in more detail what I was implying about balance. Mechs should be of similar value but with various strengths and weaknesses.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

That statement is actually so hilarious in such an enormous amount that I suddenly realize: this game isn't for you. Maybe try some fps multiplayer form the last century where there were no different classes and only one weapon.

Apparently you have never heard of games like TF2 or Overwatch where different classes are roughly balanced but play very differently (due to different strengths/weaknesses). People who say they want a game to be balance don't want a game with no classes and only one weapon, please stop using ignorant strawmen.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 November 2016 - 12:02 PM.

[Deathlike]

AphexTwin11, on 04 November 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

There is so much fail in your investment analogy, I just, can't, even.

Stick to the KDK-3. You actually made some reasonable points.

My point is simply that if you don't even know what you can do the mech, why are you complaining about others that do?

It is always possible that you're not "doing it right" if you're achieving mediocre performance with it.

I don't pretend to think there are people that struggle with metamechs. It happens a lot more than we think. Until people are trained to use them properly (ideally optimally), then you're never going to maximize its potential.

It's like watching players run LRMs on a Dire Wolf.... not even a Medium or Heavy... a Dire Wolf. Then again I watch the guy in the LRM Atlas get wrecked.

Oh well.

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

I'm smoking you bro. But you already noticed.

lol ok. If you say so.

Buy me a Kodiak. UNLEASH ME!!!!!11!!

[Deathlike]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

Didn't you just lie you are piloting them?

Were you reading?

I don't have them, but am planning on buying them if no nerfs are coming to the KDK-3 this upcoming patch.

I have piloted Assaults... but I prefer to pilot Lights.

I'm not sure what's unclear about that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

that there is more of a reson between a different person than in 75´tons of equipment and armor discrepancy.

And what reason is that exactly, to be objectively worse than heavier mechs? Exactly how does that help the game?

That is essentially the crux of the issue, the only reason we didn't see only 8 Kodiaks vs 8 Kodiaks in the MWOWC is because of class limits. Even then there is a problem with a game that forces players to play less useful and by extension less fun units to play when we are talking about a PvP game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 November 2016 - 12:13 PM.

[Sjorpha]

AphexTwin11, just stop. Please. You don't know anything about competitive play and it shows. I'm not claiming to know as much as Quicksilver and others, but I do actually play some comp from time to time at my comparably measly skill level and I do actually try to keep myself informed, BY the people who play better, and who knows better. If you want to improve, the first thing to accept is that there are actual differences here, you don't start out understanding a game better that players at the peak of comp, some humility please.

You think the kdk 3 is fine in tier 3 quickplay. Ok, that's fine, opinion noted. I disagree with that, it's imbalanced in QP too, but quickplay solo queue is certainly chaotic and potato sprinkled enough that overpowered mechs don't actually break the game. It's not a huge problem there, I agree, because there is no way to consistently leverage big imbalances there beyond racking up huge personal scores, which is pretty much fine in most cases.

Don't try to argue that it doesn't break the game at other levels because it absolutely does and the players playing there knows it. It is a huge problem in every venue where there is either play at high skill level, or where one or both sides are well coordinated. That means it's a problem in group queue, Faction warfare and every instance of competitive play where Kodiaks are a legal pick.

So there is a larger balance issue context to this, that the kdk 3 is a symbol of. When you combine clan tech with optimal design you get mechs that are severely overpowered in the current metagame. That needs to be fixed ASAP.

It's going to rear it's ugly head again and again if the only answer is directed nerfs to specific chassis, the tech bases needs to be properly balanced so you can actually release mechs like the Kodiak without creating huge balance issues every time. The bane is coming sooner or later, and so on, we better have this fixed by then.

Edited by Sjorpha, 04 November 2016 - 12:31 PM.

[TercieI]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

Lmao. So I was absolutely right. Too bad that there are 70 tons of equipment between your wish and reality. I'm so glad this game isn't that bad that your "vision" has even a slight chance of becoming reality at any point.

I love that you think you're winning this argument. But not enough to keep wasting keystrokes on you.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

So you want to shift the meta to where you don't want to have it? That's clever man, I'm so surpised.

What are you even talking about, him finally giving in and taking a Kodiak isn't going to shift the meta because it has already shifted there........

[Deathlike]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

So you want to shift the meta to where you don't want to have it? That's clever man, I'm so surpised.

You're speaking as if I wanted the meta shifting towards Kodiaks. I mean, are you saying I have the balance overlord's ear on quirks? I mean, I already have lots to say (at how terrible he is).

I'm only saying what the meta is.

My issue with the meta is totally independent of what I own or don't own.

[Deathlike]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

That's not essentially the crux of the issue, that's the base of the game. You expect a 20 ton Mech to have the firepower and durability of a 100 ton Mech? Delusions. This PVP game has asymmetric gameplay. Ever heard of the term? It's there to keep things interesting and provide a challenge.

Why are you continuing to use strawman arguments when it doesn't help your position? Noone asked for a Lolcust to be as strong as a Kodiak.

[Deathlike]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Finally you got the topic what you want it to be about, right. I give a crap about your issues. Apparently the Kodiak isn't as gamebreaking for you to refuse to add to the problem and not pilot one, so just shut it.

It is gamebreaking. It is always my priority target.

You think not owning it means I don't understand that I have to kill it first and foremost?

Do you think that people don't pay attention to things that demand attention?

[MechaBattler]

It's a better Atlas? High mounted weapons. Able to boat lasers or ballistics. And of course Clan weapons. That's putting it in the simplest terms.

[MischiefSC]

What i love is the terribads telling the people who create and define the meta how the meta works and how the game "actually plays".


It's funny and magical.

Maybr it can be better put this way - nobody whos opinion is taken seriously by competitive and succesful players at large says the KDK 3 is balanced and all available fsmeplay telemetry from events and tournaments says the the KDK3 isn't OP.

Yes, at scrub tier QP matches average players don't notice KDK3s being OP. That is part of what seperates being good from mediocre - the ability to notice, identify, understand and adapt to things like that.

When all the telemetry and best players are seeing something and confirming something and you're not, problem is probably you.

Edited by MischiefSC, 04 November 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[AphexTwin11]

Sjorpha, on 04 November 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

AphexTwin11, just stop. Please. You don't know anything about competitive play and it shows. I'm not claiming to know as much as Quicksilver and others, but I do actually play some comp from time to time at my comparably measly skill level and I do actually try to keep myself informed, BY the people who play better, and who knows better. If you want to improve, the first thing to accept is that there are actual differences here, you don't start out understanding a game better that players at the peak of comp, some humility please.

You think the kdk 3 is fine in tier 3 quickplay. Ok, that's fine, opinion noted. I disagree with that, it's imbalanced in QP too, but quickplay solo queue is certainly chaotic and potato sprinkled enough that overpowered mechs don't actually break the game. It's not a huge problem there, I agree, because there is no way to consistently leverage big imbalances there beyond racking up huge personal scores, which is pretty much fine in most cases.

Don't try to argue that it doesn't break the game at other levels because it absolutely does and the players playing there knows it. It is a huge problem in every venue where there is either play at high skill level, or where one or both sides are well coordinated. That means it's a problem in group queue, Faction warfare and every instance of competitive play where Kodiaks are a legal pick.

So there is a larger balance issue context to this, that the kdk 3 is a symbol of. When you combine clan tech with optimal design you get mechs that are severely overpowered in the current metagame. That needs to be fixed ASAP.

It's going to rear it's ugly head again and again if the only answer is directed nerfs to specific chassis, the tech bases needs to be properly balanced so you can actually release mechs like the Kodiak without creating huge balance issues every time. The bane is coming sooner or later, and so on, we better have this fixed by then.

PS: super 1337 "comp tier" doesn't define the game for the vast majority of the population.

Double PS: I can't 'just stop'. I must defend the KDK-3, and all other mechs unjustly persecuted & threatened with nerf beatings via forum whine. Plus, this is a fun alternative to the relatively mundane tasks I get at work ;-)

Edited by AphexTwin11, 04 November 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Ever heard of the term? It's there to keep things interesting and provide a challenge.

Speaking of delusions, that is not why it exists, even PGI had not intended it to be that way, or did you miss their role warfare pillar?

Sorry but how that actually works out in practice is no one plays that character/unit/whatever nor are they willing to spend money towards that. If this game has started off selling us that premise (so selling it to us like MW4), people would have spent much less money towards lights because the hope they would actually be balanced against heavier chassis in some fashion would never have been there in the first place. In fact, I'm willing to bet PGI would've created even less light mechs than they have currently because they wouldn't have sold well at all and since they cost about the same to make those assets that translates to less profit from lights.

Sorry, but the idea of having objectively worse units in a PvP game, much less a F2P game makes no business or gameplay sense. That is why you will always seem "asymmetric" gameplay as you put it, not revolving around the power of a unit/character in a successful PvP FPS.

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

I didn't say it helps but this is what the game is about. Like ever.

Says who, because the devs didn't sell that in their original vision and that facet (the idea of lights not just being stepping stones to heavier mechs) was considered one of the improvements over the rest of the series by most players.

If it doesn't help, then if this game wants to be more successful, then it should probably change, regardless whether you yourself consider it "ridiculous." Unless this game becomes single player only, the notion that some mechs being worse than others is just something that we should accept because that's the way it was in TT or how it was in prior entries is moronic and overall not good for the game (kills variety and interest in playing different classes).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 November 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[Kanil]

AphexTwin11, on 04 November 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

PS: super 1337 "comp tier" doesn't define the game for the vast majority of the population.

It should, though. If you listen to potato tier, you end up hearing things like "lights are overpowered".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kanil, on 04 November 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

It should, though. If you listen to potato tier, you end up hearing things like "lights are overpowered".

It is more because in QP what you take matters less because of the nature of QP (uncoordinated, more varying skill levels, etc). Balance is less likely to impact QP as much as it does comp not to mention balance will also be different between the two since the uncoordinated nature makes certain things much harder for QP (brawling and extreme range for example).

[Osis]

Hail,

Back to the original poster, point and click adventures minus real gameplay. I blame PGI for spending so much time talking balance, releasing the KDK-3 knowing full well the outcome and waiting for the nerf posts.

It is made worse by most of the map redesigns opening things up, that is why when HPG Manifold comes up as a option it is a sure bet your playing on it. Terra Therma redesign is ignored now, unless the other maps suck more in the rotation.

But hey, many players do not look at STATS.

If you are not doing 700-800 in a KDK-3 then put the Mr Blastman "Terribad" hat on.

Seyla,

Edited by Osis, 04 November 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[MischiefSC]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

Got a quick question about "scrub tier". You are referring to every tier below 1 right? I'm just curious.

Talk about funny and magical.

Nope. There are scrubs on every tier.

It's like someone who drives to work every day vs a pro stunt driver or NASCAR driver. Yes, they both drive. What they understand about driving is vastly different.

So we have a car that the NASCAR guy and the pro stunt driver says is way better and that type of car wins way more than the others, all the pro car mechsnics have also said it's just a better car. This upsets racing balance, obviously.

However we've got some guys who say they don't see that car making trouble on their daily commute and when they stuff it with groceries, run bad tires and watery gas through it then it's not that different.

This isn't a serious discussion. The seriois discussion happened with the comp tier players and was tested out in trial matches, in MWOWC and MRBC between people who actually understand balance and performance. Topics like this are just clarifying the specific performance issues and a few people who don't understand being publically very, demonstratively, wrong.